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Post by boraddict on Dec 26, 2018 11:10:54 GMT -6
USVG, I do see the difficulty between our understanding of James 2. You are using the word "partiality" as in being partial or having a preference and I am not using the King James translation. Following is the verse in question from your previous posting and the same verse from my previous posting:
your reference: James 2:1 "My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with partiality."
my reference: 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
I think it is fair to say that James 2:1 has 3 parts as follows:
1) "My brethren"
2) "do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ" or "have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory"
3) "with partiality" or "with respect of persons"
This is scripture at its best. So, does James 2:1 mean to not be partial to others or does it mean to not give respect to others. If we are partial then we make a decision to give preference one over another; however, if we have respect then we are making a decision elevate one and not the other. That is, to be partial is to be biased whereas to be respectful is be in awe. Thus, to be partial between the rich and poor is not the same as being respectful to the rich over the poor.
KJV James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
Notice in Verse 2:3 that it is respect to the one with the gold ring that causes the follower of Christ to be partial and a judge of evil thoughts in Verse 2:4. Thus, it is the respect that causes the partiality and not the other way around. Thus, it is the respect to the wealthy over the poor that is at the core of the problem because the gospel is to the poor more so than the wealthy. Thus, if respect is given to the wealthy and they are placed in preference to the poor then it is that judgment that causes the sin; the judgment to hold the wealthy in preference to the poor.
Thus, it is not fair to extrapolate from James who is speaking to a preference of the wealthy over the poor to things like loving your wife over the love to the Savior. You are comparing apples to oranges. The classic example is the LDS (Mormons). As you might guess I live in Mormon country. They give preference in their church to the wealthy. Thus, if they start a new church building in an area they will coose as their leaders the wealthy young rather than the poor old for their leadership. I remember one story that in South America they (the LDS) were starting a new Stake (a division of their church organization). In that area were older men and women as well as children, parents, etc. However, rather than choosing one of the older men to be the stake president, they choose a college graduate of perhaps 24 years of age. Because, the college graduate represented greater success, wealth, etc. That is what these verses in James are calling to shame. That we should not base our decision of how we see one another upon wealth; a concept that is very hard to follow in any society.
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Post by kjs on Dec 26, 2018 13:11:36 GMT -6
This is a tough one KJ & BORA, but maybe hearing from someone you know would be able to shine some light on this. I accepted Christ in 1994 as my savior but turned from Him around 2005 or so. The rejection was more to that of a "following" His ways rather than saying "you are not the Savior of the world", however over the course of several years the rejection was complete. I rejected everything that has to do with Christ and His kingdom and led my life the way I wanted to. I became my own god, on the throne of my heart, which is truly anti-Christ. I am not proud of the things I've done. After having been enlightened, told many of my conversion, I ran back to my own ways after years of diligently studying. There have been many who have followed a similar path. But then God who is rich in mercy "slapped me in the head" with something called the Great Sign. He made Rev 12:1-2 as real as the screen I watched the video on! Although from my perspective I thought I had lost my salvation, I am certain God didnt see it that way! As I watched and heard more about this once in a lifetime sign from heaven I thought "if He can forgive the Israelites for their unbelief, He can forgive me too". I have no other thing to offer on this than I believe that teaching is erroneous. The unpardonable sin was attributing works of the Holy Spirit (through Jesus) to the power of Satan. As KJ says above, we don't lose Gods grace from our lives. We may put the free gift in a closet or somewhere out of sight but its non-fundable. Once He gives it He wont take it back  If my rejection of Him was unpardonable, then my faith in Him is in vain. Anything I have done for Him over the last few years is then an effort of my own flesh which would be counter to Him working through me. (I am not boasting in anything as I have done very little to further the kingdom.) But how else can I explain the love and faith I have for Him who first loved me and continued to do so even though I walked away from Him? mike feel free to elaborate more on your story ........
Yes, I am a firm believer in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and I will defended it every where I see it challenged -- because over and over again when it is challenged it all boils down to someone doing something or someone not doing something..... THAT IS JUST IT FOLKS -- there is NOTHING you can do to earn salvation -- just like there is nothing you can do to LOSE IT....
