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Post by Natalie on Dec 22, 2018 21:21:53 GMT -6
I would say that the penalty is broken fellowship with Him and He disciplines those that are His (I will look that one up in a minute)
1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 22, 2018 21:28:22 GMT -6
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by Him.
For the Lord disciplines the one He loves,
and chastises every son whom He receives." (Prov 3:11-12, quoted in Heb 12:5-6)
God will deal with the sin in our lives. I have had things come up that I didn't realize were sins until God put His finger on it, so to speak. Other times I may be holding on to some sin (and feeling guilty and miserable) and that is also God's discipline. It's how I break that law of liberty and how He deals with it. Each situation is different, just like any parent and child. But the only penalty being a broken relationship and the need to come to Him for forgiveness. (Which He won't withhold because it was all taken care of on the cross.)
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 22, 2018 22:39:34 GMT -6
But how do you sin against the law of Faith in [Romans 3] when there is no sin? It's nailed to the cross. Gone! You're justified! NOT GUILTY!
But you can sin against the law of liberty [James 2] and be in violation of all of the law... GUILTY
It's a paradox!
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 22, 2018 22:58:48 GMT -6
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by Him. For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives." (Prov 3:11-12, quoted in Heb 12:5-6) God will deal with the sin in our lives. I have had things come up that I didn't realize were sins until God put His finger on it, so to speak. Other times I may be holding on to some sin (and feeling guilty and miserable) and that is also God's discipline. It's how I break that law of liberty and how He deals with it. Each situation is different, just like any parent and child. But the only penalty being a broken relationship and the need to come to Him for forgiveness. (Which He won't withhold because it was all taken care of on the cross.) I believe you are mixing law of Moses (we need justification) with law of liberty (you are free from the law of Moses, justified). God deals with sin (violations of the law of Moses) as you have pointed out also by sending his Son to the cross. However, the law of liberty is applied AFTER we have already believed in Jesus... We are not held accountable to the law of Moses as it has been nailed to the cross. But according to James, we are held accountable to sin against the law of liberty. |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 22, 2018 23:25:03 GMT -6
^^^Baptized in the name of Jesus, not a river, stream, sea or any body of water. Repent as in change your mind and understand that the only way sins have been forgiven is by the power of God, not something we do ourselves. Any form of thinking or reasoning that there is an ounce of something we could ever do to ensure salvation is our pride and arrogance in ourselves and not faith that God did this. All of it for all his creation and it was His plan all along.
EDITING TO ADD: When things are taken out of or added to the context, Scriptures are misunderstood. In non of these verses given does it say baptized in literal water after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and after the Holy Spirit came. Yes it was done in water as a demonstration of what Jesus was going to do with his blood shed to wash away our sins. mike makes a very valid point and poses good questions. Did Peter baptize people in water as part of their salvation process? What in the world was the Acts 8, last part of 10, and first part of 11 all about if not water baptism...? ^^^Baptized in the name of Jesus, not a river, stream, sea or any body of water. Repent as in change your mind and understand that the only way sins have been forgiven is by the power of God, not something we do ourselves. Any form of thinking or reasoning that there is an ounce of something we could ever do to ensure salvation is our pride and arrogance in ourselves and not faith that God did this. All of it for all his creation and it was His plan all along.
