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Post by cwood85 on Dec 23, 2018 15:52:31 GMT -6
boraddict However, Sodom and Gomorrah did reach that level of full rejection and were destroyed. So it appears a point of rejection does exist and God decides when that point has been reached. I suppose in the case of apples they are fully rotten at one point which is different for oranges, grapes, etc. So Sodom and Gomorrah persecuted the poor and were destroyed whereas Judah killed the Savior and was not destroyed. From that it appears that God is more offended by how the poor are treated than how he is treated. But we must keep in mind their destruction is not for forever. Gods love is never ending. His ways and thoughts are above us. Gods love never gives up. “53Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55“Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.”
Ezekiel 16:53-55 EDITING TO ADD: I did not have time to type all of my response earlier in my first response, but would like to point to a different and brighter light to the outcome of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is easy to think God destroyed these two cities because He could no longer stand their sin and depravity and they were beyond any help. Majority think this is what happened and why he acted they way He did. Rotten to the core to where God rejects them. But is this what entirely happened? His destruction of these cities was because of their abominations, and as we see in Genesis when the Angels came to rescue Lot, the male citizens of the city wanted the two male angels to forcibly pass them around amongst themselves and have their ways with them. They were practically breaking down Lots door and Lot tried offering his virgin daughters in place of the Angels. Not what they wanted. These two new comers were fresh meat in their eyes. What in more cases than not, leads to this type of behavior? Sexual abuse. Usually starting at a very young age. The citizens of these cities had basically become demented and perverted from a constant cycle of abuse. Yes it is evil and disgusting and God destroyed these two cities for their evil ways. But look at how he did it. We are pretty sure these cities have been discovered, or at least what's left of them. They were burned up so hot and so fast that the remaining foundations of the structures turned into pure sulfur and brimstone. In reality majority of the people probably turned to ash before they knew what had even hit them. God wasn’t rejecting them or sick of them and figured they had just completely gone too far, no he was having mercy and pity on them. Stopping a deplorable cycle of abuses and evil instead of letting it continue on. He destroyed them so they couldn’t hurt themselves and others anymore. Their minds and souls were broken so he saved them from themselves...
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 16:32:05 GMT -6
boraddict However, Sodom and Gomorrah did reach that level of full rejection and were destroyed. So it appears a point of rejection does exist and God decides when that point has been reached. I suppose in the case of apples they are fully rotten at one point which is different for oranges, grapes, etc. So Sodom and Gomorrah persecuted the poor and were destroyed whereas Judah killed the Savior and was not destroyed. From that it appears that God is more offended by how the poor are treated than how he is treated. But we must keep in mind their destruction is not for forever. Gods love is never ending. His ways and thoughts are above us. Gods love never gives up. “53Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55“Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.”
Ezekiel 16:53-55 Interesting!  |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 21:25:51 GMT -6
Did Peter baptize people in water as part of their salvation process? What in the world was the Acts 8, last part of 10, and first part of 11 all about if not water baptism...? Some received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, some after, some after hands were laid on them by a disciple. A water baptism had and has nothing to do with salvation. It was an act to symbolize the washing of their sins. A symbolic act. Baptizing does not actually wash away our sins. Jesus did that. This is no different today in regards to baptism. I have never been baptized, so what does this mean for me? Unfortunately when we start to pick and choose and try to rationalize what counts us as saved or unsaved, or multiple gospels for different groups of people and them having different things required of them to achieve salvation, things get sticky rather quickly. When we have faith that God has accomplished His will and what He has said he will do, what more can we do? Also in Acts chapter 8, 10, and 11, there is absolutely no mention baptizing leading to salvation. It is either done before someone receives the Holy Spirit or after as a symbolic act. Do we still lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? The eunich was reading Isaiah and was on his way to worship in Jerusalem in chapter 8. Clearly he believed. His baptism had nothing to do with his salvation. Sin was abolished at the cross. No baptizing, works, or actions lead to our salvation or forgiveness of sin. This was the plan for all generations for all of mankind. The entire purpose of the law was to show and point out to the world that we cannot save ourselves. The laws purpose was to illuminate our biggest sin, pride in ourselves and abilities and works to try and save ourselves and how much we absolutely need Him to do the impossible. