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Post by mike on Dec 27, 2018 7:37:53 GMT -6
uscgvet - I do appreciate you being very gracious in this thread and sharing your perspective on this topic. It has not been contentious or combative and that in itself is the way we should discuss things. You are seemingly the only one responding with this viewpoint and as I have read along and participated I'm thinking at times that I hope he doesnt feel as if he is being bashed or his viewpoint being denigrated. That being said I think at this point (for me) I too am going to bow out of the dialogue as it seems to have reached an impasse. Before I do however, I am concerned with this statement: Based on your understanding of Hebrews 6 it's hopeless for me right? I believed in Christ and completely turned away from Him, lived a debaucherous life with many of the same people I once told needed to accept Christ and repent of their sin. So I should finish out my days in living a lifestyle in enmity of God since I can never go back? OR I have to work my way back into God's grace and when I am judged it won't be for 'rewards' at the BEMA seat, I'll miss the rapture and be raised 1000 years later for the Great White Throne to be judged by my works, ultimately landing in the lake of fire as my name is now blotted out of the book of life? I am not trying to be sarcastic about this but this is how I'm interpreting what you've stated, perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. Dear Lord if I am understanding this correctly, I do hope that USCGVET is 100% incorrect in his viewpoint! Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.My other thought here is about Hebrews 6 - since it was written to Jews and not Gentiles, why would any of what I said apply? I am a dog, so it wouldnt be applicable to me...Although traditionally and stylistically the book of Hebrews seems to have been penned by Paul, if Paul wrote Hebrews, then his gospel wasnt only to the Gentiles? If he did write it maybe thats why he wrote it anonymously...In any event if Hebrews is for the Jew, I see Hebrews 6 as referring those who have been enlightened by the sacrifice of Christ as turning back to sacrificing cows, rams, sheep, doves, etc. If you backtrack to Hebrews 5 we see that Paul...I mean the writer of Hebrews is addressing babes who drink milk and cannot handle meat, then he pivots in chapter 6 to encourage and challenge them to leave those things (animal sacrifice) behind...
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 7:48:54 GMT -6
Hi USVG, I am not familiar with the AMP version. I like the King James because it is 1611 AD if my memory serves me correctly; and closer to the original source. If I could read German then I would go to that source because it is further back than the King James. I think some of the metaphors are lost in the newer versions because they are written to conform to the modern language. For instance what does Rev. 1:2 say in the AMP. The reason I ask is that any change to that verse would alter the message to wit: King James Version Rev. 1:2 1) "Who bare record of the word of God 2) and of the testimony of Jesus Christ 3) and of all things that he saw." AMP Rev. 1:2 (on line) 1) Who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God 2) and to the testimony of Jesus Christ 3) even to everything that he saw [in his visions]. As you can see there is a difference between the two versions. The King James identifies John who bare record of the Word of God (John 1:1-14), and of the testimony of Jesus (John 21:21-25), and everything that he saw (John 1:15-21:20) that is between his record of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Thus, Rev. 1:2 is telling us that the John of Rev. 1:1 is he who wrote the Gospel According to John. Whereas, the AMP gives Rev. 1:2 as the John who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God. Like, the AMP writers did not realize that the word of God is the Word of God from the Gospel of John. They did get the testimony of Jesus correctly and that is good. However, the ending of the verse that references the body of John's gospel is in error because the AMP provides a clarification that it is everything he saw in his visions. That is, the writers of the AMP thought John was speaking to the visions of the Book of Revelation when he was in fact speaking of his Gospel work wherein he describes what he saw. So you can see that the AMP is substandard with respect to Rev. 1:2. It is for that reason that I do not deviate from the King James Version. Yes I do know that there are errors in the King James; however, it is my opinion that there are more errors in the versions written since 1611. Even the NIV that I hold in high regard has its share of errors and perhaps fewer than the King James, but it looses some metaphors as well as the chiasmi that are easy to see in the King James. I only brought up the AMP or NKJV to show, in a more modern American English friendly text, what the general idea of what James was trying to convey in his first 2 chapters. Nothing more. I wasn't trying to be dogmatic with any translation. I can only be dogmatic with the copies of the original greek texts that we have today that were kept up over the centuries. Those are as original as possible. We don't actually have the originals physically penned by the hands of Paul, James, etc... What we have is what we have. And any translation we have will always lose something important as a loss of information from the original.  I'll try and do the same analysis with the KJV 1611 and show that the same idea is being conveyed by James by only reading the actual words within the context of the whole paragraphs and not injecting my own opinion or thoughts or anything like that. We should find that the same argument is being made by James that: Believers in Christ should not be showing partiality, doing so is a violation of the royal law and the liberty granted to us by Christ, and thus meaning you are in violation of all of the law. I will not edit this post any further, because when I edit posts, people start replying to the older version and don't see my additional changes. It's hard to convey messages here when I continue my though after posting.  |