EDITING TO ADD: When things are taken out of or added to the context, Scriptures are misunderstood. In non of these verses given does it say baptized in literal water after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and after the Holy Spirit came. Yes it was done in water as a demonstration of what Jesus was going to do with his blood shed to wash away our sins. mike makes a very valid point and poses good questions. Did Peter baptize people in water as part of their salvation process? What in the world was the Acts 8, last part of 10, and first part of 11 all about if not water baptism...? Some received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, some after, some after hands were laid on them by a disciple. A water baptism had and has nothing to do with salvation. It was an act to symbolize the washing of their sins. A symbolic act. Baptizing does not actually wash away our sins. Jesus did that. This is no different today in regards to baptism. I have never been baptized, so what does this mean for me? Unfortunately when we start to pick and choose and try to rationalize what counts us as saved or unsaved, or multiple gospels for different groups of people and them having different things required of them to achieve salvation, things get sticky rather quickly. When we have faith that God has accomplished His will and what He has said he will do, what more can we do? Also in Acts chapter 8, 10, and 11, there is absolutely no mention baptizing leading to salvation. It is either done before someone receives the Holy Spirit or after as a symbolic act. Do we still lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? The eunich was reading Isaiah and was on his way to worship in Jerusalem in chapter 8. Clearly he believed. His baptism had nothing to do with his salvation. Sin was abolished at the cross. No baptizing, works, or actions lead to our salvation or forgiveness of sin. This was the plan for all generations for all of mankind. The entire purpose of the law was to show and point out to the world that we cannot save ourselves. The laws purpose was to illuminate our biggest sin, pride in ourselves and abilities and works to try and save ourselves and how much we absolutely need Him to do the impossible. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 23, 2018 0:59:51 GMT -6
But how do you sin against the law of Faith in [Romans 3] when there is no sin? It's nailed to the cross. Gone! You're justified! NOT GUILTY! But you can sin against the law of liberty [James 2] and be in violation of all of the law... GUILTY It's a paradox! USCG you are very good at your work. A fine line of separation exists between the law of faith and liberty such that they are nearly one and the same. Nevertheless, one law does precede the other. Thus, we are free from the law when we have faith in Christ. That is, the law of liberty precedes the law of faith. So it is that Christ paid the price of all sin and set at liberty all mankind (the law of liberty). Yet, faith is required of the sinner to access that payment for him or her self (the law of faith). This is the atonement; that we are set free in Christ (liberty) if we will but accept it (faith). The doctrine is explainable and generally follows the above format with few exceptions. |
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Post by fitz on Dec 23, 2018 6:14:03 GMT -6
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor be weary when reproved by Him. For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and chastises every son whom He receives." (Prov 3:11-12, quoted in Heb 12:5-6) God will deal with the sin in our lives. I have had things come up that I didn't realize were sins until God put His finger on it, so to speak. Other times I may be holding on to some sin (and feeling guilty and miserable) and that is also God's discipline. It's how I break that law of liberty and how He deals with it. Each situation is different, just like any parent and child. But the only penalty being a broken relationship and the need to come to Him for forgiveness. (Which He won't withhold because it was all taken care of on the cross.) I believe you are mixing law of Moses (we need justification) with law of liberty (you are free from the law of Moses, justified). God deals with sin (violations of the law of Moses) as you have pointed out also by sending his Son to the cross. However, the law of liberty is applied AFTER we have already believed in Jesus... We are not held accountable to the law of Moses as it has been nailed to the cross. But according to James, we are held accountable to sin against the law of liberty. Difficult passage here @ James 2:12 & 13. Transgressing the Law of Liberty is to be unmerciful toward others after Christ was merciful toward us, while yet we were still dead in our sins. So, we need to show mercy towards everyone, and this is the mark of a true believer. This principle is probably best illustrated by Jesus in the Parable of the Unforgiving Debtor in Matthew 18:21-35. We should be careful to be merciful to everyone because God has been merciful to us! I cannot articulate the direct answer any better than this: www.gotquestions.org/mercy-triumphs-over-judgment.html Bottom line...mercy does win over judgement. Faith in Christ assures salvation, works (such as mercy towards others, etc.) follow as evidence and through them we store treasure in heaven. If we arrive in heaven and there is little in our treasure chests, then our rewards will be small. If there is much treasure, then our rewards will be great. Thus judgement for one justified by faith who has not works will mean loss of rewards at the Bema seat. |
