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Post by Gary on Dec 15, 2018 13:29:55 GMT -6
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Post by fitz on Dec 15, 2018 14:44:41 GMT -6
Amen and amen!
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Post by Natalie on Dec 15, 2018 21:07:30 GMT -6
It's unfortunate that people have taken that Scripture and decided to divide up God's Word. Seems to me that doing that only opens oneself up to falling into various types of false teachings. Not to mention the fighting and divisions that Stephanie mentions.
How are we to know the whole character of God if we only read certain parts? Some say read only the red letters, others say only Paul's letters, some want to throw out Paul completely, some say to throw out the OT. We need all of it.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 15, 2018 23:37:02 GMT -6
It's unfortunate that people have taken that Scripture and decided to divide up God's Word. Seems to me that doing that only opens oneself up to falling into various types of false teachings. Not to mention the fighting and divisions that Stephanie mentions. How are we to know the whole character of God if we only read certain parts? Some say read only the red letters, others say only Paul's letters, some want to throw out Paul completely, some say to throw out the OT. We need all of it. biblehub.com/niv/1_corinthians/3.htm
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 18, 2018 15:39:11 GMT -6
Yea, I agree with Robert Breaker on RD.
If you can provide a much better rebuttal, I'll research it. But so far, I find RD is a correct method to understand the Word of God. Jesus Himself, with the words from His very lips, proclaimed to the Gentile woman in Matthew and Mark that He was sent to the house of Israel.
Jesus seemed frustrated with the woman and then only after much begging did he see her belief and heal her child. I don't see any forgiveness of sins during this event...
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Post by boraddict on Dec 18, 2018 16:08:59 GMT -6
Uscgvet, in response to your posting; perhaps the first thing to consider is that Israel split into two parts that are namely Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the north, and Judah was the dominant tribe in the south. Additionally, Ephraim was also referred to as Israel; however, Judah was never refereed to as Israel, but Jerusalem. It is for this reason that Isaiah's introduction at Verse 1:1 is perhaps most confusing wherein he states "Judah and Jerusalem" since both names pertain to Judah. That is, at the time Isaiah wrote his work, both names pertained to the southern kingdom of Judah. However, during our time Jerusalem pertains more specifically to the followers of Christ that are Ephraim. Thus, that which is confusing to the people of Isaiah's day is more clear to us and his introduction states Judah and Jerusalem (the Christians). That is, the two names (of Isaiah's day) pertain to Judah whose tribe remains in tact, and secondly, in our day, Jerusalem refers to Ephraim who in the last days are called Christians. Keep in mind that the "prophets" work in linguistic devises the most prominent of which are metaphor.
Notice in Verses 1:2-4, Isaiah groups the two kingdoms (north and south) into the one kingdom "Israel" wherein he calls them "children, Israel my people, sinful nation" etc. In the second chapter we again have the two groups at Verse 2:1 "Judah and Jerusalem" but at Verse 2:3 you can see that the word of the Lord is from Jerusalem and this is the Christians. This point is easily proved by reading the Gospel According to John, Chapter 1. However, and more interestingly stated is that out of Zion shall go forth the law and since the metaphor Jerusalem in Verse 1:3 is Ephraim, then Zion in that verse is Judah. Thus, out of Judah goes forth the law and we know this to be true because the Torah of the OT came to us via Judah. Thus, as you can see, once it is understood how Isaiah placed his metaphors, then it is easier to understand his work.
Again at Verse 3:1 Isaiah uses the Judah and Jerusalem terms for the latter day Jews (Judah) and Christians (Ephraim), and at Verse 7:17 both Ephraim and Judah are stated in the clear that Ephraim departed Judah via the king of Assyria. My point is that there are two houses to Israel and those two houses are Judah and Ephraim the Christians. That is, when the mantel of authority was taken from Judah, it was given to Ephraim, the Christians. With this understanding the works of the NT are easier to understand because for the most part the NT is from Ephraim and not Judah. Whereas, the OT has come to us from Judah.
With that in mind the entire NT is to Ephraim, the Christians. Because, once Judah accepts Christ they are of Ephraim. That is, Ephraim is Israel and once Judah comes to the fold then they are once again in line with the house of Israel. Thus, they will once again follow the one God, Lord Jesus.
In response to the point about the woman. Lord Jesus was saying that he was sent for his believers. He was making the point that the woman was the one he was sent to, not her daughter. Had the blessing been for the woman, a believer, then there was not difficulty. However, where was the daughter? The daughter was clearly not a believer. Had she been, then she would have been there herself. Look at this in contrast to the believers who came to Christ. This woman was asking for a blessing to her for her daughter. That is, she as a believer was asking for a non-believer. Lord Jesus is saying that he is not sent for the non-believers but for the believers. That is, he is sent only to the house of Israel, the believers. This woman's daughter was not of the house of Israel. The woman was, but the daughter was not.