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.Here's one to ponder on. Can one be saved without the Holy Spirit? After you ponder that one, ease into this one. Would Jesus Christ Himself have received the Holy Spirit if He avoided water baptism? Can one enter into God's Kingdom without the Holy Spirit? And how about circumcision? Would Christ have been baptized in water if He wasn't circumcised? Since Acts 11-15 (Peter's Vision with gentiles being made clean): Are we gentiles baptized in the Holy Spirit through Faith? Are we gentiles circumcised of the heart, in the Spirit, through Faith? Did Abraham enter into God's Kingdom when he died? Did Abraham have the Holy Spirit? |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 23, 2018 22:43:52 GMT -6
Some received the Holy Spirit before being baptized, some after, some after hands were laid on them by a disciple. A water baptism had and has nothing to do with salvation. It was an act to symbolize the washing of their sins. A symbolic act. Baptizing does not actually wash away our sins. Jesus did that. This is no different today in regards to baptism. I have never been baptized, so what does this mean for me? Unfortunately when we start to pick and choose and try to rationalize what counts us as saved or unsaved, or multiple gospels for different groups of people and them having different things required of them to achieve salvation, things get sticky rather quickly. When we have faith that God has accomplished His will and what He has said he will do, what more can we do? Also in Acts chapter 8, 10, and 11, there is absolutely no mention baptizing leading to salvation. It is either done before someone receives the Holy Spirit or after as a symbolic act. Do we still lay on hands to receive the Holy Spirit? The eunich was reading Isaiah and was on his way to worship in Jerusalem in chapter 8. Clearly he believed. His baptism had nothing to do with his salvation. Sin was abolished at the cross. No baptizing, works, or actions lead to our salvation or forgiveness of sin. This was the plan for all generations for all of mankind. The entire purpose of the law was to show and point out to the world that we cannot save ourselves. The laws purpose was to illuminate our biggest sin, pride in ourselves and abilities and works to try and save ourselves and how much we absolutely need Him to do the impossible. 9For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. 11In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15He disarmed the rulers and authoritiesb and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.Here's one to ponder on. Can one be saved without the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is our helper, and revealed of truth. He opens our eyes to the truth. [ font color="05beb7"]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.[/font]
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;[/i] After you ponder that one, ease into this one. Would Jesus Christ Himself have received the Holy Spirit if He avoided water baptism? To be honest, this was while done yes literally, it was also done for show. To show everyone the Holy Spirit coming from God. God sends the Holy Spirit. Do you think one does not receive the Holy Spirit without a water baptism?Can one enter into God's Kingdom without the Holy Spirit? This will take a long and detailed answer that I will come back to once I have access to my PC.And how about circumcision? Would Christ have been baptized in water if He wasn't circumcised? Christ was acting on the Fathers will. He followed the law perfectly to fulfill it. Therefore he was circumcised at 8 days of age. This is one of those questions were Gods plan had everything happen the way it needed and would have happened. Circumcision was symbolic of a circumcised heart. The OT speaks of thisWould Christ as a son of man be allowed to enter Heaven as a gentile? God does not care of our genealogy. We are all one of the same to him. Jews cared if one was or was not a Jew. God is not partial to anyone. Since Acts 11-15 (Peter's Vision with gentiles being made clean): Are we gentiles baptized in the Holy Spirit through Faith? Are we gentiles circumcised of the heart, in the Spirit, through Faith? Ahh but it doesn’t say gentiles in his vision. It just says unclean food and non ritualized food. Which yes meant non Jewish. BUT when Peter saw the vision, all animals from all animal kingdoms were shown. Birds, mammals, reptiles, sea creatures and so on. The vision was showing all had been made clean. God spoke to the Jews in the OT about being circumcised in the heart in multiple scriptures. God cares about our heart, not our lineage, color, race, land location and so on.