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Post by mike on Dec 23, 2018 9:50:57 GMT -6
I have a question, simple for me, hopefully comes across in the right vain. I am not sure how to word it without it possible sounding condescending but that's not the tone, so whoever responds please don't misunderstand. If I share the gospel with a gentile, I just tell them they have to have faith, believing in Christ's atonement. If I share with a Jew the gospel message to him/her should be believe but also follow specific commands to be saved? Paul is the apostle to the Jew FIRST then the Gentiles. This is in Acts, Romans, and other places I think. I think everyone here agrees with this...? When sharing the gospel (since we are after Acts 10 with Peter's vision that gentiles are no longer unclean or common (Acts 11)... like dogs....hint hint...), for both Jew and Gentile, before the Rapture occurs, we follow Paul's letters of 1 Corinthians 15 of Faith alone in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. After Rapture, when the body of Christ is gone, it's the Gospels in relation to the Jews and Hebrews -> Revelation. Faith + Works (Don't take the mark of the beast, don't worship the beast, survive to the end, beheading, etc...) That's my understanding so far. It seems many here may disagree on some of it? I was wondering if you had answered my question, had to backtrack. So as you can see, some disagree. Normally we don't see this dialogue on certain topics, but this one regards salvation so yes there is dissent as, from the way the information is presented faith + works was necessary and will be again. I believe this is what you are claiming and supporting. To comment on Acts 11...why is you see this as a change and not a correction of Peter? We were not present there and not being there we may not fully understand the context. As I thought about this scene more I remember that the temple was still standing, many righteous Jews were not proselytized, many Pharisaical Jews were still combating the truth. From what I have understood Peter was being "sucked" back into practicing the law. Is this not what Galatians 2 is talking about? Peter, James, John and as Paul states "even Barnabas..." So why do we stop at Faith + baptism? Why not Faith + circumcision? Why not faith + not eating food sacrificed to idols (which I am curious to understand better as it's mentioned numerous times) Edit - good explanation for me www.gotquestions.org/food-sacrificed-idols.html |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 9:56:36 GMT -6
But how do you sin against the law of Faith in [Romans 3] when there is no sin? It's nailed to the cross. Gone! You're justified! NOT GUILTY! But you can sin against the law of liberty [James 2] and be in violation of all of the law... GUILTY It's a paradox! USCG you are very good at your work. A fine line of separation exists between the law of faith and liberty such that they are nearly one and the same. Nevertheless, one law does precede the other. Thus, we are free from the law when we have faith in Christ. That is, the law of liberty precedes the law of faith. So it is that Christ paid the price of all sin and set at liberty all mankind (the law of liberty). Yet, faith is required of the sinner to access that payment for him or her self (the law of faith). This is the atonement; that we are set free in Christ (liberty) if we will but accept it (faith). The doctrine is explainable and generally follows the above format with few exceptions. But here you are speculating. I don't think there is enough evidence to prove it. James begins chapter 2 defining faith in Jesus, that is what links "the law of liberty" to Paul's "law of faith".... It's faith in both cases... I see a paradox, without making speculation... one that is very hard to accept. If you are free from all sin after believing in Christ but then can still sin and be guilty of all sin, that becomes too difficult to accept. Edit: I am certain I'm guilty of favoritism in one way or another, even without realizing it. Can "Right Division" be wrong? Absolutely! It's a theory based on written audiences. I wasn't the written audience for Hebrews, James, John, Jude, and Peter... even in the Gospels where Jesus said He was sent to the lost children of Israel. That is an undeniable fact! It's just, to me, it's the best method to deal with these paradoxes without speculation. Seeing people call "Right Dividers" as un-Christian, or vise versa, in my opinion is wrong when the only thing that makes you Christian, during this dispensation of Grace, is believing in Christ's Gospel defined by Paul. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 23, 2018 10:47:36 GMT -6
