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Post by kjs on Dec 20, 2018 15:07:00 GMT -6
This has always been my favorite verse (once I understood what it was really saying)
John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
The whole point is that (Numbers 21) shows the people who were bitten by the serpents -- were HEALED simply by looking at the bronze Snake created by Moses......
So we too are HEALED by looking to Jesus Christ -- who was lifted up for us............
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The point being -- MANY, MANY Old Testament verses point to Jesus and what He would do (accomplish)
He was the SEED that God promised back in Genesis ---
So I think it is more of an interpretation error -- there is only ONE Savior and Salvation for BOTH Gospels presented (if u think there are two) all boil down to
WHAT JESUS DID -- He purchased our salvation by His Blood!
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 17:56:41 GMT -6
I don't follow man's interpretation alone. I use their lectures as tools when I study His Word. I agree and disagree based on my own studies, as do you, and as you should!
Robert Breaker, Chuck Missler, JD Farag, many others all make valid points on many many topics, as do all of you, which is why I'm here... to learn, study, and show thyself approved.
They, as all of you, are all tools of God doing their/your best.
I praise God for you brothers and sisters in Christ and this platform to discuss these things.
Now, I agree with Jesus, Chuck, Robert, and many others that Jesus was sent to the Jews first ("little children"), and then later to the gentiles ("little dogs") [dogs are not meant to be adorable in this context...].
Jews > Gentiles according to Jesus' own words; if you disagree, take it up with Jesus. They are his own words.
God sent Jesus to save the world. Jesus was sent to the Jews first as their King, then the rest of the world through the Jews would be saved, IF THE JEWS ACCEPTED HIM! They did not! They had Him beat nearly to death then nailed him to a cross...
Is there a disagreement here on this?
With that, there is absolutely a gospel of Faith + Works (repentance, baptism of water, belief Jesus is the Son of God) [Peter] vs [Paul] Faith Alone (belief in the work of Jesus shed blood and resurrection as a propitiation for sins) as what is needed to be saved.
Is there a disagreement on this here?
Jesus, Peter, James, John, and Hebrews teaches: Faith (The identity that Jesus is Son of God) + Works (repentance + water baptism) to Jews
Jesus and Paul's letters: teach Faith Alone (Believing in Jesus' work on the cross shedding his blood as propitiation of sins) to the Jews First, then the Gentiles
Is there a disagreement on this here?
In my own personal studies, I find Jesus is consistent with how he deals with Jews versus Gentiles.
In the Gospels, Jesus is all about Faith + Works with the Jews, but Faith Alone with Gentiles.
Acts is the same: Faith + Works with the Jews; Faith Alone with Gentiles.
But with Acts, we have the very curious verses where Peter himself agrees with Paul and even mentions Jews could be saved through Faith alone... That's the transition from Peter to Paul in Acts...
I have found that Chuck Missler, Robert Breaker, the website kjs posted, and others all agree with these topics.
Now as for the books of the NT. Do people agree or disagree that the letters Paul sent, James sent, John sent, Jude sent, and the Hebrew epistle have destination audiences they were meant for? i.e. Jews vs Gentiles...
The destination audience is usually found in the very first paragraph of each letter... Though John's and Jude's audience is a little trickier to derive.
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 18:34:58 GMT -6
It's never faith plus works for salvation. A Jew does not need baptism for salvation. There is not a separate Gospel for Jews and a separate one for Gentiles. All are saved by faith in Jesus. John 3:16 Romans 10:9 Same Gospel Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 18:37:06 GMT -6
Yes, the letters have destination audiences, but the Gospel is always the same.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 18:40:05 GMT -6
It's never faith plus works for salvation. A Jew does not need baptism for salvation. There is not a separate Gospel for Jews and a separate one for Gentiles. All are saved by faith in Jesus. John 3:16 Romans 10:9 Same Gospel Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 18:56:29 GMT -6
I know there is much debate on this because as you show baptism is commanded, but what do you do with those who make "death bed confessions"? What of the thief on the cross? I believe that faith is what saves and then baptism follows as an act of obedience.
Rom 4:2 "If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God" (Was Abraham baptized?)