HOWEVER; (and Mike you may be able to speak more to this) -- YOU (or someone) can WALK AWAY from God -- for a season -- what it means is you lose fellowship with God and you grieve the Holy Spirit (since He resides within you) ... when that happens -- you have not lost your salvation -- you have lost your fellowship.
At which point (and please note this is my phrase -- you may have another) -- God slaps you upside the head with a two-by-four and says hey get back here -- you-silly-willy I am waiting to greet you with wide-open arms!
If you want a verse for my two-by-four theory --- simply look at Luke 15:11-32 -- where the youngest son takes off on his own and survives on his own -- until he starts eating PIG Scraps for his supper -- and he finally remembers his dad's servant ate better than that ....and starts his return.......
AND IF YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE SONG without shedding a tear .......... then I feel sorry for you...........
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Post by mike on Dec 26, 2018 13:35:24 GMT -6
Yes Sir you have spoken well regarding fellowship rather the loss thereof...I recall vividly saying to myself "I'm ignoring God on purpose because I want to do what I want to do" even though I fully knew it was wrong. With that I ended my fellowship with Him, however He did not choose to end His with me....
Looking back on this wayward time, I realize that He was still involved in my paths, directing me to a place where I would need to be with Him and of course just in time.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 26, 2018 20:33:12 GMT -6
USVG, I do see the difficulty between our understanding of James 2. You are using the word "partiality" as in being partial or having a preference and I am not using the King James translation. Following is the verse in question from your previous posting and the same verse from my previous posting: your reference: James 2:1 "My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with partiality." my reference: 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. I think it is fair to say that James 2:1 has 3 parts as follows: 1) "My brethren" 2) "do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ" or "have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ the Lord of glory" 3) "with partiality" or "with respect of persons" This is scripture at its best. So, does James 2:1 mean to not be partial to others or does it mean to not give respect to others. If we are partial then we make a decision to give preference one over another; however, if we have respect then we are making a decision elevate one and not the other. That is, to be partial is to be biased whereas to be respectful is be in awe. Thus, to be partial between the rich and poor is not the same as being respectful to the rich over the poor. KJV James 2:2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; 3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: 4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Notice in Verse 2:3 that it is respect to the one with the gold ring that causes the follower of Christ to be partial and a judge of evil thoughts in Verse 2:4. Thus, it is the respect that causes the partiality and not the other way around. Thus, it is the respect to the wealthy over the poor that is at the core of the problem because the gospel is to the poor more so than the wealthy. Thus, if respect is given to the wealthy and they are placed in preference to the poor then it is that judgment that causes the sin; the judgment to hold the wealthy in preference to the poor. Thus, it is not fair to extrapolate from James who is speaking to a preference of the wealthy over the poor to things like loving your wife over the love to the Savior. You are comparing apples to oranges. The classic example is the LDS (Mormons). As you might guess I live in Mormon country. They give preference in their church to the wealthy. Thus, if they start a new church building in an area they will coose as their leaders the wealthy young rather than the poor old for their leadership. I remember one story that in South America they (the LDS) were starting a new Stake (a division of their church organization). In that area were older men and women as well as children, parents, etc. However, rather than choosing one of the older men to be the stake president, they choose a college graduate of perhaps 24 years of age. Because, the college graduate represented greater success, wealth, etc. That is what these verses in James are calling to shame. That we should not base our decision of how we see one another upon wealth; a concept that is very hard to follow in any society. boraddict, No, it's showing partiality period! Or favoritism, bias, in any way shape or form to or against any man. Look what the OT says about partiality in general: Exodus 23:3 You shall not show partiality to a poor man in his dispute. <---- Poor man... you can't even be partial to the poor! Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Job 13:10 He will surely rebuke you If you secretly show partiality. Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray, show partiality to anyone; Nor let me flatter any man.