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Post by mike on Dec 27, 2018 7:51:02 GMT -6
great article Fitz " Since Gentiles didn’t have this pre-conceived notion of a works based salvation, there was no need to persuade them from it. That’s why there’s no mention of repentance for Gentiles in the Book of Acts. It certainly isn’t because they weren’t sinners in need of a Savior." |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 8:09:14 GMT -6
uscgvet - I do appreciate you being very gracious in this thread and sharing your perspective on this topic. It has not been contentious or combative and that in itself is the way we should discuss things. You are seemingly the only one responding with this viewpoint and as I have read along and participated I'm thinking at times that I hope he doesnt feel as if he is being bashed or his viewpoint being denigrated. That being said I think at this point (for me) I too am going to bow out of the dialogue as it seems to have reached an impasse. Before I do however, I am concerned with this statement: Based on your understanding of Hebrews 6 it's hopeless for me right? I believed in Christ and completely turned away from Him, lived a debaucherous life with many of the same people I once told needed to accept Christ and repent of their sin. So I should finish out my days in living a lifestyle in enmity of God since I can never go back? OR I have to work my way back into God's grace and when I am judged it won't be for 'rewards' at the BEMA seat, I'll miss the rapture and be raised 1000 years later for the Great White Throne to be judged by my works, ultimately landing in the lake of fire as my name is now blotted out of the book of life? I am not trying to be sarcastic about this but this is how I'm interpreting what you've stated, perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. Dear Lord if I am understanding this correctly, I do hope that USCGVET is 100% incorrect in his viewpoint! Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.My other thought here is about Hebrews 6 - since it was written to Jews and not Gentiles, why would any of what I said apply? I am a dog, so it wouldnt be applicable to me...Although traditionally and stylistically the book of Hebrews seems to have been penned by Paul, if Paul wrote Hebrews, then his gospel wasnt only to the Gentiles? If he did write it maybe thats why he wrote it anonymously...In any event if Hebrews is for the Jew, I see Hebrews 6 as referring those who have been enlightened by the sacrifice of Christ as turning back to sacrificing cows, rams, sheep, doves, etc. If you backtrack to Hebrews 5 we see that Paul...I mean the writer of Hebrews is addressing babes who drink milk and cannot handle meat, then he pivots in chapter 6 to encourage and challenge them to leave those things (animal sacrifice) behind... If I sent you a gift as a check in the mail of $100,000,000 because you told me that you were robbed last night (lets say you lost a few thousands dollars worth of goods and some family heirlooms), and you thought the gift from me was just too much then precede to tell me by mail: "This gift was just too generous, I'll pay you back because I feel bad taking this much from you", ... that means it wasn't a gift to you, it was a loan. You yourself felt the need to incur this debt to pay back to me. So you start working to pay it all back to me (lets say over 10 years time). But throughout your work, you get robbed some more, even a few thousand more times. Are you going to send me another letter, telling me you were robbed a few thousand more times, hoping for more of a loan you wish to pay back? No. You're not going to do that. You're just going to keep on working. From my point of view, you were robbed, I gave you all that I had to give you. Not only that, I don't have a penny more to give, not even a Venezuelan penny. I'm completely broke! But you still think you owe all of that money back to me because you feel so bad about taking it all... Edit 2: Even more that that, I sold all my blood, both kidneys, both lungs, my heart, my hair, every part of my body, just so I could give you everything I had as a GIFT by check in the mail... So now I'm dead... But you still want to pay me back this overly generous gift, now you feel even worse, because you just found out that I died 10 years ago giving you everything while you were working to pay me back. That means you can't even ask me for more money even if you wanted too because I'm gone. Edit 3: But don't worry too much. It kinda made me upset that you thought my gift to you was a loan. That's OK, I see you are working hard to pay off the loan even though there is ALMOST no way you're ever going to be able to do it. I'll be just and balance your own works in your attempt to pay me back. But if you REALLLY want to pay me back in full: in order to do that, you'll have to give me back all that $100,000,000 plus sell ALL of your blood, both