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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2019 8:33:23 GMT -6
Personally, I believe that the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way" when the church is raptured...but not removed from the earth. Tribulation saints will be saved the same way they are now. Believe in the gospel, by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. It is only in the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that tribulation saints will be able to endure through the tribulation, and if necessary, be killed for their faith. My .02 What happens if a believer takes the mark of the beast? Rev 13:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. A few things: 1. I have followed all 19 pages of this thread and found most of the dialogue to be kind to one another. If we are to continue the "debate" please ensure we do so as brothers, not judging one another or each others salvation. whether you see scripture as faith alone or adding works to it, none of us is qualified to judge, it's way above all of our combined pay grades. 2. I have truly lost site of the original article on "rightly dividing" and think I need to re-read it as I believe this dialogue has veered way off that course. 3. There are far too many denominations that are under Christ. Not any single one of us should think we have a perfect doctrine. However we slice scripture and apply it we all make mistakes. 4. I like the way Renee Roland explains the gospel  5. To comment on the above supposition - what would a "believer" do when facing a guillotine? We shouldn't speculate about this and apply it to what we know today. It simply isn't a fair application. First we have ZERO idea what the mark of the beast really is. Some say a chip, some say mingling DNA with technology, some say hybrid/Nephilim, some say the beast is mans evil heart...and the list goes on. The assumption in the question is that the individual can believe like we do right now, where we have the Holy Spirit, and in the U.S. relatively persecution free. We're saying that we can apply our situation today in the U.S. to this scripture taking place in the future and not have much of the picture to help us understand. Not really a fair comparison especially given the context of the thread. Really think about it...If angels are preaching the gospel & demonic creatures are released from the abyss, we shouldn't try to squeeze what we know today into something we can only speculate about. Even further looking at the verses posted by USCGVET and those before - yeah maybe no one really believes Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. Suffice to say that it is possible and maybe probable that there will be very little people facing the guillotine. This Anti-Christ figure will fool very many with signs and false miracle. Jesus warned us of that as well. Matt 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possibleBut again this is just me speculating for something I have zero knowledge of. So with that I ask that if those who wish to continue this discussion stay on point and leave the speculation for another thread. Also those staying in this discussion do so with humility and respect for one another regardless of their current thinking. I admire BORADDICT's recent post. Sometimes we need to re-review our thinking, we shouldn't ever think we have the whole thing all figured out. EDIT - my apologies for locking the thread. I wanted to get this posted before another page flew by and this would be lost in the shuffle. |
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Post by fitz on Jan 3, 2019 9:04:19 GMT -6
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 3, 2019 9:13:50 GMT -6
Yes. I agree with the article. My point with the Great Tribulation was that we just don't have enough evidence to prove one way or another that what the Holy Spirit does with us today may not be occurring during that time to come. I didn't mean to redirect the thread, but I needed to show as a point the proof of guarantee with the Holy Spirit is at issue when dealing with the mark of the beast. |
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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2019 9:19:15 GMT -6
So three pages back I posted an hour long video shared with me by our former member Stephan (who's been lurking)...In listening to that "dicing" of scripture and the context of the audiences I can see how this "got questions" can actually further support the view VET has presented. The summary of that video is similar to what VET has presented. Christ came for Jews, was rejected opening the gospel to the Gentiles who Paul writes his letters to. The other 'apostolic' letters are written to Jews, however the slant in the video (and I think that of VET) is they are for the Tribulation. Once the indwelt believers are taken out of the picture, the OT sort of starts over again where the HS is no longer indwelling. Akin to my prior post...we really have no clue if that's correct. While the non-Pauline epistles are written to Jews, they are written to Jewish brethren. Can they be for the Tribulation? Certainly. Are they exclusively? Unlikely. Will they apply during? We really don't know |
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Post by fitz on Jan 3, 2019 9:30:18 GMT -6