Eph 2:8-9 for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We need to do nothing in order to be saved, but there are things we do as acts of obedience.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 19:03:58 GMT -6
I know there is much debate on this because as you show baptism is commanded, but what do you do with those who make "death bed confessions"? What of the thief on the cross? I believe that faith is what saves and then baptism follows as an act of obedience. Rom 4:2 "If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God" (Was Abraham baptized?) Eph 2:8-9 for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. We need to do nothing in order to be saved, but there are things we do as acts of obedience. The two verses you quoted are Paul. Not Peter. Paul taught faith alone results in a baptism of the Holy Spirit because that's what Jesus taught Paul in the Spirit. Jesus Himself, The King of the Jews was baptized twice, (I would even argue 3 times): water with John the baptist, blood on the cross (, and Holy Spirit from God I would argue) But in the cases of Jesus interacting with Gentiles in the Gospels, like the gentile woman, and Roman Soldier, there were no repentance, no baptisms of water nor Holy Spirit. Just Faith alone. That's it. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 19:15:50 GMT -6
But you shouldn't divide up the Word of God into Jewish sections and Christian sections. It's one Gospel. See my previous posts on this thread for my explanations on how I see baptism, repentance, Jew vs Gentile.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 19:24:28 GMT -6
But you shouldn't divide up the Word of God into Jewish sections and Christian sections. It's one Gospel. See my previous posts on this thread for my explanations on how I see baptism, repentance, Jew vs Gentile. John also taught that the Jews would be baptized by the Holy Spirit Luke 3:15-17 Jesus Christ was sent to bring division.. Luke Luke 12:51 "Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division." Though, this division Christ is bringing is could mean all kinds of things... The Word of God is still a collection of letters and scrolls, all inspired by the Holy Spirit. Those letters and scrolls still had destination audiences! I am not the one dividing up His word! He is! Why write the target audience? I'm not going to ignore those verses in His Word. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 20, 2018 19:33:45 GMT -6
Today I was at the Home Depot and saw a friend to whom I had previously discussed gospel matters. As I was explaining the difference between John the Baptist and John the Beloved as well as other points of scripture, an elderly man said to me "Thank you for discussing this, most are to afraid to do so." I shook the man's hand and stared at him in bewilderment. I did not know how to respond because the thought of not discussing Christ and the scriptures is foreign to me, and to be scared to share these things is beyond my comprehension. I simply stared at him and did not know what to say. After a while and I mean a few hours, I wondered why I could not say anything to this elderly man. I wish I could have got his phone number to call and talk scripture. That is the beauty of this site. We all know the truth; however, we all have some technical differences in our understandings. Nevertheless, it is these differences and our desire to teach one another that brings us closer together. So now, to justify my post on this thread, I can not see the Gentiles as "little dogs" as uscgvet has stated in his previous post.  |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 19:37:05 GMT -6
Today I was at the Home Depot and saw a friend to whom I had previously discussed gospel matters. As I was explaining the difference between John the Baptist and John the Beloved as well as other points of scripture, an elderly man said to me "Thank you for discussing this, most are to afraid to do so." I shook the man's hand and stared at him in bewilderment. I did not know how to respond because the thought of not discussing Christ and the scriptures is foreign to me, and to be scared to share these things is beyond my comprehension. I simply stared at him and did not know what to say. After a while and I mean a few hours, I wondered why I could not say anything to this elderly man. I wish I could have got his phone number to call and talk scripture. That is the beauty of this site. We all know the truth; however, we all have some technical differences in our understandings. Nevertheless, it is these differences and our desire to teach one another that brings us closer together. So now, to justify my post on this thread, I can not see the Gentiles as "little dogs" as uscgvet has stated in his previous post. Then you need to read Matthew 15:21 - 28 AND Mark 7:24-30 Read them over and over and over. I can most assuredly believe that being called "a little dog" in Israel at that time was not a compliment. After Christ referred to her as a little dog, she acknowledged the title humbly and continued to show her faith. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 19:46:15 GMT -6
what other animal on God's earth picks up scraps under a "master's table"?
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Post by Natalie on Dec 20, 2018 19:46:25 GMT -6
But the Gentile woman knew she was unworthy but still wanted the crumbs. Her faith saved her.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 20, 2018 19:49:05 GMT -6
Exactly... Where is the repentance? Baptism in water?
She's NOT a Jew! A "little child" or a lost sheep of the House of Israel...
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
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Post by fitz on Dec 20, 2018 19:51:23 GMT -6
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