kidneys, both lungs, your heart, your hair, and every other part of your body.... Hmm, beheading sounds about right...? But you better do it quick, I don't think it's fair and just that you keep on living day by day where I lost my life 10 years ago... That's not fair and just. That is the general concept of Hebrews 6. And that is also exactly why Paul called that concept debt and not GRACE! Edit 1: and also with your Revelation 20:12 reference, see how that also aligns perfectly with James and Hebrews? You have to do something to justify yourself to counter balance out your own sins. Paul is out the window in the Tribulation. Edit 4: James 2 amplifies your debt that you took upon yourself to pay back by telling you that when you sinned, after having been a believer, you broke all the law and are guilty of all the law! So when you start paying back, it's intense on how much you owe! |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 8:44:35 GMT -6
This is Paul: Romans 4:24 "... It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him [God the Father] who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." <---- This is what God did. This is Hebrews: You need to read Hebrews 6. Not only can you lose your salvation, you were only given 1 chance to repent because you can't hang Christ on the cross again. Falling away after having Faith in Christ means you shamed God. And now God will only justify you by your own works from that point on. That's not Grace preached by Paul in Romans 4, works is debt according to Paul, works is not Grace through Faith. Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. ... 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Now Back to Paul:
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Now James
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
These are 100% not the same. James flat out tells you his own works justified him. But Paul claimed his works are not grace but debt!Um, USCG... When you go and perform work for someone, and they do not pay you immediately, who incurs the debt? You? or the person you worked for? Do you think God owes anyone anything, but what he has promised and not yet delivered on? Can you get more salvation by doing more works? Please see my response I just wrote to Mike on this question. I think it answers your question. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 9:55:56 GMT -6
Ok, fitz and yardstick.
You've posted quite a lot of material for me to chew through and I have not been giving you guys the attention you absolutely deserve.
I'm a guy which means I'm not as great at tremendous focus on multiple things at the same time as women seem to be. LOL. Yes, I'm making fun of guys here.
Women have multi-core processors.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 10:29:37 GMT -6
Here is a question for everyone. This is just a question, like a poll of sorts.
If you were a gentile that knew nothing about God or Christ:
If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God" and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved?
OR
If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God who was beaten half to death and nailed on a cross who died for our sins, who was buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later by God our Father who then came back and was visibly seen by those who witnessed Jesus when He was alive in Israel." and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved?
OR
Both are true?
Note:
(The second question is physically written in Acts 10:34-48 when Peter preached this to the Very First Gentile after the vision of unclean things becoming clean, and then further defined by Paul as "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8)
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Post by boraddict on Dec 27, 2018 11:25:08 GMT -6
USCG, you are a good sport and hold your position well in the debate. I have given my best arguments and can think of nothing more to add to this subject. Peace and love my brother.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 27, 2018 11:48:56 GMT -6
Here is a question for everyone. This is just a question, like a poll of sorts. If you were a gentile that knew nothing about God or Christ:If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God" and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR If I just walked up to you and said: " Jesus is the Son of God who was beaten half to death and nailed on a cross who died for our sins, who was buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later by God our Father who then came back and was visibly seen by those who witnessed Jesus when He was alive in Israel." and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR Both are true? Note: (The second question is physically written in Acts 10:34-48 when Peter preached this to the Very First Gentile after the vision of unclean things becoming clean, and then further defined by Paul as "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8) The whole point of God Emmanuel (Word made Flesh) was to undo the Sin of Adam, of which all men suffered, whether man knew it or not. The Chosen people of the old covenant demonstrated God's Plan: expose to the whole world Man's hardened heart to God's sovereignty. The New Covenant because of the Blood Sacrifice of God's Word-made-Flesh, began the process of how His Kingdom will come to RULE over ALL. Adam's Sin affected all men, the Lord's Work on the Cross affects ALL men. Faith in this WORD restores that relationship with the Father. It's a spiritual condition at the moment. It is a process that