It is a misconception to believe that the woman's daughter was a little child since Lord Jesus repeatedly healed little children at their parents request. No, this woman's daughter was an adult who had made adult decisions and became vexed with a devil. Thus, the woman's daughter was not of the house of Israel and Lord Jesus was making that point. Had the woman's daughter repented and come unto Christ then she would have readily been healed from the devil.
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Post by fitz on Dec 18, 2018 16:21:41 GMT -6
One gospel, one way of salvation, one baptism and One Lord and Savior! Doesn't matter if you are Jew, Gentile, Red, Blue or Green.
Galatians 3:28 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
2 Timothy 3:16 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
You can't divide the NT into sections depending on who you are. All of it is for all.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 18, 2018 17:09:56 GMT -6
Uscgvet, in response to your posting; perhaps the first thing to consider is that Israel split into two parts that are namely Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim was the dominant tribe in the north, and Judah was the dominant tribe in the south. Additionally, Ephraim was also referred to as Israel; however, Judah was never refereed to as Israel, but Jerusalem. It is for this reason that Isaiah's introduction at Verse 1:1 is perhaps most confusing wherein he states "Judah and Jerusalem" since both names pertain to Judah. That is, at the time Isaiah wrote his work, both names pertained to the southern kingdom of Judah. However, during our time Jerusalem pertains more specifically to the followers of Christ that are Ephraim. Thus, that which is confusing to the people of Isaiah's day is more clear to us and his introduction states Judah and Jerusalem (the Christians). That is, the two names (of Isaiah's day) pertain to Judah whose tribe remains in tact, and secondly, in our day, Jerusalem refers to Ephraim who in the last days are called Christians. Keep in mind that the "prophets" work in linguistic devises the most prominent of which are metaphor. Notice in Verses 1:2-4, Isaiah groups the two kingdoms (north and south) into the one kingdom "Israel" wherein he calls them "children, Israel my people, sinful nation" etc. In the second chapter we again have the two groups at Verse 2:1 "Judah and Jerusalem" but at Verse 2:3 you can see that the word of the Lord is from Jerusalem and this is the Christians. This point is easily proved by reading the Gospel According to John, Chapter 1. However, and more interestingly stated is that out of Zion shall go forth the law and since the metaphor Jerusalem in Verse 1:3 is Ephraim, then Zion in that verse is Judah. Thus, out of Judah goes forth the law and we know this to be true because the Torah of the OT came to us via Judah. Thus, as you can see, once it is understood how Isaiah placed his metaphors, then it is easier to understand his work. Again at Verse 3:1 Isaiah uses the Judah and Jerusalem terms for the latter day Jews (Judah) and Christians (Ephraim), and at Verse 7:17 both Ephraim and Judah are stated in the clear that Ephraim departed Judah via the king of Assyria. My point is that there are two houses to Israel and those two houses are Judah and Ephraim the Christians. That is, when the mantel of authority was taken from Judah, it was given to Ephraim, the Christians. With this understanding the works of the NT are easier to understand because for the most part the NT is from Ephraim and not Judah. Whereas, the OT has come to us from Judah. With that in mind the entire NT is to Ephraim, the Christians. Because, once Judah accepts Christ they are of Ephraim. That is, Ephraim is Israel and once Judah comes to the fold then they are once again in line with the house of Israel. Thus, they will once again follow the one God, Lord Jesus. In response to the point about the woman. Lord Jesus was saying that he was sent for his believers. He was making the point that the woman was the one he was sent to, not her daughter. Had the blessing been for the woman, a believer, then there was not difficulty. However, where was the daughter? The daughter was clearly not a believer. Had she been, then she would have been there herself. Look at this in contrast to the believers who came to Christ. This woman was asking for a blessing to her for her daughter. That is, she as a believer was asking for a non-believer. Lord Jesus is saying that he is not sent for the non-believers but for the believers. That is, he is sent only to the house of Israel, the believers. This woman's daughter was not of the house of Israel. The woman was, but the daughter was not. This is too close to replacement theology for my taste. I disagree that Christians are Ephraim. Paul did however write that we are Jews inwardly when we believe in Christ. Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up anything. I deleted my original post. I agree with Robert Breaker and he makes a very good case. I came up to the same conclusion studying the Word with the H.S. leading me.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 18, 2018 17:57:43 GMT -6
This is too close to replacement theology for my taste. I disagree that Christians are Ephraim. Paul did however write that we are Jews inwardly when we believe in Christ. Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up anything. I deleted my original post. I agree with Robert Breaker and he makes a very good case. I came up to the same conclusion studying the Word with the H.S. leading me. That is funny that we are "Jews inwardly." So a person becomes a "Jew inwardly" when they believe in Christ. Really? I had always thought that a person becomes a Christian when they believe in Christ. That is, if I am to be a "Jew inwardly" when I believe in Christ then what is a Jew when he believes in Christ? A Jew outwardly and inwardly? That is to funny. No. Anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian and not a "Jew inwardly." Why would anyone want to be a Jew? It provides nothing to be a Jew. But to be a Christian, a follower of Christ, now that is eternal salvation. They become Christ inwardly; now that is something to write about. Being a Jew inwardly seems silly to me.
