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Post by mike on Jul 23, 2019 8:14:33 GMT -6
venge , Some of us have heard your stance on the signs in stars before. Its ok that you dont see the Rev 12 sign that many believe happened on Sept 23, 2017. All of the other signs Jesus mentioned in those same passages are before our eyes converging. As that sign is further in our rear view, I see the others growing in frequency and intensity (much like labor) However just because you do not agree does not discount it. Think of the Magi brother. They followed a star in the sky, right? Was that astrology? I dont think so, maybe it was, what do you think? EDIT - I have been reading along and do not disagree with earthquakes being either physical or political or both. I do have a hard time seeing the signs in the heavens differently than literal. How do you see them or explain your view? Thanks
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Post by venge on Jul 23, 2019 13:40:55 GMT -6
venge said: Ummm... Luke 21:25 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven In your first verse...the roaring of the seas are the kingdom’s of earth shouting and the surging of waves are the people fighting. This would make the beginning of the statement match the latter: the sun and moon are representing what they do and what their removal means. Not literal sun and moon. The same with Matt 24 and Mark 13. Unless you are still waiting for stars to fall to earth. Not meteorites, but stars. And the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Can you shake God’s power? Who can? Yet it will be. If you take that literally, you cannot explain it against God but figuratively you can. Sun - Daylight will grow dark spiritually Moon - The little light that is in darkness will be almost non existent And those up on high will be thrown back to earth for they put themselves on The pinnacles of the world and will be removed. The rich and poor will both hide themselves. There is no special place for the proud to hide over the poor, they both have nothing and hide in the caves. But this topic needs to stay on point. How do you view the thunder and lightning in heaven? Literal or figuratively? We don’t see it in heaven, yet it happens. From your literal perspective, in the 6th seal, if the stars fall to earth and the sun and moon are darkened for the duration of this Tribulation, why in in Rev 8:12 we see: 12Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun and moon and stars were struck. A third of the stars were darkened, a third of the day was without light, and a third of the night as well. The stars are back and didn’t all fall and they must have had light cause now they are darkened. Moon and sun too. |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 23, 2019 14:45:50 GMT -6
venge said: Ummm... Luke 21:25 There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among the nations, bewildered by the roaring of the sea and the surging of the waves.
Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven The 'heaven' referred to in red above is the same greek root word οὐρανοῦ (ouranou) found in Rev 12:1 and 12:3 (Strong's 3772) which has been clearly shown to refer to outer space, rather than the spiritual heaven. The site search engine for 'Rev 12 sign' will pull up the relevant studies which have been done here, independently of other places, as we had several long discussions (over months) just prior to September 23, 2017. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 23, 2019 15:22:03 GMT -6
dearest brother in Christ spiritually, would you like a second chance at rephrasing this so as not to belittle my stance?
"most of those who would focus professionally on Biblical exegesis, would take the position that one would compare the same word used in multiple locations in scripture with the context of those locations, and then interpret that word when used in the same context elsewhere as meaning the same thing." AH, the famous universally approved way of man to share the insights of the Word. It's hermeneutics stated another way..
When a person hands out the Book of John on the street corner is there a pamphlet on hermeneutics in there too, or are we to trust the Holy Spirit to take over?
here is what I think of hermeneutics: hermeneutics = spiritual darkness
I felt I laid out a pretty good case by what Paul had to say about the Spirit and the discernment thereof. Personally, the only professionals that I tend to lend an ear to are Paul and apostles for they were eyewitnesses, but more than that the number one professional of impressing upon my heart as to what the Revealing vision is trying to say is the Holy Spirit.
here is a quote tho from a "professional" just in case my point of view lacks credentials...
