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Post by boraddict on Dec 20, 2018 19:58:09 GMT -6
Then you need to read Matthew 15:21 - 28 AND Mark 7:24-30 Read them over and over and over. I can most assuredly believe that being called "a little dog" in Israel at that time was not a compliment. After Christ referred to her as a little dog, she acknowledged the title humbly and continued to show her faith. Matt. 15:21-28, "Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Mark 7:24-30, "And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid. For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed." Above are the verses that you have referenced and they do not say "little dogs." |
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 20:04:02 GMT -6
G2952. kunarion
kunarion: a little dog
Original Word: κυνάριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: kunarion
Phonetic Spelling: (koo-nar'-ee-on)
Definition: a little dog
Usage: a little dog, a house dog.
A pet. Not an unclean animal.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 20:10:38 GMT -6
Then you need to read Matthew 15:21 - 28 AND Mark 7:24-30 Read them over and over and over. I can most assuredly believe that being called "a little dog" in Israel at that time was not a compliment. After Christ referred to her as a little dog, she acknowledged the title humbly and continued to show her faith. Matt. 15:21-28, "Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour." Mark 7:24-30, "And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid. For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed." Above are the verses that you have referenced and they do not say "little dogs." I like to use the New King James Version because it still get's the point across. I don't just rely on the KJV. I also like to go to the original Hebrew/Greek to look up words. |
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 20:16:49 GMT -6
Point is Vet, he wasn't insulting her. He actually used a term of endearment. I know I love my own little dog. (He was showing his disciples that calling gentiles "dogs"...as in dirty dogs...was wrong).
Jesus loves the little children and the little dogs and calls both to come to him in faith and nothing else. Same path for both.
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Post by mike on Dec 20, 2018 20:19:47 GMT -6
I have a question, simple for me, hopefully comes across in the right vain. I am not sure how to word it without it possible sounding condescending but that's not the tone, so whoever responds please don't misunderstand.
If I share the gospel with a gentile, I just tell them they have to have faith, believing in Christ's atonement.
If I share with a Jew the gospel message to him/her should be believe but also follow specific commands to be saved?
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 20:26:24 GMT -6
I disagree with this article on many things. Mostly due to the number of assumptions made by the author. There isn't enough evidence to prove one way or another if the woman was actually offended by the remark from Christ. "Taken out of context, and especially in English" It wasn't England where this event occurred. Go to the middle east back in that day (or even today) and do what Jesus did, tell me how it goes. I recommend asking the person if they were offended by the metaphor. |
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 20:32:24 GMT -6
Ok Vet, last comment and then I am out. You can hold to that opinion, but I would encourage you to study the character of God more than you study bible verses. Once you understand Him, the rest will be opened to you.
He wants our hearts, not our sacrifices
He wants our faith, not adherence to religious laws and commandments
The woman was greater than the Jews in the room. She got it!
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 20, 2018 21:00:26 GMT -6
It's never faith plus works for salvation. A Jew does not need baptism for salvation. There is not a separate Gospel for Jews and a separate one for Gentiles. All are saved by faith in Jesus. John 3:16 Romans 10:9 Same Gospel Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. ^^^^Yes because the Holy Spirit had not arrived yet. This was to aid the apostles in spreading the gospel. The previous and remaining verses here:
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
^^^ I would like to point out some details here where I have underlined. He doesn’t say baptized in water. It is being baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus was not saying to go baptized in literal water because He is the ultimate cleansing.
17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]^^^ It does not say preached and baptized, only preached the gospel.
[And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.]
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ^^^Baptized in the name of Jesus, not a river, stream, sea or any body of water. Repent as in change your mind and understand that the only way sins have been forgiven is by the power of God, not something we do ourselves. Any form of thinking or reasoning that there is an ounce of something we could ever do to ensure salvation is our pride and arrogance in ourselves and not faith that God did this. All of it for all his creation and it was His plan all along.