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 18, 2018 18:43:23 GMT -6
This is too close to replacement theology for my taste. I disagree that Christians are Ephraim. Paul did however write that we are Jews inwardly when we believe in Christ. Anyway, I'm not trying to stir up anything. I deleted my original post. I agree with Robert Breaker and he makes a very good case. I came up to the same conclusion studying the Word with the H.S. leading me. That is funny that we are "Jews inwardly." So a person becomes a "Jew inwardly" when they believe in Christ. Really? I had always thought that a person becomes a Christian when they believe in Christ. That is, if I am to be a "Jew inwardly" when I believe in Christ then what is a Jew when he believes in Christ? A Jew outwardly and inwardly? That is to funny. No. Anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian and not a "Jew inwardly." Why would anyone want to be a Jew? It provides nothing to be a Jew. But to be a Christian, a follower of Christ, now that is eternal salvation. They become Christ inwardly; now that is something to write about. Being a Jew inwardly seems silly to me. I guess that makes a lot of the book of Romans pretty silly because that is from the mouth of Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit. Puts a whole new meaning to a lot of the scriptures regarding Jews and even Israel in the Bible. Not being combative, just making a point. I think these verses below are pretty straightforward to whom the Lord views as a Jew out of the book of Romans. Seems being a true Jew, not one physically or by genetics, but by these verses say is quite the goal to be aiming for in the eyes of God. I would suggest a study on an uncircumcised heart because this theme is all throughout the OT and NT on a continual basis. The Lord is impartial to no persons or people which includes genetics, race, nationality or even their current beliefs. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. Romans 8-9 is a good in depth study on this topic.
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Post by mike on Dec 18, 2018 19:01:58 GMT -6
Being a Jew inwardly...let's look at those who were Jews before there were "Jews" as the example and pattern to follow. The OT is full of these examples I'll throw out a few Abel Enoch Noah Abraham
Many more but theme is faith
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Post by Natalie on Dec 18, 2018 19:22:15 GMT -6
This is an interesting list of terms that Messianic Jews use and why they don't use the term Christian. (And some other interesting things) home.snu.edu/~hculbert/Yeshua.htm
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Post by Natalie on Dec 18, 2018 19:29:28 GMT -6
That is, if I am to be a "Jew inwardly" when I believe in Christ then what is a Jew when he believes in Christ? A Jew outwardly and inwardly? Exactly. Being a Jew inwardly means God has circumcised our hearts, put His Spirit inside, and we are now one of His people. We can partake of the promises of God. We are no longer aliens and strangers but His people. Someday those who are Jews outwardly only will recognize their Messiah and be true Jews inside and out. What a wonderful day!
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Post by boraddict on Dec 18, 2018 20:59:13 GMT -6
Can I say Uncle?
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Post by mike on Dec 18, 2018 21:17:29 GMT -6
This is an interesting list of terms that Messianic Jews use and why they don't use the term Christian. (And some other interesting things) home.snu.edu/~hculbert/Yeshua.htm John 13:35 "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”EDIT - Last night when I read through this link a few thoughts came to mind, most prominently the scripture I posted however I wanted to elaborate on why as I feel some may not understand my reasoning.I think that the information contained in the link is helpful in many ways. Speaking to and with with Jews who cannot relate to our salvation experience, who have knowledge of the persecutions of times past need to hear the message in terms they can relate to, without "putting up walls" or shutting their ears due to pains from history. Paul says this best of course:1 Cor 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.However, what struck me and stuck in my mind is that I felt as if the believing Jews, who are Christians should not 'require' this same type of labelling and manner of conversation. As I read through I felt as if our brothers and sisters who are Jews by physical lineage are presenting a bondage to terminology that is not the essence of who we are to be towards one another. Would or should a Messianic brother be unreceptive to me because I am a gentile and do not utilize terminology that is acceptable to him? I got a feeling of the Gentile believers being held accountable for sins against Jews for all history and as such Gentile believers should be paying some form of reparation. This kind of mindset permeates our society today on the secular level and is a divisive technique of the enemy. Our brothers and sisters who are of Jewish lineage should in turn overlook the sins of times past and love the Gentiles, forgiving, demonstrating to be His disciples in love.
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