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Post by yardstick on Jul 23, 2019 15:41:03 GMT -6
venge , Some of us have heard your stance on the signs in stars before. Its ok that you dont see the Rev 12 sign that many believe happened on Sept 23, 2017. All of the other signs Jesus mentioned in those same passages are before our eyes converging. As that sign is further in our rear view, I see the others growing in frequency and intensity (much like labor) However just because you do not agree does not discount it. Think of the Magi brother. They followed a star in the sky, right? Was that astrology? I dont think so, maybe it was, what do you think? EDIT - I have been reading along and do not disagree with earthquakes being either physical or political or both. I do have a hard time seeing the signs in the heavens differently than literal. How do you see them or explain your view? Thanks I too contemplate signs in the heavens (especially when that express phrase is used) to mean stuff which happens in outer space. So long as such events are not causatively viewed, the event itself and its interpretation cannot be (imho) astrology. Why? Because astrology by its self-interpretation says that the star patterns have a causative nature. Thus, the 'great sign in heaven' in 2017 could not have been astrology in an of itself. I will admit that some interpretations of that sign were astrological in nature, due to their causative conclusions. However, I am also certain that those interpretations were made without malice or intent to be astrological in nature. I would exclude those who were purposeful in using the sign to promote their youtube vids or make money from exegizing their opinions. I currently hold the view that such signs were time markers, or waypoints to encourage believers. Why? What kind of effect would it have on you, if you just saw ANY prophecy (let alone the Rev 12 sign) fulfilled before your very eyes? To assign a causative nature to the sign itself (this I believe were some proponent's error - that it meant the harpazo would occur on 9/23/17 -rather than it could occur) - THIS is astrology - the sign causes the harpazo. Using Christ and the scriptures alone to give a full and complete picture of any given event, is okay; but is not mandated by scripture (notwithstanding the mandate to test all things against scripture) but leaves one open to the possibility of missing a signal, which was provided by another means. But to discard signs in the heavens (ouranos) out of hand, simply because they are a signal not directly from the scriptures, also means that the following scriptures must be similarly discarded out of hand: Gen 1:14 Interestingly, an analysis of Strong's 3772 shows the following usage patterns (notice some of the parallels between spelling variants, and how they are used and defined): (1) οὐρανὸς - used like 'outer space' Matthew 5:18 Matthew 24:35Mark 13:31Luke 4:25 Luke 21:33Acts 7:49 James 5:18 Revelation 6:14 (2) οὐρα νοί - 'sky', like the atmosphere Matthew 3:16 (3) οὐρα νῶν - used like 'spiritual heaven' Matthew 3:2 Matthew 3:17 Matthew 4:17 Matthew 5:3 Matthew 5:10 Matthew 5:19 (2x) Matthew 5:20 (4) οὐρα νῷ - used like 'power of heaven' Matthew 5:34 Matthew 6:10 Matthew 6:20 Luke 6:23 (5) οὐρα νοῖς- used like a [geographic] location (i.e. 'kingdom' of heaven in a locality sense) Matthew 5:12 Matthew 5:16 Matthew 5:45 Matthew 6:1 Matthew 6:9 Matthew 7:11 Mark 12:25 (6) οὐρα νοῦ - 'air', used like 'up in the air' Matthew 6:26 Mark 14:62 Luke 9:54 Luke 9:58 Luke 10:18 John 6:38 (7) οὐρα νὸν - used in a directional sense, like οὐρανοῖς is used for locality Matthew 14:19 Mark 16:19 Luke 3:21 John 17:1 Acts 1:10 (8) οὐρα νόν - possible variant spelling (diacritic mark) Acts 1:11 Acts 2:5 (8) οὐρα νοὺς - possible grammatical variant to (1) Mark 1:10 Acts 2:34 There are more in each category. The usage locations I listed are there to demonstrate how variants in a word are used and to point out some significant places as part of this discussion. The full list of occurrences can be found here. even children can be signs: Isaiah 8:18 |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 23, 2019 15:46:50 GMT -6
dearest brother in Christ spiritually, would you like a second chance at rephrasing this so as not to belittle my stance?
"most of those who would focus professionally on Biblical exegesis, would take the position that one would compare the same word used in multiple locations in scripture with the context of those locations, and then interpret that word when used in the same context elsewhere as meaning the same thing." AH, the famous universally approved way of man to share the insights of the Word. It's hermeneutics stated another way.. When a person hands out the Book of John on the street corner is there a pamphlet on hermeneutics in there too, or are we to trust the Holy Spirit to take over? here is what I think of hermeneutics: hermeneutics = spiritual darkness I felt I laid out a pretty good case by what Paul had to say about the Spirit and the discernment thereof. Personally, the only professionals that I tend to lend an ear to are Paul and apostles for they were eyewitnesses, but more than that the number one professional of impressing upon my heart as to what the Revealing vision is trying to say is the Holy Spirit. here is a quote tho from a "professional" just in case my point of view lacks credentials... You may be right on calling me on the term 'professional' - my intent was to indicate those who study the original manuscripts for purposes of interpretation of words that will be translated into Bibles. It may also be considered for those who have received formal training in the appropriate languages and how to properly demonstrate the grammar and usage of the original words which may have been - due to the typical difficulty with translating from one language to another - improperly or incorrectly worded in any given Bible 'translation' If you think another word is more appropriate, please DO edit my post with the incorrect word lined out and a [better word] inserted. I dont mind if you annotate at the bottom why you believe the inserted word is better. |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 23, 2019 17:12:07 GMT -6
dearest brother in Christ spiritually, would you like a second chance at rephrasing this so as not to belittle my stance?