is not of works that a person can do. and since NO ONE can undo the Cross, THINK about that for a moment: No one can uncrucify Christ. But even with the Cross, we remain in the flesh, unglorified, and prone to operate of our own heart's desire. The WHOLE world is on this Plan even if they don't know it. We are not talking about Salvation, we are talking about the heart of a man, each one of us. Salvation is there, but who is LORD over your life to receive it? I asked you, vet, what the Holy Spirit was showing to you. You gave me an answer. I see it differently than you and yet also feel led by the Spirit in my Walk with Him, so who is right? The question remains then WHY the difference of opinion in regard to jew verses gentile "gospels"? Chosen verses the Called/Chosen? This dispensation or that? Because... the Lord has each one of us right where He has us and our Faith is a daily event and struggle until the glorification happens, or we die a physical death. We call it the age of Grace (the christians do) because there was a physical event that we can point to, but God has been full of Grace all along because He would send His Son to begin the process of undoing the problem Man has with God...his flesh. Sidenote: Woman was not created from dust, but from man's flesh (a rib) the same Rib that was Pierced for our Transgression. Do you see how deep the Story is? It goes WAY beyond the jew or the gentile...this woman, this flesh, anything that is of man, including the religion he tries to espouse to, THAT is the thing of which God intends on destroying. We are of the Spirit when we answer His Call, we can not answer His Calling by our flesh. THAT is what the New Covenant started for man. A WAY... the WAY..through the Spirit..and thanks be to God we are told we WILL BE CHANGED..in a twinkling, should we be alive and remain after the Dead in Christ receive this immortality. Flesh can not inherit the Kingdom of God. How one gains entry? through HIS SON.. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 12:24:10 GMT -6
USCG, you are a good sport and hold your position well in the debate. I have given my best arguments and can think of nothing more to add to this subject. Peace and love my brother. I have nothing but love for all of you! Peace to you too.  |
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Post by kjs on Dec 27, 2018 12:58:19 GMT -6
Here is a question for everyone. This is just a question, like a poll of sorts. If you were a gentile that knew nothing about God or Christ:If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God" and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR If I just walked up to you and said: " Jesus is the Son of God who was beaten half to death and nailed on a cross who died for our sins, who was buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later by God our Father who then came back and was visibly seen by those who witnessed Jesus when He was alive in Israel." and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR Both are true? Note: (The second question is physically written in Acts 10:34-48 when Peter preached this to the Very First Gentile after the vision of unclean things becoming clean, and then further defined by Paul as "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8)
What -- are you trying to put in a "trick" question(s)?
Technically, they are both true.... for just as Jesus proclaimed to Nicodemus -- in John 3 (14-15) "... as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life...." As it is described in Numbers 21:4-9 -- the cure only required "A LOOK" -- for the bitten to be "saved" from the Bite.
BUT they (the bitten) ALSO had to have FAITH -- that the cure was received by Looking -- and that only comes about by knowledge of "knowing the why" -- so they (the bitten) had to know (or be told) that they needed to look if bitten.
So technically, just knowing "Jesus is the Son of God" could save -- having the full knowledge of "the why" -- (He was beaten, crucified, died, was buried, was raised back to life...) makes the Faith for the BELIEF more firm and easier to have -- so the second question to closer to the TRUE version....
HOWEVER -- and this is the real kicker -- so to speak -- neither question as outlined above produces SAVING FAITH !!!!
TO PRODUCE SAVING FAITH -- the individual must accept/understand they are in NEED of such salvation .... without the recognition of the NEED -- neither of "ABOVE information" will work because they DO NOT understand the need and the solution to that need........
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 13:39:08 GMT -6
Here is a question for everyone. This is just a question, like a poll of sorts. If you were a gentile that knew nothing about God or Christ:If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God" and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR If I just walked up to you and said: " Jesus is the Son of God who was beaten half to death and nailed on a cross who died for our sins, who was buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later by God our Father who then came back and was visibly seen by those who witnessed Jesus when He was alive in Israel." and that's all I said, and you believed it... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR Both are true? Note: (The second question is physically written in Acts 10:34-48 when Peter preached this to the Very First Gentile after the vision of unclean things becoming clean, and then further defined by Paul as "the gospel" in 1 Corinthians 15:1-8)
What -- are you trying to put in a "trick" question(s)?