EDITING TO ADD: When things are taken out of or added to the context, Scriptures are misunderstood. In non of these verses given does it say baptized in literal water after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and after the Holy Spirit came. Yes it was done in water as a demonstration of what Jesus was going to do with his blood shed to wash away our sins. mike makes a very valid point and poses good questions. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 21:38:08 GMT -6
I have a question, simple for me, hopefully comes across in the right vain. I am not sure how to word it without it possible sounding condescending but that's not the tone, so whoever responds please don't misunderstand. If I share the gospel with a gentile, I just tell them they have to have faith, believing in Christ's atonement. If I share with a Jew the gospel message to him/her should be believe but also follow specific commands to be saved? Paul is the apostle to the Jew FIRST then the Gentiles. This is in Acts, Romans, and other places I think. I think everyone here agrees with this...? When sharing the gospel (since we are after Acts 10 with Peter's vision that gentiles are no longer unclean or common (Acts 11)... like dogs....hint hint...), for both Jew and Gentile, before the Rapture occurs, we follow Paul's letters of 1 Corinthians 15 of Faith alone in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. After Rapture, when the body of Christ is gone, it's the Gospels in relation to the Jews and Hebrews -> Revelation. Faith + Works (Don't take the mark of the beast, don't worship the beast, survive to the end, beheading, etc...) That's my understanding so far. It seems many here may disagree on some of it? |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 21:43:21 GMT -6
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. ^^^^Yes because the Holy Spirit had not arrived yet. This was to aid the apostles in spreading the gospel. The previous and remaining verses here:
15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
^^^ I would like to point out some details here where I have underlined. He doesn’t say baptized in water. It is being baptized in the name of Jesus. Jesus was not saying to go baptized in literal water because He is the ultimate cleansing.
17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. 20And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.]^^^ It does not say preached and baptized, only preached the gospel.
[And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.]
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ^^^Baptized in the name of Jesus, not a river, stream, sea or any body of water. Repent as in change your mind and understand that the only way sins have been forgiven is by the power of God, not something we do ourselves. Any form of thinking or reasoning that there is an ounce of something we could ever do to ensure salvation is our pride and arrogance in ourselves and not faith that God did this. All of it for all his creation and it was His plan all along.
EDITING TO ADD: When things are taken out of or added to the context, Scriptures are misunderstood. In non of these verses given does it say baptized in literal water after Jesus was crucified and resurrected and after the Holy Spirit came. Yes it was done in water as a demonstration of what Jesus was going to do with his blood shed to wash away our sins. mike makes a very valid point and poses good questions. Did Peter baptize people in water as part of their salvation process? What in the world was the Acts 8, last part of 10, and first part of 11 all about if not water baptism...? |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 20, 2018 22:08:49 GMT -6
To me, the Savior was referencing the children of Israel, and not little children. Thus, the verses read:
Matt. 15:21-28, "Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children (of Israel's) bread, and to cast it to (the children of) dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the (children of) dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' (the King of Israel's) table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
Mark 7:24-30, "And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid. For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet: The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation (not of the tribes of Israel); and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter. But Jesus said unto her, Let the children (of Israel) first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children (of Israel's) bread, and to cast it unto the (children of) dogs. And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the (children of) dogs under the table eat of the children (of Israel's) crumbs. And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter. And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed."
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Post by yardstick on Dec 20, 2018 22:20:49 GMT -6
Further to my post above Paul tells more about this "division" of the gospel in Galatians. The apostles had a message for an audience of Jews as Pauls audience was to the Gentiles and therefore spoken in a different manner of understanding Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. I hadn't noticed it before (and this is a bit off-topic), but Gal 2:7 kinda puts the nail in the coffin of "Peter was the first pope" stuff. Do you think Peter was the first pope of the Jews? |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 22:42:25 GMT -6
To me, Matt. 15:21-28 & Mark 7:24-30 make perfect since with how the whole scene plays out with Jesus and the gentile woman due to what I see played out with Acts 10 and 11 and Galatians 2.
Jews are dismissive of gentiles at this time.
Gentiles are unclean people, common people, to the Jews. Jesus' comment of gentiles as dogs isn't out of the line with Acts 10 and 11 in mind.
And it certainly has the same feel with Galatians 2 when Peter was eating with gentiles and then all of a sudden gets up to eat with the Jewish believers.
It makes since to me. I don't know about everyone else here. :-D
Edit: Just now, I watched this video for the first time. I feel like this is the point I'm trying to make. Robert Breaker does a good job in my opinion.
I even see some new things I haven't considered with other topics.
I'm personally not dogmatic about the KJV like Robert is. But his points are valid.
Edit: I'm now dogmatic about the KJV as it is based from the correct source than what other translations are based from.