"most of those who would focus professionally on Biblical exegesis, would take the position that one would compare the same word used in multiple locations in scripture with the context of those locations, and then interpret that word when used in the same context elsewhere as meaning the same thing." AH, the famous universally approved way of man to share the insights of the Word. It's hermeneutics stated another way.. When a person hands out the Book of John on the street corner is there a pamphlet on hermeneutics in there too, or are we to trust the Holy Spirit to take over? here is what I think of hermeneutics: hermeneutics = spiritual darkness I felt I laid out a pretty good case by what Paul had to say about the Spirit and the discernment thereof. Personally, the only professionals that I tend to lend an ear to are Paul and apostles for they were eyewitnesses, but more than that the number one professional of impressing upon my heart as to what the Revealing vision is trying to say is the Holy Spirit. here is a quote tho from a "professional" just in case my point of view lacks credentials... You may be right on calling me on the term 'professional' - my intent was to indicate those who study the original manuscripts for purposes of interpretation of words that will be translated into Bibles. It may also be considered for those who have received formal training in the appropriate languages and how to properly demonstrate the grammar and usage of the original words which may have been - due to the typical difficulty with translating from one language to another - improperly or incorrectly worded in any given Bible 'translation' If you think another word is more appropriate, please DO edit my post with the incorrect word lined out and a [better word] inserted. I dont mind if you annotate at the bottom why you believe the inserted word is better. I should further clarify that is is not hermeneutics I am referring to. It is linguistics. If I understand correctly, hermeneutics is usecd to convert biblical concepts via interpretation into doctrine. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 23, 2019 17:32:53 GMT -6
and indeed, yardstick, there have been translations of the copies of the copies, and so the words used in those copies needed to be translated correctly. But this is not what we are talking about. If I am John and used the word for thunder in the greek, with a Hebrew background, it will be translated thunder in English. Its not the word thunder itself but what the vision indicates when it is using the word thunder. Yes it says lightning it says it in greek too and there is word in Hebrew for it too, even used the same way in other places. BUT...but that does not mean that the vision pertains to those other places in the Bible. Maybe so, maybe like it; The psalms are quite spiritually creative and mirror parts of Rev, so does nearly the entire book of Isaiah. sorry if I did not take your comment that you were addressing translations. I took it as you saying the word can only be assessed the way it is assessed in other places in the Bible. and that this assessment has been done and is supported by people 'in the know' or who are scholars or something, who have credentials, et al. And I am saying that we must not forget that John is in the SPIRIT when he was shown these things about Jesus. The point of view from a heavenly dimension outward to earth (from one dimension to another) is not necessarily an EXACT copy of the word used to describe it. This, I believe is the point of venge's thread. In re: to the Rev 12, I am with you on that. CH 12 of Rev does not flow from ch 11, but is as if it is another viewpoint. One can still be in the Spirit and see something in the "heavens" as the "heavens" are also physical from our fleshly viewpoint. I agree with this. I think he is seeing the things on the earth and then is shown something physically above the earth or shining down on earth, namely the constellation virgo, the planets that aligned and it was on purpose to have both sun and moon as this deignates the Fall Feast. John does not report I saw virgo and a bunch of the planets lined up and Jupiter retrograded within the constellation long enough to simulate a pregnancy. NO, this it the literal physical version. He literally saw the stars that make up this alignment but this alignment came with wisdom WHILE IN THE SPIRIT! By the way venge, the planets and sun and moon do not move randomly. They are a CLOCK of God. The probability of the Rev 12 sign and they way it came about and its duration is about a gazillion to the power of gazillion. Gazillion is a spiritual term for infinite... |
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Post by yardstick on Jul 23, 2019 18:34:41 GMT -6