Here is one for you, my genealogy consists of about 1/8 American Indian, Irish, English, and a good chunk of German Hebrew/Jew. My family’s maiden name was on Schindler’s list. So I am both a gentile and a Jew according to my bloodline. Will God favor or care more about my Hebrew/Jewish genealogy? Is more expected of me because of this? [/quote] |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 23, 2018 23:23:43 GMT -6
cwood85,
Your post was a bit messed up with the HTML encoding, so I'll respond here.
The Holy Spirit is more than just a helper...
2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
It is God the Father who seals us with the Holy Spirit which grants us into Heaven to come to Christ just like the verse you quoted:
"And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
Based on those two verses, it's as if the Holy Spirit is like an entry ticket into Heaven to be with Christ!
No ticket, no entry...
Did Abraham have the Holy Spirit as a seal, as a guarantee?
Did Abraham go directly to the Kingdom of God (Heaven) when he died?
Abraham had faith... He was found righteous.
Abraham was justified with works.
As for Jew vs Gentile:
Act 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
---- in other words, convert them from gentile to Jew....
Why?
Because Gentiles were unclean up until Peter's vision:
Acts 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, ‘What God has cleansed you must not call common.’ 10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. <--- 3 guys with news to take Peter immediately to (now cleaned) Gentiles that want to be saved
.
.
. { my emphasis added}
Acts 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If therefore God gave them {unclean gentile believers now made clean} the same gift as He gave us {clean Jewish believers} when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”
1. This is proof that only physical Jews were granted repentance to life up until Peter's vision.
2. God is still following His laws dealing with clean vs unclean things.
Gentiles have become clean so that, through faith, they can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and circumcised of the Heart in Spirit...
Otherwise, from before Peter's vision, gentile believers had to be converted through physical circumcision and keep the law of Moses (Act 15:5) and then repent and be baptized in water to receive the Holy Spirit!
Before Peter's vision, gentiles were being physically converted to Jews to receive the Holy Spirit after water baptism. (Proof -- Act 15:5 and Galatians 2)
After Peter's vision, the Gentile Believer becomes a Jew inwardly through faith alone! (Galatians 2 is just proof Jewish believers were still converting gentile believers physically into Jews to get the Holy Spirit)
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 24, 2018 2:22:36 GMT -6
Before Peter's vision, gentiles were being physically converted to Jews to receive the Holy Spirit after water baptism. (Proof -- Act 15:5 and Galatians 2) After Peter's vision, the Gentile Believer becomes a Jew inwardly through faith alone! (Galatians 2 is just proof Jewish believers were still converting gentile believers physically into Jews to get the Holy Spirit) Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. I had to laugh when I discovered that your reference to gentiles " being physically converted to Jews" means gentiles being circumcised. I think it is a stretch to say that Acts 15:5 and Galatians 2 are saying as you have stated. In fact, these references pertain to circumcision and not becoming Jews. That is so funny and I did not recognize those buzz words. So that is where the Jew outwardly stuff comes from; I did not know that. So we have Jew outwardly and inwardly that pertains to literal circumcision and metaphorical circumcision. Got it. The problem with this language is that metaphorical circumcision is not Jew exclusive but it is to all Israel as in all twelve tribes. Yes Judah continued the physical practice but take for instance women becoming metaphorically circumcised and by extension becoming Jewish men; that is so funny. No, to be metaphorically circumcised that is the circumcision of the heart and also in my opinion mistakenly called Jewish inwardly, pertains to all Israel. One does not become Jewish nor men but of the house of Israel. I am continually amazed when Israel is called Judah. What doctrine is this that is so lax in the facts? Judah is one tribe in Israel and it is proved in scripture. So why are so many resistant to historical facts? Okay, it is like saying I am a citizen of America. Really? No. I am a citizen of the United States. Or how about germs. Really? Like bacteria are parts of seeds. Where is the accuracy when speaking of Judah for it is one tribe in Israel. So we hold on to the inaccuracy to push a doctrinal language. I like to show things via my favorite religious belief, the Mormons. How about "follow the prophet" that really means follow the leader of a multi billion dollar company. How about the temple hand shake as a doctrinal exclusive? It is almost like the Spock "live long and prosper" hand from Star Trek. Judah is not Israel and neither is Ephraim although Ephraim has the greater historical claim to the name; because, Ephraim was called Israel when the northern kingdom split away from the southern kingdom; Judah. For example 2 Chron. 