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Post by kjs on Dec 19, 2018 15:59:04 GMT -6
For those who wish to "read" a fairly concise version of what people mean when they say there are two gospels (The Gospel of the Kingdom and The Gospel of Grace)
Please note he (the owner of the website) -- is more along the lines of a Mid-Dispensationalist .... or {Mid-Acts Dispensationalist}
I think he makes some valid points and it does help clear up many questions (like why Jesus as a general rule ignored Gentiles) ....
BUT -- because the church environment I was raised in -- was the traditional Dispensationalist viewpoint ...... I am finding hard to "ditch the old" and replace it with the "new"
(Note: That is New for me ....Mid-Acts Dispensationalist have been around for awhile)
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 19, 2018 18:02:59 GMT -6
I took a look at the website kjs, and to me, that thought process is disturbing. There are no amens in regards to that website coming from this Christ-follower..
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 19, 2018 18:14:49 GMT -6
For those who wish to "read" a fairly concise version of what people mean when they say there are two gospels (The Gospel of the Kingdom and The Gospel of Grace)
Please note he (the owner of the website) -- is more along the lines of a Mid-Dispensationalist .... or {Mid-Acts Dispensationalist}
I think he makes some valid points and it does help clear up many questions (like why Jesus as a general rule ignored Gentiles) ....
BUT -- because the church environment I was raised in -- was the traditional Dispensationalist viewpoint ...... I am finding hard to "ditch the old" and replace it with the "new"
(Note: That is New for me ....Mid-Acts Dispensationalist have been around for awhile)
That was a good read. Thank you. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 8:58:27 GMT -6
Thank you, KJS. It's helpful to see where people are coming from. I don't agree with him. Especially that part that salvation "Required repentance, baptism, and faith + works." I believe that baptism and works are signs of repentance and faith, and I believe that is what the Bible teaches. Throughout the OT we see that God wants people's hearts, their faith and not the work of their hands. It doesn't mean anything if your heart isn't following Him.
Romans 4 speaks of Abraham being saved by faith alone. Nothing about Abraham repenting or being baptized. And it speaks against faith plus works.
My understanding of what is spoken of in the gospels is that the Jews were being called to leave their works based religion and return to believing by faith. To turn from where they were at to seeing the Truth. Repentance. Baptism is a symbol of cleansing. God had washed their hearts, cleansed them from sin. Baptism is still a symbol; it's never been required for salvation.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 9:22:20 GMT -6
All of this got me to thinking about something that I had heard taught before about the difference between Jew and Gentile. The Jews are God's people. They were set apart in order to lead the world to the true God. (Thinking of Rahab and her family, or of Ruth) But at the time of the Gospels they weren't doing it. It had become a religion of ritual, although there is always a remnant of true believers. Mary, Joseph, Elizabeth, Simeon, Anna. Anyway...John comes preaching "Repent!" Turn back to following God with your heart. They were baptized to show that cleansing that had taken place. They then asked John, "What shall we do?" Love one another instead of taking advantage of each other. "Show fruits in keeping with repentance." And they were to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. The Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world.
Gentiles are all those who do not follow the true God. They need conversion; a turning from false gods to the true God. That is why there is no shout of "Repent!" in Acts. Although, yes, after becoming believers they need to daily repent of sins in order to be in right relationship with God. Baptism should also be done. But none of that is for salvation. It is only by faith in the true God. Faith in the Messiah.
So, at first glance it does seem that God has two separate Gospels, but it's one in the same. It's always faith in the Messiah. Faith in His ability to cleanse us from our sins because of what He accomplished on the cross and with His resurrection.
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 10:18:34 GMT -6
Throughout the gospels, Jesus repeatedly shows how impossible it is to keep the law with the perfection God demands. It left the Jews scratching their heads and wondering how anyone could be saved with the bar set so high. They focused on that part of the message and failed to see how He was pointing them to faith in Him alone as the only way.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 20, 2018 11:13:21 GMT -6
Amen fitz and Natalie. The Gospel was/is/and will be One Message for All and applies to All the same way. I went to bed very disturbed by what that website was suggesting. Perhaps I am naive on the idea, but if the Gospel of the Kingdom was for the Jews, and Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were giving the account of it, then the Christian does not need to bother what Jesus was saying as He was not speaking to the gentiles...really? If I am incorrect or missing the point of that website, forgive, me, but that is what I gleaned from their points of view. I think what the christian churches fail to do is teach what Jesus was saying concerning the Kingdom of God. Jesus was not just talking about Salvation, He was defining Faith. and He has been teaching it to the world since the Fall of Adam. This topic of 2 Gospels needs its own thread perhaps. |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 20, 2018 11:54:09 GMT -6
Yea, I agree with Robert Breaker on RD. If you can provide a much better rebuttal, I'll research it. But so far, I find RD is a correct method to understand the Word of God. Jesus Himself, with the words from His very lips, proclaimed to the Gentile woman in Matthew and Mark that He was sent to the house of Israel. Jesus seemed frustrated with the woman and then only after much begging did he see her belief and heal her child. I don't see any forgiveness of sins during this event... I would be careful with Robert and this video. If I am not mistaken, this is the video where he explains by “rightly dividing” the word also means Christianity does not need to say the Lord’s Prayer as that was being told to the Jews only when the disciples asked him how to pray and not gentiles. Christianity according to him are not seeking the kingdom, but heaven. RB should listen to his own advice if that is what he really thinks. RB is a very avid KJV only Pastor and has flat out said he refuses to study the Greek and Hebrew because the KJV is the most accurate translation and he has already studied Greek/ original languages and doesn’t study them anymore. Except when it comes to the word harpazo, then he is all about the Greek. I have watched many RB videos and he contradicts himself often unfortunately. Translations are NOT the word of God, but translations of original languages. Sorry if anyone is KJV only, not trying to be offensive and apologize if it is. It’s one thing to be honestly ignorant however he makes the decision to be willingly foolish sometimes. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 11:55:59 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl I am wondering if what the church sometimes gets wrong is that they forget that the Bible is a Jewish book, kept for us by the Jewish people, and about a Jewish Messiah. When we become believers, we join that story. We don't start a separate "Christian" story. I have heard so many testimonies of Jews who say they were told the NT was only for Christians and yet when they started reading they were amazed at how Jewish it is. I think that website is trying to divide the "Jewish" part of the Bible from the "Christian" part when there should be no division. I think that's where the "Right Dividers" (in the OP) are getting it wrong also. They see a division and thus two Gospels.