Technically, they are both true.... for just as Jesus proclaimed to Nicodemus -- in John 3 (14-15) "... as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life...." As it is described in Numbers 21:4-9 -- the cure only required "A LOOK" -- for the bitten to be "saved" from the Bite.
BUT they (the bitten) ALSO had to have FAITH -- that the cure was received by Looking -- and that only comes about by knowledge of "knowing the why" -- so they (the bitten) had to know (or be told) that they needed to look if bitten.
So technically, just knowing "Jesus is the Son of God" could save -- having the full knowledge of "the why" -- (He was beaten, crucified, died, was buried, was raised back to life...) makes the Faith for the BELIEF more firm and easier to have -- so the second question to closer to the TRUE version....
HOWEVER -- and this is the real kicker -- so to speak -- neither question as outlined above produces SAVING FAITH !!!!
TO PRODUCE SAVING FAITH -- the individual must accept/understand they are in NEED of such salvation .... without the recognition of the NEED -- neither of "ABOVE information" will work because they DO NOT understand the need and the solution to that need........
------------------------ 1. My question was posed to a Gentile who knew nothing about God or Jesus 2. Jesus (the King of Jews) was talking to Nicodemus, a Jew. Remember, Jesus sent his disciples out to the Jews and not to go to the Gentiles. And Jesus said Himself “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 3. Where in Numbers did the called out ones with Moses have faith when they looked at the bronze serpent? I don't see that. Are you applying an assumption that they did have faith? I see that they just turn to where the snake was raised up and looked at it. Where is the faith in that? Besides, Why in the world were the fiery serpents placed there in the first place? ... Was it because they had Faith in God? ... Or lack of Faith in God? They had to do something to get healed, not have faith that the snake was there to heal them, and so they had no need to look at it because they believed. They had to look at it. That's works. ------------------------ I'll have to research the "TO PRODUCE SAVING FAITH" comment. That almost sound like you must do something to prove to others, or God, you have faith... instead of just believing in the Gospel... I don't want to misunderstand what you stated. I assume you were not meaning Faith+Works? Correct? |
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Post by kjs on Dec 27, 2018 14:24:36 GMT -6
1. My question was posed to a Gentile who knew nothing about God or Jesus 2. Jesus (the King of Jews) was talking to Nicodemus, a Jew. Remember, Jesus sent his disciples out to the Jews and not to go to the Gentiles. And Jesus said Himself “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 3. Where in Numbers did the called out ones with Moses have faith when they looked at the bronze serpent? I don't see that. Are you applying an assumption that they did have faith? I see that they just turn to where the snake was raised up and looked at it. Where is the faith in that? Besides, Why in the world were the fiery serpents placed there in the first place? ... Was it because they had Faith in God? ... Or lack of Faith in God? They had to do something to get healed, not have faith that the snake was there to heal them, and so they had no need to look at it because they believed. They had to look at it. That's works. ------------------------ I'll have to research the "TO PRODUCE SAVING FAITH" comment. That almost sound like you must do something to prove to others, or God, you have faith... instead of just believing in the Gospel... I don't want to misunderstand what you stated. I assume you were not meaning Faith+Works? Correct?
Ok, now it appears you are just twisting words ....
You state your question .... "My question was posed to a Gentile who knew nothing about God or Jesus "
Most likely such a gentile would come back with which god -- Zeus, Jupiter, (or whomever else) ... followed by with who the god slept with who produced the son.....
Yes, I mention the bronze serpent to show the point because it is what Jesus mentioned on "the why" of things..... the FAITH mentioned in that story is they were bitten and they had been told they simply had to LOOK toward the serpent (hung up for all to see) -- there was NO work involved -- it was simply belief that by looking they were healed.
I did not point to the story so you could argue whether it was Jewish or gentile story -- it has nothing to do with Gentile or Jew -- it simply was an example of what Jesus defined as "SAVING FAITH"
Your acting like "LOOKING" is a work -- really -- if that be true why was the quote from Jesus -- about looking at a women "with lust in the heart" was the SIN and not simply the Looking? Looking can in not shape or form be consider a "work" -- though I grant it is an action......
No, my comment of "Saving Faith" is NOT WORKS and Faith.....
You can have all the knowledge in the world -- Jesus being the Son of God. Jesus suffering, dying, buried, and raised again....