and indeed, yardstick , there have been translations of the copies of the copies, and so the words used in those copies needed to be translated correctly. But this is not what we are talking about. If I am John and used the word for thunder in the greek, with a Hebrew background, it will be translated thunder in English. Its not the word thunder itself but what the vision indicates when it is using the word thunder. Yes it says lightning it says it in greek too and there is word in Hebrew for it too, even used the same way in other places. BUT...but that does not mean that the vision pertains to those other places in the Bible. Maybe so, maybe like it; The psalms are quite spiritually creative and mirror parts of Rev, so does nearly the entire book of Isaiah. sorry if I did not take your comment that you were addressing translations. I took it as you saying the word can only be assessed the way it is assessed in other places in the Bible. and that this assessment has been done and is supported by people 'in the know' or who are scholars or something, who have credentials, et al. And I am saying that we must not forget that John is in the SPIRIT when he was shown these things about Jesus. The point of view from a heavenly dimension outward to earth (from one dimension to another) is not necessarily an EXACT copy of the word used to describe it. This, I believe is the point of venge 's thread. In re: to the Rev 12, I am with you on that. CH 12 of Rev does not flow from ch 11, but is as if it is another viewpoint. One can still be in the Spirit and see something in the "heavens" as the "heavens" are also physical from our fleshly viewpoint. I agree with this. I think he is seeing the things on the earth and then is shown something physically above the earth or shining down on earth, namely the constellation virgo, the planets that aligned and it was on purpose to have both sun and moon as this deignates the Fall Feast. John does not report I saw virgo and a bunch of the planets lined up and Jupiter retrograded within the constellation long enough to simulate a pregnancy. NO, this it the literal physical version. He literally saw the stars that make up this alignment but this alignment came with wisdom WHILE IN THE SPIRIT! By the way venge , the planets and sun and moon do not move randomly. They are a CLOCK of God. The probability of the Rev 12 sign and they way it came about and its duration is about a gazillion to the power of gazillion. Gazillion is a spiritual term for infinite... No worries BSG! Thank you for helping me clarify! I am willing to admit someone with a PhD in ancient greek linguistics is going to know a LOT more about how to interpret ancient greek than I am, and so I must defer to their expertise. Same for hebrew, et al. When I read Thayer's greek lexicon from Bible hub, I am going to defer to how the people who are formally trained in the interpretation of the grammar and spelling of greek to explain to me, in plain english what a single word which properly translated to a phrase means, and I am going to want to know why that single word is only represented as a single word in the Bible (instead of the aforesaid phrase). And a lot of times, there's a single reason: money. It costs money to print each page. So keeping page count down by concise use of words (including translating 10 variant spellings of 'ouranos' to 'heaven' instead of some of the examples I gave) is likely to happen. Too bad the publishers don't let everyone else know. WE have to go dig it out of Strong's, or Thayer's or whatever. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 23, 2019 21:33:52 GMT -6
for the sake of fun yardstick, what if someone had no access to thayers or strong's, but had a lowly 200 year old Baptist version bible or it was a german bible and they had a german to English translator dictionary to help them read their german bible. AND, for the sake of sakes they were drawn to the BOR, and well, had a perspective shown to them...and shared it with friends. Is the person's viewpoint valid? even if this is too far out there, what if a person threw out their thayers or strongs, or even the biblehub and best ever, threw out anybody else's opinon of Rev, and wanted the Lord to show them what the Revealing manuscripts of Jesus, meant? IS that possible? |
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Post by mike on Jul 24, 2019 3:22:07 GMT -6
for the sake of fun yardstick , what if someone had no access to thayers or strong's, but had a lowly 200 year old Baptist version bible or it was a german bible and they had a german to English translator dictionary to help them read their german bible. AND, for the sake of sakes they were drawn to the BOR, and well, had a perspective shown to them...and shared it with friends. Is the person's viewpoint valid? even if this is too far out there, what if a person threw out their thayers or strongs, or even the biblehub and best ever, threw out anybody else's opinon of Rev, and wanted the Lord to show them what the Revealing manuscripts of Jesus, meant? IS that possible? No...no one has Rev properly interpreted, no one. There are things that are written plainly and there are things that are not. Though we desire to understand, sometimes we must accept that we dont, wont or cant. EDIT - After I wrote the above I'm reminded of Deut 29:29 - In addition BSG I get that your comment was for fun, but thinking it through more, its simply not what we have. We have those great tools at our disposal to help us understand. Play along with me, read these verses at their face value without trying to interpret their understanding using Greek  Rev 20:10 - how do you read forever and ever? Rev 21:1 - in context, how do you see the sea? Rev 21:10 - what is this mountain? |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 24, 2019 7:02:17 GMT -6
Rev 20:10 - how do you read forever and ever?