James 2 is about showing partiality after being believers in Jesus. You have been granted liberty through Christ. Thus the law of liberty of "you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Royal Law) James refers to Jesus' quote both the royal law and law of liberty as that is what Christ provides by faith in Him. Paul refers to the same thing in Romans 3 as the Law of Faith. In both cases, were are given Liberty by our Faith in Christ. The idea is to treat everyone equally. James argues that when you violate this liberty, you sin, and not only did you sin, you sinned against all of the law because the royal law encompasses ALL of the Law. And when you sin against one law, you are guilty of ALL of the law. Here, let's look at different translations of James 2.. I'll use the AMP version first because I like how they show other definitions of how the original Greek or Hebrew could be translated [their emphasis in brackets]: www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=AMPThe Sin of Partiality [AMP version] James 2 1 My fellow believers, do not practice your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of partiality [toward people—show no favoritism, no prejudice, no snobbery]. 2 For if a man comes into your meeting place wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in dirty clothes also comes in, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who wears the fine clothes, and say to him, “ You sit here in this good seat,” and you tell the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down [on the floor] by my footstool,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves, and become judges with wrong motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: has not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and [as believers to be] heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you [in contrast] have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress and exploit you, and personally drag you into the courts of law? 7 Do they not blaspheme the precious name [of Christ] by which you are called? 8 If, however, you are [really] fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself [that is, if you have an unselfish concern for others and do things for their benefit]” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality [prejudice, favoritism], you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as offenders. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law but stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of [breaking] all of it. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you murder, you have become guilty of transgressing the [entire] Law. 12 Speak and act [consistently] as people who are going to be judged by the law of liberty [that moral law that frees obedient Christians from the bondage of sin]. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; but [to the one who has shown mercy] mercy triumphs [victoriously] over judgment. See, it's about partiality in general is a sin. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 26, 2018 21:04:11 GMT -6
This is a tough one KJ & BORA, but maybe hearing from someone you know would be able to shine some light on this. I accepted Christ in 1994 as my savior but turned from Him around 2005 or so. The rejection was more to that of a "following" His ways rather than saying "you are not the Savior of the world", however over the course of several years the rejection was complete. I rejected everything that has to do with Christ and His kingdom and led my life the way I wanted to. I became my own god, on the throne of my heart, which is truly anti-Christ. I am not proud of the things I've done. After having been enlightened, told many of my conversion, I ran back to my own ways after years of diligently studying. There have been many who have followed a similar path. But then God who is rich in mercy "slapped me in the head" with something called the Great Sign. He made Rev 12:1-2 as real as the screen I watched the video on! Although from my perspective I thought I had lost my salvation, I am certain God didnt see it that way! As I watched and heard more about this once in a lifetime sign from heaven I thought "if He can forgive the Israelites for their unbelief, He can forgive me too". I have no other thing to offer on this than I believe that teaching is erroneous. The unpardonable sin was attributing works of the Holy Spirit (through Jesus) to the power of Satan. As KJ says above, we don't lose Gods grace from our lives. We may put the free gift in a closet or somewhere out of sight but its non-fundable. Once He gives it He wont take it back If my rejection of Him was unpardonable, then my faith in Him is in vain. Anything I have done for Him over the last few years is then an effort of my own flesh which would be counter to Him working through me. (I am not boasting in anything as I have done very little to further the kingdom.) But how else can I explain the love and faith I have for Him who first loved me and continued to do so even though I walked away from Him? mike feel free to elaborate more on your story ........
Yes, I am a firm believer in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) and I will defended it every where I see it challenged -- because over and over again when it is challenged it all boils down to someone doing something or someone not doing something..... THAT IS JUST IT FOLKS -- there is NOTHING you can do to earn salvation -- just like there is nothing you can do to LOSE IT....
HOWEVER; (and Mike you may be able to speak more to this) -- YOU (or someone) can WALK AWAY from God -- for a season -- what it means is you lose fellowship with God and you grieve the Holy Spirit (since He resides within you) ... when that happens -- you have not lost your salvation -- you have lost your fellowship.
At which point (and please note this is my phrase -- you may have another) -- God slaps you upside the head with a two-by-four and says hey get back here -- you-silly-willy I am waiting to greet you with wide-open arms!