So three pages back I posted an hour long video shared with me by our former member Stephan (who's been lurking)...In listening to that "dicing" of scripture and the context of the audiences I can see how this "got questions" can actually further support the view VET has presented. The summary of that video is similar to what VET has presented. Christ came for Jews, was rejected opening the gospel to the Gentiles who Paul writes his letters to. The other 'apostolic' letters are written to Jews, however the slant in the video (and I think that of VET) is they are for the Tribulation. Once the indwelt believers are taken out of the picture, the OT sort of starts over again where the HS is no longer indwelling. Akin to my prior post...we really have no clue if that's correct. While the non-Pauline epistles are written to Jews, they are written to Jewish brethren. Can they be for the Tribulation? Certainly. Are they exclusively? Unlikely. Will they apply during? We really don't know I know some believe that, Mike, but I don't, and I don't think the gotquestions article supports it. Here's my question...do we really believe that God will change the way people come to salvation after the cross? Didn't Christ die once for all? Aren't we promised the gift of the Holy Spirit once we believe on the Lord Jesus? In fact, how can one be a Christian without the Holy Spirit? I say, it's impossible. No Holy Spirit, no conversion. If this were the case then no one could be saved during the tribulation. |
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Post by fitz on Jan 3, 2019 9:36:28 GMT -6
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 3, 2019 9:53:29 GMT -6
I'm not questioning this statement or article at all, because I believe both your comment and the article are true during this age of Grace. But when I look at Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.This passage is talking about believers who: 1. "trampled the Son of God underfoot" 2. "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing" 3. "and insulted the Spirit of grace" I see judgement for this believer! A fiery one at that! What happened to Grace, Hope, and Peace with God? I see fear here. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 3, 2019 10:00:05 GMT -6
And just a few more verses down in Hebrews, the writer quotes the Old testament:
Hebrews 10:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
Where is Grace in that?
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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2019 10:04:01 GMT -6
I'm not questioning this statement or article at all, because I believe both your comment and the article are true during this age of Grace. But when I look at Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.This passage is talking about believers who: 1. "trampled the Son of God underfoot" 2. "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing" 3. "and insulted the Spirit of grace" I see judgement for this believer! A fiery one at that! What happened to Grace? I see fear here. But VET consider the audience...the BELIEVING JEWS 2000 years ago who were trying to incorporate animal sacrifice into the gospel, trampling the blood of Christ under foot along with the blood of bulls and goats. As time went on and shortly after Hebrews was written animal sacrifices were no more. I believe you may be conflating this here |
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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2019 10:05:18 GMT -6
And just a few more verses down in Hebrews, the writer quotes the Old testament: Hebrews 10: 37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.” Where is Grace in that? Again they Believing JEWS were drawing back to animal sacrifice, not accepting the only sacrifice necessary |
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Post by kjs on Jan 3, 2019 10:24:13 GMT -6
I am a computer scientist by trade these days. I've been one for 20 years. I follow logic every work day and sometimes on weekends. With a "Right Division" method, the Bible becomes logical... to me... maybe not to you, and that is OK with me. I'm sorry it's not OK with you. I knew there was a reason I liked you .... as a fellow Computer Program Developer .... every work day (and sometimes weekends) one must follow the LOGIC (and that means LINE BY LINE)
☠ sometimes that leads to danger -- "as in danger Will Robinson..." 💣 cause sometimes skipping a line destroys the logic being presented .........
BUT YES -- in this AGE of GRACE -- we are ALL SAVED the SAME WAY...... 😍
AND in my opinion -- these side issues (such as how people were saved in the past and how they will be saved in the future) really do not make a difference (except as semantics)
Salvation is a GIFT -- because of what Jesus Christ was able to accomplish...........
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Post by kjs on Jan 3, 2019 10:46:43 GMT -6
I don't believe that a true, Holy Spirit filled believer will be able to take the mark. I believe God will give them supernatural power to acquiesce to death rather than take the mark. Look at the apostles that were crucified, burned at the stake, etc. All they had to do was renounce their faith, but they didn't! But where does it say that in the Bible? How do you know God will give them supernatural power to acquiesce to death rather than take the mark? What if they lined up your children in front of you first? You're a brand new believer in Christ. Starving for food. All of you. Remember, you can't buy food without the mark. I read a BOOK -- probably a year or two back -- that had an interesting twisted on this very subject ..... (PLEASE NOTE THIS BOOK WAS FICTION -- and is only speculation)
Basically, A Family with a couple of kids -- ends up becoming "SAVED" just after the tribulation..... They go into hiding with other "Tribulation Saints" -- and are surviving -- HOWEVER, the daughter of the couple had an medical issue that needed regular drugs to continue to life. The Father unable to bare to watch his daughter suffer -- went and took the "mark" -- obviously new believer's who had trouble trusting that God with supply all needs..... So the father (for the rest of the seven years) -- supplies food and medicine for these group of hidden believers....