BUT until an individual understands that they are in NEED of a SAVIOR -- it is worthless .... because they are still self-centered and believe they can save themselves
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Great salvation is to everyone who believes? BUT WHAT ARE THEY BELIEVING? Simply that Jesus is the Son of God -- Hardly, we are told demons believe that and tremble
Belief That Jesus suffered crucifixion; died, was buried, and rose the third day ... that is closer --- but it does NOT answer the WHY.... Yes, the resurrection was something "NEW" -- but there have been several "MYTHS" about God's and Heroes raising from the dead .....
WHAT MAKES this story different?
No, it is not about a Belief in a Person (though that is part of it)....
No, it is not belief about a Person's Actions (though that is part of it as well)....
IT is Belief -- that because of this person's Actions (because He was the Son of God) AND because He was without Sin -- because of this combination that something was GRANTED to the Individual.
The Belief / Faith / Trust -- has to be in the Person Doing it -- As well as how His actions Accomplished it -- AND the Primary Key (which it seems you missed in explaining in your example) -- is believing this APPLIES to ME (or the individual)
Until it gets back to the Application (who is receiving) it is not saving........
No, I do not think Receiving is a work ... and that is what I mean by Accepting / Understanding.....
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 14:44:39 GMT -6
1. My question was posed to a Gentile who knew nothing about God or Jesus 2. Jesus (the King of Jews) was talking to Nicodemus, a Jew. Remember, Jesus sent his disciples out to the Jews and not to go to the Gentiles. And Jesus said Himself “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 3. Where in Numbers did the called out ones with Moses have faith when they looked at the bronze serpent? I don't see that. Are you applying an assumption that they did have faith? I see that they just turn to where the snake was raised up and looked at it. Where is the faith in that? Besides, Why in the world were the fiery serpents placed there in the first place? ... Was it because they had Faith in God? ... Or lack of Faith in God? They had to do something to get healed, not have faith that the snake was there to heal them, and so they had no need to look at it because they believed. They had to look at it. That's works. ------------------------ I'll have to research the "TO PRODUCE SAVING FAITH" comment. That almost sound like you must do something to prove to others, or God, you have faith... instead of just believing in the Gospel... I don't want to misunderstand what you stated. I assume you were not meaning Faith+Works? Correct?
Ok, now it appears you are just twisting words ....
You state your question .... "My question was posed to a Gentile who knew nothing about God or Jesus "
Most likely such a gentile would come back with which god -- Zeus, Jupiter, (or whomever else) ... followed by with who the god slept with who produced the son.....
Yes, I mention the bronze serpent to show the point because it is what Jesus mentioned on "the why" of things..... the FAITH mentioned in that story is they were bitten and they had been told they simply had to LOOK toward the serpent (hung up for all to see) -- there was NO work involved -- it was simply belief that by looking they were healed.
I did not point to the story so you could argue whether it was Jewish or gentile story -- it has nothing to do with Gentile or Jew -- it simply was an example of what Jesus defined as "SAVING FAITH"
Your acting like "LOOKING" is a work -- really -- if that be true why was the quote from Jesus -- about looking at a women "with lust in the heart" was the SIN and not simply the Looking? Looking can in not shape or form be consider a "work" -- though I grant it is an action......
No, my comment of "Saving Faith" is NOT WORKS and Faith.....
You can have all the knowledge in the world -- Jesus being the Son of God. Jesus suffering, dying, buried, and raised again....
BUT until an individual understands that they are in NEED of a SAVIOR -- it is worthless .... because they are still self-centered and believe they can save themselves
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
Great salvation is to everyone who believes? BUT WHAT ARE THEY BELIEVING? Simply that Jesus is the Son of God -- Hardly, we are told demons believe that and tremble
Belief That Jesus suffered crucifixion; died, was buried, and rose the third day ... that is closer --- but it does NOT answer the WHY.... Yes, the resurrection was something "NEW" -- but there have been several "MYTHS" about God's and Heroes raising from the dead .....
WHAT MAKES this story different?
No, it is not about a Belief in a Person (though that is part of it)....
No, it is not belief about a Person's Actions (though that is part of it as well)....
IT is Belief -- that because of this person's Actions (because He was the Son of God) AND because He was without Sin -- because of this combination that something was GRANTED to the Individual.