USCG you are very good at your work. A fine line of separation exists between the law of faith and liberty such that they are nearly one and the same. Nevertheless, one law does precede the other. Thus, we are free from the law when we have faith in Christ. That is, the law of liberty precedes the law of faith. So it is that Christ paid the price of all sin and set at liberty all mankind (the law of liberty). Yet, faith is required of the sinner to access that payment for him or her self (the law of faith). This is the atonement; that we are set free in Christ (liberty) if we will but accept it (faith). The doctrine is explainable and generally follows the above format with few exceptions. But here you are speculating. I don't think there is enough evidence to prove it. James begins chapter 2 defining faith in Jesus, that is what links "the law of liberty" to Paul's law of faith. I see a paradox, without making speculation... one that is very hard to accept. If you are free from all sin after believing in Christ but then can still sin and be guilty of all sin, that becomes too difficult to accept. Yes, I know what you mean. However, it is the exception that I mentioned in my previous post, and taken to its extreme is called the unpardonable sin. Thus, Christ paid for all sin and we as individuals can accept his payment and this in a nutshell encompasses the two laws of which we are speaking. Yet, if we-as-his rebel against him then we are guilty of sinning against God in an unpardonable manner. That is, we can willfully move ourselves out from under his umbrella of protection via rebellion. The pattern is as follows: 1) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation 2) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation, and then sinner willfully rebels against and hates Christ = unpardonable sin In other words, if the sinner turns against his Lord and becomes a rabid dog then his Lord rejects the sinner. But lets say the sinner repents of his rebellion. Now that is a different story entirely. Thus we have number 3 as follows: 3) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation, and then sinner willfully rebels against and hates Christ but repents = salvation The key is the repentance. Since we all sin then it is our constant effort to not fall from salvation into an unpardonable sin. Thus, we must work at maintaining our salvation via repentance. While it is possible to have salvation and not maintain that close relationship with Lord Jesus, it is dangerous to do so. Because, Satan is wanting to destroy that eternal relationship between Christ and the sinner. Thus, in theory it is possible to to have salvation and not worry about maintaining that salvation. But in reality, if faith is not exercised to produce works then the sinner is at risk of loosing their salvation. That is, faith without works is dead and that dead faith causes an alienation between the sinner and his Lord that can grow to the point of no return. That is what happened to Lucifer when he rebelled against God; he reached the point of no return in which he hates God forever. Thus, we also can follow Lucifer in rebellion if we so choose. Yet, the better course of action is to recognize our sins and repent to draw closer to God. Thus, we have salvation in Christ and yet we sin and it is that sin that pulls us away from Christ. That is, we have salvation in Christ and Satan pulls us away from Christ via sin. Or choice is to continue in rebellion with Satan, or repent and draw close to Christ. Those are our two options: sin and repent or sin and rebel. Post Script: While it is true that Christ conquered sin, as in took all sin upon himself and paid the price for all sin; we as individuals follow him in conquering sin in our lives. Thus, the sin that Christ paid is ongoing in our lives and we can reject or embrace that sin. Thus two conditions exist: 1) Christ paid for all sin 2) We as individuals can embrace or reject sin in our lives. To embrace sin is to follow Satan and to reject sin is to follow Christ. This is a war we all face and the only relief is to reject sin and follow Christ. Yet we are sinner is in constant need of Christ's relief from sin; sin that he has already nailed to the cross. That is, the sin that Christ conquered is still alive in our lives. We are blessed to know that it has been defeated in Christ, yet we must defeat it as well. We can do our part to defeat sin by following Lord Jesus. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 11:00:57 GMT -6