11:1, " And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam." Thus, Israel in scripture means all twelve tribes and the northern kingdom after it broke away, but Israel does not mean the southern kingdom that is comprised of Judah and Benjamin. So why are so many making this mistake and calling Judah, Israel, that is clearly incorrect? I do not think it rises to the level of false doctrine but it does demonstrate a level of complacency. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 24, 2018 8:38:30 GMT -6
Before Peter's vision, gentiles were being physically converted to Jews to receive the Holy Spirit after water baptism. (Proof -- Act 15:5 and Galatians 2) After Peter's vision, the Gentile Believer becomes a Jew inwardly through faith alone! (Galatians 2 is just proof Jewish believers were still converting gentile believers physically into Jews to get the Holy Spirit) Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. I had to laugh when I discovered that your reference to gentiles " being physically converted to Jews" means gentiles being circumcised. I think it is a stretch to say that Acts 15:5 and Galatians 2 are saying as you have stated. In fact, these references pertain to circumcision and not becoming Jews. That is so funny and I did not recognize those buzz words. So that is where the Jew outwardly stuff comes from; I did not know that. So we have Jew outwardly and inwardly that pertains to literal circumcision and metaphorical circumcision. Got it. The problem with this language is that metaphorical circumcision is not Jew exclusive but it is to all Israel as in all twelve tribes. Yes Judah continued the physical practice but take for instance women becoming metaphorically circumcised and by extension becoming Jewish men; that is so funny. No, to be metaphorically circumcised that is the circumcision of the heart and also in my opinion mistakenly called Jewish inwardly, pertains to all Israel. One does not become Jewish nor men but of the house of Israel. I am continually amazed when Israel is called Judah. What doctrine is this that is so lax in the facts? Judah is one tribe in Israel and it is proved in scripture. So why are so many resistant to historical facts? Okay, it is like saying I am a citizen of America. Really? No. I am a citizen of the United States. Or how about germs. Really? Like bacteria are parts of seeds. Where is the accuracy when speaking of Judah for it is one tribe in Israel. So we hold on to the inaccuracy to push a doctrinal language. I like to show things via my favorite religious belief, the Mormons. How about "follow the prophet" that really means follow the leader of a multi billion dollar company. How about the temple hand shake as a doctrinal exclusive? It is almost like the Spock "live long and prosper" hand from Star Trek. Judah is not Israel and neither is Ephraim although Ephraim has the greater historical claim to the name; because, Ephraim was called Israel when the northern kingdom split away from the southern kingdom; Judah. For example 2 Chron. 11:1, " And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam." Thus, Israel in scripture means all twelve tribes and the northern kingdom after it broke away, but Israel does not mean the southern kingdom that is comprised of Judah and Benjamin. So why are so many making this mistake and calling Judah, Israel, that is clearly incorrect? I do not think it rises to the level of false doctrine but it does demonstrate a level of complacency. I hope you got a good laugh :-D It's good for you. So before Peter's Vision about the unclean being made clean, how would a Gentile get baptized? Jesus Himself commanded: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Jesus Himself told a gentile woman: Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” After reading that, and Acts 15 and Galatians 2 But you don't believe this? How many physically uncircumcised gentiles were baptized in water before Peter's vision? How would a gentile believer get baptized in water by an apostle before Peter's vision? ----------------------------- Edit: Which apostle or disciple violated Christ's commandment to not go to the Gentiles before Peter's vision? |
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Post by mike on Dec 24, 2018 12:47:58 GMT -6
USCG - when Peter saw the vision in Acts 11 have you considered that was God showing him that he was seeing things incorrectly rather than changing or starting a new/different dispensation?
If Peter was "requiring" the law of circumcision or any other could it be that God was showing him the error of his way?