The tribulation ends -- and the father is thrown into the lake of fire (for a 1000 years) while the rest of the family and those hidden believers enter into the Millennium Kingdom ....
AT the end of the 1000 reign --- when the books were opened (Revelation 20:12) -- the Father was rejoined to HIS Family -- His name was found in the Book of Life!
AGAIN -- this was simply a fictional story.......
BUT, I can understand what this author was driving at --- THE BELIEF -- which placed the father in the Book of Life (because of what Jesus Christ Accomplished) .... over-came bearing the "mark" and the following 1000 year suffering the father experienced.......
I know , I know -- does not make it true ..... but at least something to think on.........
Remember -- we humans do not know ALL THE FACTS -- so speculation like the various scenarios given are -- just that speculations......
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 3, 2019 10:48:51 GMT -6
And just a few more verses down in Hebrews, the writer quotes the Old testament: Hebrews 10: 37 “For yet a little while, And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith;But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.” Where is Grace in that? But where does it say there isn’t grace? Where does this at all infer anything about salvation? My soul has no pleasure does not mean these individuals loose their salvation. It means God is insulted and disgusted! That’s it! Going back to animal sacrifices and rituals is what this is talking about, which yes is a complete slap in the face to what Christ did on the cross. This is exactly where you are inserting your belief and making scriptures say something that they are not. Whether you realize it or not, you are twisting the meanings around. I do not mean that to be combative, but I am sorry you are doing that and taking singular verses to qualify works+faith and salvation when they are talking about something happening at that moment, in the present, not the future. These scriptures are talking about behaviors and their outcomes not someone’s eternal salvation. God can be plenty ticked off at us and that does not mean we loose or get a mark off of our salvation. That isn’t logical whatsoever, it’s petty and chaotic. Do parents love their children more than God? If a child misbehaves does the parent dangle their life in front of them? One more bad move kiddo and your finished! No they do not. What do loving parents do when their child misbehaves? Corrects them, and that correction is based off of the type of misbehavior occurring at that moment. Does a parent come back a year later after their child misbehaved and punish them then? Absolutely not. The child would be completely bewildered and hurt. That would be a form of mental abuse leaving the child to be in fear constantly. Why do we think God does this???!!  Humans are not able to love more than God. We would never want to see harm come to our child no matter what they have done. We want to see them do GOOD and be healed from their sinful and broken ways and loving parents do anything they possibly can to help their child. Why do we not think God does this?? Like he is Santa with a good or naughty list and our eternal salvation is based off of our fallen and finate minds verses Him. Some of the comments in regards to what Christ did on the cross and how we limit him has left me a little heart broken. That the serious thought of us being able to do anything to ensure or loose our salvation is hopeless. What a hopeless and depressing thought for anyone. The only factor behind this sort thinking is pride in our abilities, not Gods. Our salvation was deemed before the creation of the world and there is plenty of scripture to hold that up. God is a big God and nothing is impossible with Him. He will not send us to an eternal torment like a genocidal maniac for something we never had a choice in the first place. He will do absolutely anything it takes to bring us to him through love, not force. He is our Father and any loving father would do the same for their children. This will be my last post on this thread. |
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Post by uscgvet on Jan 3, 2019 11:42:51 GMT -6
I'm not questioning this statement or article at all, because I believe both your comment and the article are true during this age of Grace. But when I look at Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.This passage is talking about believers who: 1. "trampled the Son of God underfoot" 2. "counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing" 3. "and insulted the Spirit of grace" I see judgement for this believer! A fiery one at that! What happened to Grace? I see fear here. But VET consider the audience...the BELIEVING JEWS 2000 years ago who were trying to incorporate animal sacrifice into the gospel, trampling the blood of Christ under foot along with the blood of bulls and goats. As time went on and shortly after Hebrews was written animal sacrifices were no more. I believe you may be conflating this here Though, you make a very strong point. Are the sacrifices also once again going to start up in the Tribulation? |
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Post by mike on Jan 3, 2019 11:47:55 GMT -6
uscgvetwe simply cannot be 100% certain they will or won't. Most think they will but we cannot be certain can we? Point being though...even if they do, wouldnt it make the most sense to re-read Hebrews to someone who is going to start sacrificing animals? Thus pointing them to the Savior (Heb 10:4 once again)
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