But here you are speculating. I don't think there is enough evidence to prove it. James begins chapter 2 defining faith in Jesus, that is what links "the law of liberty" to Paul's law of faith. I see a paradox, without making speculation... one that is very hard to accept. If you are free from all sin after believing in Christ but then can still sin and be guilty of all sin, that becomes too difficult to accept. Yes, I know what you mean. However, it is the exception that I mentioned in my previous post, and taken to its extreme is called the unpardonable sin. Thus, Christ paid for all sin and we as individuals can accept his payment and this in a nutshell encompasses the two laws of which we are speaking. Yet, if we-as-his rebel against him then we are guilty of sinning against God in an unpardonable manner. That is, we can willfully move ourselves out from under his umbrella of protection via rebellion. The pattern is as follows: 1) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation 2) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation, and then sinner willfully rebels against and hates Christ = unpardonable sin In other words, if the sinner turns against his Lord and becomes a rabid dog then his Lord rejects the sinner. But lets say the sinner repents of his rebellion. Now that is a different story entirely. Thus we have number 3 as follows: 3) Christ paid for sin and sinner accepts Christ's payment = salvation, and then sinner willfully rebels against and hates Christ but repents = salvation The key is the repentance. Since we all sin then it is our constant effort to not fall from salvation into an unpardonable sin. Thus, we must work at maintaining our salvation via repentance. While it is possible to have salvation and not maintain that close relationship with Lord Jesus, it is dangerous to do so. Because, Satan is wanting to destroy that eternal relationship between Christ and the sinner. Thus, in theory it is possible to to have salvation and not worry about maintaining that salvation. But in reality, if faith is not exercised to produce works then the sinner is at risk of loosing their salvation. That is, faith without works is dead and that dead faith causes an alienation between the sinner and his Lord that can grow to the point of no return. That is what happened to Lucifer when he rebelled against God; he reached the point of no return in which he hates God forever. Thus, we also can follow Lucifer in rebellion if we so choose. Yet, the better course of action is to recognize our sins and repent to draw closer to God. Thus, we have salvation in Christ and yet we sin and it is that sin that pulls us away from Christ. That is, we have salvation in Christ and Satan pulls us away from Christ via sin. Or choice is to continue in rebellion with Satan, or repent and draw close to Christ. Those are our two options: sin and repent or sin and rebel. If my own daughter became a rabid dog against me, I would still love and forgive her... even to the very point of my own death. Christ did the same. And we were adopted as sons... Your very valid analysis means you can lose your salvation...! I disagree, only during this dispensation of Grace, as many here believe, once saved, always saved as we see from Paul's letters. But after the Rapture... all bets are off! |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 23, 2018 11:23:15 GMT -6
If my own daughter became a rabid dog against me, I would still love and forgive her... even to the very point of my own death. Christ did the same. And we were adopted as sons... Your very valid analysis means you can lose your salvation...! I disagree, only during this dispensation of Grace, as many here believe, once saved, always saved as we see from Paul's letters. But after the Rapture... all bets are off! Once saved always saved until the individual hates and willfully attacks Christ like Satan (unpardonable sin). |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 11:53:56 GMT -6
If my own daughter became a rabid dog against me, I would still love and forgive her... even to the very point of my own death. Christ did the same. And we were adopted as sons... Your very valid analysis means you can lose your salvation...! I disagree, only during this dispensation of Grace, as many here believe, once saved, always saved as we see from Paul's letters. But after the Rapture... all bets are off! Once saved always saved until the individual hates and willfully attacks Christ like Satan (unpardonable sin). Has God fully rejected Israel for willfully attacking and murdering Christ and the Holy Spirit thru Stephen? Are the Jew's lost forever? Or did Christ pardon them on the cross? |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 12:49:59 GMT -6