The Belief / Faith / Trust -- has to be in the Person Doing it -- As well as how His actions Accomplished it -- AND the Primary Key (which it seems you missed in explaining in your example) -- is believing this APPLIES to ME (or the individual)
Until it gets back to the Application (who is receiving) it is not saving........
No, I do not think Receiving is a work ... and that is what I mean by Accepting / Understanding.....
It was not my intention at all to twist any words whatsoever. I just want to know, as of this moment in time, 2018 years after Christ's resurrection, here as we type these letters... with a Yes or No. Let me define believe first: From the KJV 1611 dictionary: BELIE'VE, v.t. To credit upon the authority or testimony of another; to be persuaded of the truth of something upon the declaration of another, or upon evidence furnished by reasons, arguments, and deductions of the mind, or by other circumstances, than personal knowledge. When we believe upon the authority of another, we always put confidence in his veracity. av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/believe.htmlIf you were a gentile that knew nothing about God or Christ, in the year of our Lord 2018:If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God" and that's all I said, and you believed it with all your heart (God knows your heart)... No evidence visible... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR If I just walked up to you and said: "Jesus is the Son of God who was beaten half to death and nailed on a cross who died for our sins, who was buried, and rose from the dead 3 days later by God our Father who then came back and was visibly seen by those who witnessed Jesus when He was alive in Israel." and that's all I said, and you believed it with all your heart (God knows your heart)... No evidence visible... would you instantly be baptized by the Holy Spirit at that moment and be considered justified and righteous by Faith and be saved? OR Both are true? OR Neither are true? |
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Post by sawdy on Dec 27, 2018 15:08:48 GMT -6
I have been reading the posts but not as in depth as I have in times past. Christmas has kept my focus away. I don't really want to reply because I haven't had much time to reread and formulate what I would like to say and honestly feel I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but I do want to share what the holy spirit allowed me to understand this morning while I was driving to town and listening (and singing) Christmas carols.
We all have had parents. Whether we want them or not, or whether they wanted us or not, there was still a person who did things for you and cared for you at a time in your life that you were unable to do those things for yourself. This equates to the gift of salvation. It is there whether you want to acknowledge it or not. At times some of us have acknowledged and thanked our parents, and then later decided they had wronged us in some way, but you can't take back the fact that they took care of you when you were unable to care for yourself.
Some of us choose to be thankful for what they did for us, some of us blame them for wrongs, some of us cut them from our lives, some of us end up reciprocating the care and love shown to us as we care for elderly parents in their old age. None of this negates or amplifies the original gift.
I then think of this from the parent point of view. Jesus chose to gave his life, to sacrifice it to give us the gift of salvation. He did this before he knew who we would turn out. Before he knew whether or not we would say thank you or do things for him (spread the gospel message). The gift was given. All that he asked of us is to acknowledge that the gift was given. (John 3:16) to receive his blessing. As a parent, we are happy when we have a good kid, the one that follows the rules we set out, that listens to our guidance, but that doesn't negate all the care we gave them when they were helpless babes. We gave them that care no knowing how they would turn out. They get to choose their path, whether they want a relationship with us or not, whether they end up in jail or not, etc. All we ask is that they call us Mom or Dad, in remembrance of the gift, to acknowledge the gift we gave them.
The more we do for our parents is acknowledged by the rewards they give us. At some point in the relationship there is a will. When the will is drafted, it can still be changed, until the time comes that it is read. That is a when it is fixed.
If the child makes the choice to 100% cut out the parent and rebuke their gift, they are "rewarded" by having their name removed from the will. Very few children will do this as most still acknowledge that they were once helpless and needed help.
Then there are the children who pretend to be helpful to their parents, but all the time speak contempt behind their back, steal from them, etc. They are those who are acknowledged when the will is read as there is now no inheritance to give them left. No only is there name removed from the will, but they are rewarded by bestowing them what there actions were the equivalent of. They are punished for their wrongdoings.
There are those children that acknowledged they were helpless but turned their back but came home and rekindled their acknowledgement. There name is listed favorable in the will and they receive an inheritance.
There are those who stayed true and were the one to look after there parents in the day-to-day, everyday without fail. There name isn't any larger in the will but they do receive the largest share of the inheritance.
It is not as polished a thought that I would like to have, but it really helped me today to understand faith versus the rewards at the bema seat.
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