If you want a verse for my two-by-four theory --- simply look at Luke 15:11-32 -- where the youngest son takes off on his own and survives on his own -- until he starts eating PIG Scraps for his supper -- and he finally remembers his dad's servant ate better than that ....and starts his return.......
AND IF YOU CAN LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE SONG without shedding a tear .......... then I feel sorry for you...........
I am a firm believer that Paul teaches OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) when you believe in what Christ did on the cross and is 100% correct during the Church age before the Rapture. I am also a firm believer that the rest of the Bible teaches that Faith in Christ, in who He is, isn't enough as even demons believe who Christ is... but that works are needed after repentance as we see in Hebrews 6. God will act Justly and not forget your works and labor of love. But you lost your one and only chance of repentance if you fall back from your Faith in who Christ is. So both are 100% correct! Faith + Works & Faith Alone Hebrews supplements James with Faith (in who Christ is) + Works (that you personally need to do for justification), because you have no more repentance. & Paul overrides the other two with Grace as what justifies the ungodly defining works as debt and not Grace. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 26, 2018 21:10:35 GMT -6
James is showing that if they love their neighbors they are doing well, but that no one can keep the law because you break one law then you break the whole law. So, instead, they are to live as those who are under the law of liberty which is what they are. They do not have to worry about breaking the law because they are no longer under it. They are under grace. Yes, partiality is a sin, but under the law of liberty they are forgiven. So, strive to love your neighbor knowing that even if you fail there is grace and mercy.
Then you show your faith through your works. Your faith is shown through the love you give to your neighbor. And who is your neighbor? Every other human you come in contact with. Do they need a smile? Do they need a hug? Do they need a warm coat? Do they need some food? Do they need help getting their car started?
A Christian who is not showing their faith through their works has a faith that is dead. They aren't growing in maturity. They aren't allowing the Holy Spirit to change them into the likeness of Christ. They are stagnant...like a dead person...going nowhere.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 26, 2018 21:25:53 GMT -6
James is showing that if they love their neighbors they are doing well, but that no one can keep the law because you break one law then you break the whole law. So, instead, they are to live as those who are under the law of liberty which is what they are. They do not have to worry about breaking the law because they are no longer under it. They are under grace. Yes, partiality is a sin, but under the law of liberty they are forgiven. So, strive to love your neighbor knowing that even if you fail there is grace and mercy. Then you show your faith through your works. Your faith is shown through the love you give to your neighbor. And who is your neighbor? Every other human you come in contact with. Do they need a smile? Do they need a hug? Do they need a warm coat? Do they need some food? Do they need help getting their car started? A Christian who is not showing their faith through their works has a faith that is dead. They aren't growing in maturity. They aren't allowing the Holy Spirit to change them into the likeness of Christ. They are stagnant...like a dead person...going nowhere. Romans 4. Works is debt, not Grace. Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 26, 2018 21:42:34 GMT -6
I am also a firm believer that the rest of the Bible teaches that Faith in Christ, in who He, is isn't enough as even demons believe who Christ is... but that works are needed after repentance as we see in Hebrews 6. God will act Justly and not forget your works and labor of love. But you lost your one and only chance of repentance if you fall back from your Faith in who Christ is. This is not a passage on faith plus works for salvation. Our works are things that belong to salvation (6:9) Meaning that once we are saved we will do good works. We don't do the works to get saved. And the writer of Hebrews is encouraging them to keep doing those works. "so that you may not be sluggish." Don't sit back and not do anything with the salvation you have been given. There is not two Gospels. It is always just faith alone. There is no need for works in our salvation. Then we would have a reason to boast. Christ is always and only enough. Demons know who He is. They believe He is the Son of God because they know this to be true. But they do not believe in Him for their salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. There is nothing that we can or have to do to add to our salvation. We believe and are sealed. And then He equips us for the good works that are set before us. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 26, 2018 21:50:33 GMT -6