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Post by boraddict on Dec 24, 2018 13:00:23 GMT -6
I had to laugh when I discovered that your reference to gentiles " being physically converted to Jews" means gentiles being circumcised. I think it is a stretch to say that Acts 15:5 and Galatians 2 are saying as you have stated. In fact, these references pertain to circumcision and not becoming Jews. That is so funny and I did not recognize those buzz words. So that is where the Jew outwardly stuff comes from; I did not know that. So we have Jew outwardly and inwardly that pertains to literal circumcision and metaphorical circumcision. Got it. The problem with this language is that metaphorical circumcision is not Jew exclusive but it is to all Israel as in all twelve tribes. Yes Judah continued the physical practice but take for instance women becoming metaphorically circumcised and by extension becoming Jewish men; that is so funny. No, to be metaphorically circumcised that is the circumcision of the heart and also in my opinion mistakenly called Jewish inwardly, pertains to all Israel. One does not become Jewish nor men but of the house of Israel. I am continually amazed when Israel is called Judah. What doctrine is this that is so lax in the facts? Judah is one tribe in Israel and it is proved in scripture. So why are so many resistant to historical facts? Okay, it is like saying I am a citizen of America. Really? No. I am a citizen of the United States. Or how about germs. Really? Like bacteria are parts of seeds. Where is the accuracy when speaking of Judah for it is one tribe in Israel. So we hold on to the inaccuracy to push a doctrinal language. I like to show things via my favorite religious belief, the Mormons. How about "follow the prophet" that really means follow the leader of a multi billion dollar company. How about the temple hand shake as a doctrinal exclusive? It is almost like the Spock "live long and prosper" hand from Star Trek. Judah is not Israel and neither is Ephraim although Ephraim has the greater historical claim to the name; because, Ephraim was called Israel when the northern kingdom split away from the southern kingdom; Judah. For example 2 Chron. 11:1, " And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he gathered of the house of Judah and Benjamin an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against Israel, that he might bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam." Thus, Israel in scripture means all twelve tribes and the northern kingdom after it broke away, but Israel does not mean the southern kingdom that is comprised of Judah and Benjamin. So why are so many making this mistake and calling Judah, Israel, that is clearly incorrect? I do not think it rises to the level of false doctrine but it does demonstrate a level of complacency. I hope you got a good laugh :-D It's good for you. 1) So before Peter's Vision about the unclean being made clean, how would a Gentile get baptized? 2) Jesus Himself commanded: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 3) Jesus Himself told a gentile woman: Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 4) After reading that, and Acts 15 and Galatians 2 But you don't believe this? 5) How many physically uncircumcised gentiles were baptized in water before Peter's vision? 6) How would a gentile believer get baptized in water by an apostle before Peter's vision? ----------------------------- 7) Edit: Which apostle or disciple violated Christ's commandment to not go to the Gentiles before Peter's vision? Thank you uscg. I do laugh sometimes as I read and write about scriptural things. It is a lot of fun and I love the interaction with others who love scripture. The challenge is to not be offended since the subject goes to the core of who we are. I do feel for the Mormons who follow a false prophet. The day of God's wrath is nearly upon us and they have confidence that their "prophet" will be guided by God in all things. Like I said, "follow the prophet," not Lord Jesus. That does not make me laugh however, but somber. Like the Mormons and their false beliefs, we also have false beliefs. Thus, it is wise to self evaluate in light of new information and that is what I am trying to help you with in our conversation about Israel. Prove to me that Judah is Israel; you can not because it is not true. For instance, it may be the case that I call Judah "h" or "xyz"; yet if I am deriving the name of Judah from scripture then it can not be anything but Judah, the house of Judah, Jews, etc. but not Israel, the house of Israel, etc. This error is a foundational error that is taught in churches, and since I am free from the teachings of churches then I can examine the evidence for myself. This is not to say that I know all the answers, but I find it for myself. So prove to me your claim that Judah is Israel. 1, 5-6) Peter was a Jew and believed as a Jew that they were the chosen people. Thus, it was just as difficult for Peter to accept that gentiles could be baptized as it is for you to accept that Judah is not Israel. It is a foundational belief that is at the core. Eventually he did move beyond that belief to accept that gentiles could be baptized. However, the ordinance of baptism is not the real issue but belief. If a person believes and takes an outward ordinance (baptism) then they are truly committed and will always remember that commitment in my opinion. I remember when my mother died she was proud to say that she had been baptized and she died with confidence in Christ. Had she not been baptized then that security in Christ may have been wanting. So the twelve sons of Israel were not baptized, Abraham was not baptized, Moses was not baptized; or if they were I have not seen proof of it. Yet baptism is that which Lord Jesus commands "us" to do. So until the time that Gentiles were baptized then is was of none effect. It only matters when Lord Jesus commands it; thus, the gentiles were baptized at the appointed time as prescribed by the Savior, in my opinion. 