I would read this term forever and ever as a time term.
Rev 21:1 - in context, how do you see the sea?
for a sea to be gone we see earlier that a beast comes out of the sea, which tells me it might be a group of people of which are not the same category as those of the earth, but there is no need for them as they perhaps have all come to believe
Rev 21:10 - what is this mountain?
I view mountains as groups of people as well and this verse even adds in there is a city coming down so this mountain sionce it is great and high is a multitude who are receiving the Kingdom. There are already other occupants within the kingdom, since it is considered a city..
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Jul 24, 2019 7:53:51 GMT -6
Let's be sure we are understanding what took place here in conversation after venge had been laying out verses in support of what he is seeing the thunder and lightning to mean in Rev. yardstick responded and said this: then I barbiosheepgirl said this: then yardstick said this: this comment by yardstick still does not address my point. For the record YES the translators did their work involving whatever it took to be as exact to the original copies of the copies and to be as exact as they can with the English language from the greek and the Hebrew. And YES it is great to have these extra tools to understand a context, especially for the first 65 books of the Bible. I am not disagreeing with the methods of trying to understand a passage by using other passages etc. If this is called linguistics, it is likely what I have been doing in studying the Word. MY POINT has everything to do with the Book of the Revelation of the Word. To meditate on Revelation is not the same as meditating on John's other epistles. John writing in greek with a Hebrew understanding of his vision is helpful, but he was in a different dimension when he was shown things. So a seismos was his word he used because from the perspective that is what it was spritially, YET the things in his vision are not and cannot be exact copies of what is going on physically. What happens on earth looks different from the dimension of being in the spirit. Why? Because me sitting here as a sinner, of which sins are committed by me randomly thruout my life, yesterday likely today and even tomorrow, from the heavenly point of view (that other dimension), I have been washed clean. I physically look in the mirror at my flesh and say egads! and the Lord is looking from His dimension says, "My dearest child" Am I wrong here? |
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Post by mike on Jul 24, 2019 9:30:38 GMT -6
Rev 20:10 - how do you read forever and ever? I would read this term forever and ever as a time term. Rev 21:1 - in context, how do you see the sea? for a sea to be gone we see earlier that a beast comes out of the sea, which tells me it might be a group of people of which are not the same category as those of the earth, but there is no need for them as they perhaps have all come to believe Rev 21:10 - what is this mountain? I view mountains as groups of people as well and this verse even adds in there is a city coming down so this mountain sionce it is great and high is a multitude who are receiving the Kingdom. There are already other occupants within the kingdom, since it is considered a city.. Thank you and venge I apologize for getting off the topic (a little). With on-line dialogue sometimes it is hard for us to understand one another. BSG - if the mountain in Rev 21:10 is a multitude of people, what is the mountain here Matt 4:8? |
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Post by stormyknight on Jul 24, 2019 11:42:42 GMT -6
For the sake of clarity. Linguistics: the scientific study of language and its structure, including the study of morphology, syntax, phonetics, and semantics. Specific branches of linguistics include sociolinguistics, dialectology, psycholinguistics, computational linguistics, historical-comparative linguistics, and applied linguistics.
Hermeneutics: the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts. "the theory and methodology of interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts."
I would warn, though, that when dealing with hermeneutics, the root of that word is from Hermes, who was the greek "messenger of the gods". From Wikipedia: "Folk etymology places its origin with Hermes, the mythological Greek deity who was the 'messenger of the gods'."
BUT, not only that, Hermes was the god of trade, heraldry, merchants, commerce, roads, thieves, trickery, sports, travelers, and athletes. He was also "the divine trickster" and "the god of boundaries and the transgression of boundaries..."
It is easy to read a thing and look up the definition and on we go, but things are not always what they seem. We must be hyper-aware. We are very much dealing with one of the principalities and powers of the heavenly realms. Some may believe that the old Greek and Roman,(Egyptian, Sumerian, etc.) gods were just make believe. I've learned to not pass them off as such. We must always remember that Satan and any other fallen angel will do everything possible to divert us from the truth. I believe they delight in our sometimes heated arguments here.
Peace and Love, brothers and sisters.
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