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 12:38:29 GMT -6
cwood85 Sadly, my father has fallen victim to KJV-onlyism. I thank God for my parents who taught me about Jesus! But several years ago, he remarried and ended up in a very cult-ish church and adopted their KJV Only teaching. He's become extremely legalistic and unfortunately this has caused a real strain in our relationship. I keep preaching grace to him, but I'm pretty sure he thinks I am bound for hell because I don't read the right translation (exclusively). It breaks my heart to watch him work so hard for something he can never earn. It baffles me how so many can read the stories of Jesus rebuking the Pharisees, then turn right around and do the very same things!
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 20, 2018 12:56:43 GMT -6
cwood85 Sadly, my father has fallen victim to KJV-onlyism. I thank God for my parents who taught me about Jesus! But several years ago, he remarried and ended up in a very cult-ish church and adopted their KJV Only teaching. He's become extremely legalistic and unfortunately this has caused a real strain in our relationship. I keep preaching grace to him, but I'm pretty sure he thinks I am bound for hell because I don't read the right translation (exclusively). It breaks my heart to watch him work so hard for something he can never earn. It baffles me how so many can read the stories of Jesus rebuking the Pharisees, then turn right around and do the very same things! I am sorry to hear that fitz and know this is hard to deal with and makes trying to have loving and deep conversations almost impossible. I have a family member who is KJV only and I am pretty sure he thinks I am a heretic lol. This is why it is so important to hear and listen to the HS for truth and guidance. RB and many other channels have been unsubscribed by me when they start getting narrow minded and legal or stating things very contradictory to the Bible. One channel I used to watch Pastor stayed any other version but the KJV was Satanic. Unsubscribed! |
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Post by mike on Dec 20, 2018 12:58:54 GMT -6
I have been reading along ... While I have my own thoughts on this and like some posting am not in agreement with what is contained on the site KJ shared I did find that I was unaware of this doctrine. Since reading this yesterday one thing rings very loud in my heart and is consistent in all "gospels" EDIT - so we see Moses, Mark (perhaps via Peter), James (the Lords brother), and of course Paul. Lev 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”Jam 2:8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.Gal 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Great job in your above explanations Natalie |
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Post by mike on Dec 20, 2018 13:25:58 GMT -6
Further to my post above Paul tells more about this "division" of the gospel in Galatians. The apostles had a message for an audience of Jews as Pauls audience was to the Gentiles and therefore spoken in a different manner of understanding
Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 14:51:52 GMT -6
I have been reading along ... While I have my own thoughts on this and like some posting am not in agreement with what is contained on the site KJ shared I did find that I was unaware of this doctrine. Since reading this yesterday one thing rings very loud in my heart and is consistent in all "gospels" EDIT - so we see Moses, Mark (perhaps via Peter), James (the Lords brother), and of course Paul. Lev 19:18 Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.Mark 12:29 Jesus replied, “This is the most important: ‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ No other commandment is greater than these.”Jam 2:8 If you really keep the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.Gal 5:14 The entire Law is fulfilled in a single decree: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”Great job in your above explanations Natalie It's a new doctrine to me, too. I am glad you posted those Scriptures. That's what I got from John the Baptist when I was reading through the passage on him baptizing the tax collectors and soldiers. He basically was telling them to love God (repent) and to love others. I hadn't seen it that way before. |
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Post by kjs on Dec 20, 2018 14:56:27 GMT -6
Further to my post above Paul tells more about this "division" of the gospel in Galatians. The apostles had a message for an audience of Jews as Pauls audience was to the Gentiles and therefore spoken in a different manner of understanding Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. Actually mike -- that is one of the verses they (RDs) use to "prove" there are two gospels -- (Paul's and the disciples).... just saying ....
I have read most of his website (the one I supplied earlier) -- and like I said I see some valid points -- however some of the stuff seems to out in left field for me...
As far as KJVs only people --- it is fun to watch them squirm when you point out obvious errors -- one is the biggest is calling Passover -- Easter (Acts 12:1-4)
Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people.
Now, most KJV only-ers like to claim Herod was simply "acknowledging the New Holiday (Easter or Resurrection Sunday)" problem with that theory is it was not until the 3rd century before there was wide-spread belief in the Resurrection..... definitely NOT during Herod's time.....
The Greek word used in Acts 12 verse is pascha which has always been translated Passover.........
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