2-3) Since Israel is all the tribes and not exclusively Judah, then to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is to go to the lost tribes of Israel. Personally, I think the modern day Kurds are part of this group but I do not know. However, we are of those tribes of Israel as evidenced by our belief in Christ. What tribe in Israel are you from? Perhaps Judah meaning you are a Jew. If not a Jew then you are of Ephraim, in my opinion. 4) I do not understand this question. I do not follow a religious belief. 7) I do not know the answer to number 7 but would guess Paul since he was not afraid to follow Christ against the foundational belief of circumcision. |
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Post by mike on Dec 24, 2018 13:29:30 GMT -6
Can I just interject something off topic since BORA said feeling bad for Mormons...this morning I felt I needed to get myself in the gym for an 8am workout.
Around 8:15 an older gentleman who I occasionally say hello to stopped to talk to me.
"All my friends won't come here with me, they can barely walk up stairs anymore, it's sad".
I said "well it's good that you're here regularly, we have to take care of this body, it's the only one we get." I quickly and maybe shouldn't have said "well we all get a new one after the King returns"
I'm not sure he understood or it went over his head, so I followed up with
"Don't you believe? It's the reason we celebrate today & tomorrow"
Surprisingly I got the same reaction which was none. So I wished him a Merry Christmas and went back to my stuff...what is sad is Mormons who follow a false prophet, others who worship self or other idols and those with no hope.
I have family, friends and neighbors who fall somewhere in this "lost" category. I am going to take break from this thread today and be the minister and witness I should be for Him, His glory and His soon return!
I hope all enjoy this next day or two enjoying and remembering why we have this liberty. May God richly bless you all today. Anethema, Maranatha
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 24, 2018 14:49:44 GMT -6
USCG - when Peter saw the vision in Acts 11 have you considered that was God showing him that he was seeing things incorrectly rather than changing or starting a new/different dispensation? If Peter was "requiring" the law of circumcision or any other could it be that God was showing him the error of his way? Peter and all apostles were just following Jesus' command to the letter. Only go to the lost tribes of Israel. NOT TO GENTILES!!! Period!Peter was not "requiring" the law, GOD WAS! You are a Jew if you follow all of the laws of Moses, are circumcised in the flesh, and obey and participate in everything involved with being a Jew (animal sacrifices, etc...). Those are God's requirements, not Peter's... Not one single solitary uncircumcised gentile was ever recorded as being baptized in water Before Acts 10! Not one! And they better not have been! Gentiles are unclean and not entitled to the inheritance of the Promised Land in the Kingdom of God, of which Christ was preaching! The only people that were baptized in water were men, following laws-of-Moses, and missing skin from their third leg. This was the case from John the Baptist all the way UNTIL: Acts 10: Angel visits a Godly gentile roman man and tells him to send some guys to Peter. The gentile randomly just happens to select 3 guys and sends them to Peter... 2 servants and a soldier... just by random chance... Peter then gets the vision from God about unclean things becoming clean ... 3 times... !!! Then when Peter awakes from the vision, the 3 randomly picked guys just happen to show up at Peter's doorstep... Peter then goes to the Gentile household and preaches to them (the same message Paul wrote in 1 Cor 15) and *Poof*, when they believed they were instantly baptized, saved, and sealed by the Holy Spirit (without water)! Then Peter all the other Jews are completely baffled by this! Pete is like "How can it be that gentiles get the Holy Spirit...? " (It's not possible, they are unclean! They aren't Jews) So Peter is then like: Ok, let's go get you guys baptized in water... <---(this is where he didn't need to do this. It was un-necessary to baptize them in water because they already had just been baptized by the Holy Spirit and circumcised of the heart, in the Spirit, sealed for entry into Heaven to be with Christ forever) Acts 10 is the very VERY first case of a Gentile believer ever being baptized EVER! And it wasn't even water baptism, they were filled with the Holy Spirit without first being converted to following the law of Moses and getting circumcised in the flesh! That's why Acts 10 - 15 and Galatians 2 is so massively important to read and understand! Its where Gentiles are made clean by God so that we could be baptized! Throughout the entire Gospels and up to just before Acts 10, the apostles were going from Synagogue to Synagogue preaching the Kingdom Gospel. They were NOT going from gentile to gentile... They were going from Jew to Jew as they were COMMANDED by Jesus. KING OF THE JEWS! |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 24, 2018 16:05:20 GMT -6
If Gentiles weren't allowed to inherit the promises, how do explain Ruth and Rahab and other Gentiles who God welcomed into Israel?