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Post by boraddict on Dec 21, 2018 0:49:43 GMT -6
To me, Matt. 15:21-28 & Mark 7:24-30 make perfect since with how the whole scene plays out with Jesus and the gentile woman due to what I see played out with Acts 10 and 11 and Galatians 2. Jews are dismissive of gentiles at this time. Gentiles are unclean people, common people, to the Jews. Jesus' comment of gentiles as dogs isn't out of the line with Acts 10 and 11 in mind. And it certainly has the same feel with Galatians 2 when Peter was eating with gentiles and then all of a sudden gets up to eat with the Jewish believers. It makes since to me. I don't know about everyone else here. :-D It appears to be a contextual problem. Lord Jesus traveled outside the boundaries of Judah "into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon." When confronted by the woman who was not of the ten lost tribes, he tells her that he was sent out of Judah to the lost ten tribes, and not to other peoples. She in turn responds as discussed previously. She was not of the ten lost tribes of Israel; nevertheless, she did receive a blessing for her daughter. Had the Savior been sent into Greece, Assyria, or any other place and been approached by anyone there, he would have said the same thing. The Father sent him to that area for a specific purpose and that was to the lost sheep of Israel. So it is with the apostles that went outside Judah or taught people other than the Jews. Lord Jesus simply directed them to do as he was directed to do. Go to the lost sheep of Israel and it has been the case to this very day. In the Savior's mission to Tyre and Sidon the woman was excluded because he was not sent to her. Thus, the conversation about the dogs pertained to those not of the tribes of Israel. Since the Jews regarded all who were not Jewish as gentiles, then to say that "dogs" in the conversation referred to all gentiles is incorrect. "Dogs" only refers to the gentiles who were not of the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That is, "dogs" did not include Samaritans. The greater meaning of this is that Lord Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel as in all his people Israel, and not only to Judah. He was sent to all Christians and those to whom he was not sent will benefit as well. |
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Post by mike on Dec 21, 2018 7:39:15 GMT -6
I have a question, simple for me, hopefully comes across in the right vain. I am not sure how to word it without it possible sounding condescending but that's not the tone, so whoever responds please don't misunderstand. If I share the gospel with a gentile, I just tell them they have to have faith, believing in Christ's atonement. If I share with a Jew the gospel message to him/her should be believe but also follow specific commands to be saved? Paul is the apostle to the Jew FIRST then the Gentiles. This is in Acts, Romans, and other places I think. I think everyone here agrees with this...? When sharing the gospel (since we are after Acts 10 with Peter's vision that gentiles are no longer unclean or common (Acts 11)... like dogs....hint hint...), for both Jew and Gentile, before the Rapture occurs, we follow Paul's letters of 1 Corinthians 15 of Faith alone in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. After Rapture, when the body of Christ is gone, it's the Gospels in relation to the Jews and Hebrews -> Revelation. Faith + Works (Don't take the mark of the beast, don't worship the beast, survive to the end, beheading, etc...) That's my understanding so far. It seems many here may disagree on some of it? So if I'm understanding your above post correctly, what would happen to a Gentile who are here during the Trib? My assumption is they reject the mark of the beast, and have faith? Is it just that or something else (more) required, like baptism (again)? Wouldn't this be a change in requirement for salvation for a Gentile now from before the rapture? The way i'm understanding you is that since the age of grace is over at the rapture, anyone who realizes they missed it will now require more than just faith? Which works would be required for either a Jew or Gentile? Are they different now or the same? I see what you are saying about beheading and refusing the mark, but isnt that just 'evidence' of the faith someone now has? Why consider either of those things a work? I have thought of myself in that possible scenario and honestly cant even imagine what kind of belief that would require. We have brothers & sisters today and throughout the ages that have had this kind of faith today and lose their lives over it. Is that works or just faith? Humor me here, but what happens to the very few who will refuse the mark, escape beheading and continue to reject the gospel? Would they be saved because they reject the mark and theoretically make it until the end? To answer your question - Yes it does seem many here disagree with some of it. I wont speak for others though, but can say that (for me) it is possible the venue we have here and communication between us leaves some room for error in understanding. Now I havent watched the Breaker videos and won't. I have watched a few of his some time ago and something about his style really sits wrong with me. Not saying he's all bad but, he comes across as very "churched" to me, but is a brother and leave it at that...point being some things are much more understandable in a video or spoken and written they lose some value. As a Christian I am asking more questions to gain understanding of your viewpoint as I do not see/understand the topic the way you seem to. As a moderator here I want to ensure this dialogue continues in the manner of us (all of us) trying to understand each other with respect. Sometimes we are wrong in our views and need each other to help us. I had struggled with the need to evidence works + faith as my understanding of James was askew. Too many verses were taught to me out of context and doctrines were built on those causing my understanding to be incorrect. Only when some folks here helped my understanding that faith alone is the requirement were my eyes opened. |
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