I was wondering if you had answered my question, had to backtrack. So as you can see, some disagree. Normally we don't see this dialogue on certain topics, but this one regards salvation so yes there is dissent as, from the way the information is presented faith + works was necessary and will be again. I believe this is what you are claiming and supporting. To comment on Acts 11...why is you see this as a change and not a correction of Peter? We were not present there and not being there we may not fully understand the context. As I thought about this scene more I remember that the temple was still standing, many righteous Jews were not proselytized, many Pharisaical Jews were still combating the truth. From what I have understood Peter was being "sucked" back into practicing the law. Is this not what Galatians 2 is talking about? Peter, James, John and as Paul states "even Barnabas..." So why do we stop at Faith + baptism? Why not Faith + circumcision? Why not faith + not eating food sacrificed to idols (which I am curious to understand better as it's mentioned numerous times) Edit - good explanation for me www.gotquestions.org/food-sacrificed-idols.html"So as you can see, some disagree. Normally we don't see this dialogue on certain topics, but this one regards salvation so yes there is dissent as, from the way the information is presented faith + works was necessary and will be again. I believe this is what you are claiming and supporting." Yep, some disagree, but I've made my case with James vs Paul conversing with boraddict with the paradox between them which shows Paul as OSAS and James as the possibility of losing your salvation. My goal was to show the careful study between us, I hope, doesn't fully condemn "Right Division". I'm not dogmatic on "Right Division". I don't fully rely on just the King James version. RD is just a tool to me. A very important one though! "To comment on Acts 11...why is you see this as a change and not a correction of Peter?" I don't think Peter was "sucked" back into practicing the law, I think they just continued to practice the law throughout Jesus' ministry and after His death on the cross. I don't think there's enough evidence to prove one way or another conclusively. You may be right! But the fact that even Barnabas was practicing the law after Faith in Christ makes a statement. "We were not present there and not being there we may not fully understand the context." Agreed, there is much information we lack by not physically being there to witness what fully occurred throughout the Gospels, Acts, Paul, and the latter. I really wish we could have been there. "So why do we stop at Faith + baptism? Why not Faith + circumcision? Why not faith + not eating food sacrificed to idols (which I am curious to understand better as it's mentioned numerous times)" Jesus was baptized in water. Would He have received the Holy Spirit if He hadn't been baptized in water? Jesus was circumcised. Would He have been baptized in water if He hadn't been circumcised as the law required? Were Gentiles being circumcised during Christ's ministry? Yes (Acts 10-11 and Galatians 2 are proof) Were Gentiles being baptized in water during Christ's ministry? Yes Was both circumcision and water baptism required to enter Christ's Kingdom ? Yes Are those requirements still required? Yes and No. Paul seemed to have convinced the elder apostles of this in Acts and Galatians. Peter stating "we" (Jews) can be saved in the same manner as "they" (Gentiles) Acts 15:11 Yes: we are circumcised from the flesh when we Believe in the Gospel of Christ Yes: we are baptized in the Holy Spirit when we Believe in the Gospel of Christ No: not physical circumcision No: not water baptism |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 23, 2018 14:45:03 GMT -6
Once saved always saved until the individual hates and willfully attacks Christ like Satan (unpardonable sin). Has God fully rejected Israel for willfully attacking and murdering Christ and the Holy Spirit thru Stephen? Are the Jew's lost forever? Or did Christ pardon them on the cross? Although Judah did murder the Savior, Stephen, etc. and was judged in my opinion for that crime, they are not lost forever and stand to be redeemed at Christ's coming. However, Sodom and Gomorrah did reach that level of full rejection and were destroyed. So it appears a point of rejection does exist and God decides when that point has been reached. I suppose in the case of apples they are fully rotten at one point which is different for oranges, grapes, etc. So Sodom and Gomorrah persecuted the poor and were destroyed whereas Judah killed the Savior and was not destroyed. From that it appears that God is more offended by how the poor are treated than how he is treated. Thus, Judah having hated, murdered, and rejected Christ, still has an opportunity for repentance at this time. Thus, they have traveled down the road toward being unpardonable and yet are in a period of probation. Scripture tells us that they repent and are forgiven in the end. For us the type is the same. We accept, and for some reject Christ who then repent before they are cast out. However, since we do not know the time of our probation then it is Russian Roulette and risky to play.  It is better not to play those games at all with our salvation. Christ did pay everything on the cross, from the beginning to the end, including all pardons. Since the Jews are still with us then they are not lost forever. |
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It is better not to play those games at all with our salvation.