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Post by Natalie on Dec 24, 2018 16:09:48 GMT -6
I do agree with you that the Jews take priority. Jesus was to be their Messiah first and also a light for the Gentiles. But I also think there were Gentiles who were welcome. Yes, in the OT they had to become Jews. They became part of the nation because that's how you came to God. Now we become Jews inwardly, no need for circumcision and sacrifices. Jesus fulfilled all that. It is done away with by just having faith in Christ's finished work.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 24, 2018 16:25:36 GMT -6
One more thought before I go do family stuff...
I believe God divided the world into two groups of people...Jew and Gentile. Because one is His chosen people He deals with the two groups differently. They have different understandings. But both are saved the same way - by faith in Messiah.
Maybe it is a bit like missionaries today (not exactly but it's the best comparison I could think of) We have missionaries in our church to Cambodia, some to Germany, some to Utah. Each of these people groups are different. Cambodian culture is very different from Germany. The Gospel never changes though; it is always just faith in Jesus. That's all it has ever been.
ETA there were times in His teaching that I believe Jesus was showing that the Gospel would be open to Gentiles. For example when He teaches that it was not what a person ate that made them unclean.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 24, 2018 16:54:27 GMT -6
I hope you got a good laugh :-D It's good for you. 1) So before Peter's Vision about the unclean being made clean, how would a Gentile get baptized? 2) Jesus Himself commanded: Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 3) Jesus Himself told a gentile woman: Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 4) After reading that, and Acts 15 and Galatians 2 But you don't believe this? 5) How many physically uncircumcised gentiles were baptized in water before Peter's vision? 6) How would a gentile believer get baptized in water by an apostle before Peter's vision? ----------------------------- 7) Edit: Which apostle or disciple violated Christ's commandment to not go to the Gentiles before Peter's vision? Thank you uscg. I do laugh sometimes as I read and write about scriptural things. It is a lot of fun and I love the interaction with others who love scripture. The challenge is to not be offended since the subject goes to the core of who we are. I do feel for the Mormons who follow a false prophet. The day of God's wrath is nearly upon us and they have confidence that their "prophet" will be guided by God in all things. Like I said, "follow the prophet," not Lord Jesus. That does not make me laugh however, but somber. Like the Mormons and their false beliefs, we also have false beliefs. Thus, it is wise to self evaluate in light of new information and that is what I am trying to help you with in our conversation about Israel. Prove to me that Judah is Israel; you can not because it is not true. For instance, it may be the case that I call Judah "h" or "xyz"; yet if I am deriving the name of Judah from scripture then it can not be anything but Judah, the house of Judah, Jews, etc. but not Israel, the house of Israel, etc. This error is a foundational error that is taught in churches, and since I am free from the teachings of churches then I can examine the evidence for myself. This is not to say that I know all the answers, but I find it for myself. So prove to me your claim that Judah is Israel. 1, 5-6) Peter was a Jew and believed as a Jew that they were the chosen people. Thus, it was just as difficult for Peter to accept that gentiles could be baptized as it is for you to accept that Judah is not Israel. It is a foundational belief that is at the core. Eventually he did move beyond that belief to accept that gentiles could be baptized. However, the ordinance of baptism is not the real issue but belief. If a person believes and takes an outward ordinance (baptism) then they are truly committed and will always remember that commitment in my opinion. I remember when my mother died she was proud to say that she had been baptized and she died with confidence in Christ. Had she not been baptized then that security in Christ may have been wanting. So the twelve sons of Israel were not baptized, Abraham was not baptized, Moses was not baptized; or if they were I have not seen proof of it. Yet baptism is that which Lord Jesus commands "us" to do. So until the time that Gentiles were baptized then is was of none effect. It only matters when Lord Jesus commands it; thus, the gentiles were baptized at the appointed time as prescribed by the Savior, in my opinion. 2-3) Since Israel is all the tribes and not exclusively Judah, then to go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel is to go to the lost tribes of Israel. Personally, I think the modern day Kurds are part of this group but I do not know. However, we are of those tribes of Israel as evidenced by our belief in Christ. What tribe in Israel are you from? Perhaps Judah meaning you are a Jew. If not a Jew then you are of Ephraim, in my opinion. 4) I do not understand this question. I do not follow a religious belief. 7) I do not know the answer to number 7 but would guess Paul since he was not afraid to follow Christ against the foundational belief of circumcision. See my response to mike. It might clarify some things first. Now to your response: 1. When I say Jew I am talking about everyone, where ever they live, following the law of Moses, where the husbands or fathers are circumcised in the flesh, etc... converted into Judaism, or by marriage (Ruth), or by blood. 2. Peter is a Jew and believed as a Jew 3. God made them the chosen people 4. Gentiles were not allowed to be baptized until Acts 10 with Peter's vision because gentiles are unclean to the Lord, (they do not follow the Law of Moses, are not circumcised in the flesh, etc... little dogs as Jesus put it) 5. Judah is a tribe of Israel (Jacob renamed to Israel). So are all the other tribes. Since the other 10 tribes were lost/dispersed, Israel is commonly understood as the Jewish people. I'm not arguing against this? 6. Did any of the lost/dispersed children of Israel still practice the laws of Moses, circumcision, etc...? If yes, these are the people Jesus sent His apostles too. Not the Gentiles like you and me! Paul was sent to people like you and me! 7. Without baptism, one can't obtain the Holy Spirit from God which seals us so that we can be with Christ in Heaven when we die. 8. Abraham, Moses, etc were not sealed with the Holy Spirit from God, thus, which is why they were down in hades (not Heaven) but in a safe place called "Abraham's bosom" like every other non-sealed justified and righteous person that died before Christ. 9. The commandment to get baptized was to the lost children of the house of Israel, not the Gentiles... this changed with Acts 10 with Peter's vision from the Lord. Gentiles were made clean and were allowed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit (water was not needed anymore Acts 10:34-48 as proof), circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit, making them Jews Inwardly, sealing them to be with Christ in Heaven forever. No gentile before Acts 10 had ever been baptized, EVER! Acts 10 was the first. 10. If you believe Jesus was sent to Gentiles like you and me, that is where we disagree. Christ flat out ordered His disciples not to go to the Gentiles. I am not knowingly in the bloodline of Israel, nor am I circumcised in the flesh, nor do I follow the laws of Moses and practice as the Jews do, nor have I converted to Judaism. I was a Gentile sinner who believed in the Gospel that Peter preached to the Gentiles in Acts 10 and what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15. I have (since believing the Gospel) been baptized by the Holy Spirit, not water, sealed to be received by Christ in Heaven if I die or will be changed in the Rapture to meet Christ in the air. I became a Jew inwardly through Faith (I was not a Jew before my Faith), circumcised in the heart, by the Spirit, apart from the Law. For all intensive purposes, I am now considered a what I would call a "Spiritual Jew" apart from sin and the law with Christ as my head and me as a part of Christ's body. |
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