I am also a firm believer that the rest of the Bible teaches that Faith in Christ, in who He, is isn't enough as even demons believe who Christ is... but that works are needed after repentance as we see in Hebrews 6. God will act Justly and not forget your works and labor of love. But you lost your one and only chance of repentance if you fall back from your Faith in who Christ is. This is not a passage on faith plus works for salvation. Our works are things that belong to salvation (6:9) Meaning that once we are saved we will do good works. We don't do the works to get saved. And the writer of Hebrews is encouraging them to keep doing those works. "so that you may not be sluggish." Don't sit back and not do anything with the salvation you have been given. There is not two Gospels. It is always just faith alone. There is no need for works in our salvation. Then we would have a reason to boast. Christ is always and only enough. Demons know who He is. They believe He is the Son of God because they know this to be true. But they do not believe in Him for their salvation. Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. There is nothing that we can or have to do to add to our salvation. We believe and are sealed. And then He equips us for the good works that are set before us. I 210% disagree with this statement on Hebrews 6 "This is not a passage on faith plus works for salvation." Would you like me to prove it? And quoting Paul with Ephesians, grace through faith alone, sealed forever with the Holy Spirit, is not found in Hebrews or James, you can absolutely lose your justification if you sin after becoming a believer in Christ, and Hebrews shows that you only had 1 time to repent, otherwise, sinning after having Faith puts God to shame. Paul also contradicts James on how Abraham attained justification. Paul argues that Abraham attained Justification before his circumcision by Faith alone, where James argues that Abraham attained Justification by his attempted sacrifice of his son at the alter. |
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Post by Natalie on Dec 26, 2018 21:59:43 GMT -6
I am walking away from this thread.
You said that faith in Christ, in who He is, is not enough for salvation. That's wrong. Faith in Him is all we need because of who He is. I can do nothing to get myself saved or keep myself saved. It is all Him.
And I use Ephesians with James and Hebrews because Scripture interprets Scripture. We have to take the whole of it and not dice it up how we want.
I'm done.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 26, 2018 22:13:48 GMT -6
I am walking away from this thread. You said that faith in Christ, in who He is, is not enough for salvation. That's wrong. Faith in Him is all we need because of who He is. I can do nothing to get myself saved or keep myself saved. It is all Him. And I use Ephesians with James and Hebrews because Scripture interprets Scripture. We have to take the whole of it and not dice it up how we want. I'm done. This is Paul: Romans 4:24 "... It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him [God the Father] who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." <---- This is what God did. This is Hebrews: You need to read Hebrews 6. Not only can you lose your salvation, you were only given 1 chance to repent because you can't hang Christ on the cross again. Falling away after having Faith in Christ means you shamed God. And now God will only justify you by your own works from that point on. That's not Grace preached by Paul in Romans 4, works is debt according to Paul, works is not Grace through Faith. Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. ... 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Now Back to Paul:
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Now James
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
These are 100% not the same. James flat out tells you his own works justified him. But Paul claimed his works are not grace but debt! |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 26, 2018 23:47:29 GMT -6
Hi USVG, I am not familiar with the AMP version. I like the King James because it is 1611 AD if my memory serves me correctly; and closer to the original source. If I could read German then I would go to that source because it is further back than the King James. I think some of the metaphors are lost in the newer versions because they are written to conform to the modern language. For instance what does Rev. 1:2 say in the AMP. The reason I ask is that any change to that verse would alter the message to wit:
King James Version Rev. 1:2
1) "Who bare record of the word of God
2) and of the testimony of Jesus Christ
3) and of all things that he saw."
AMP Rev. 1:2 (on line)
1) Who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God
2) and to the testimony of Jesus Christ
3) even to everything that he saw [in his visions].
As you can see there is a difference between the two versions. The King James identifies John who bare record of the Word of God (John 1:1-14), and of the testimony of Jesus (John 21:21-25), and everything that he saw (John 1:15-21:20) that is between his record of the Word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Thus, Rev. 1:2 is telling us that the John of Rev. 1:1 is he who wrote the Gospel According to John. Whereas, the AMP gives Rev. 1:2 as the John who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God. Like, the AMP writers did not realize that the word of God is the Word of God from the Gospel of John. They did get the testimony of Jesus correctly and that is good. However, the ending of the verse that references the body of John's gospel is in error because the AMP provides a clarification that it is everything he saw in his visions. That is, the writers of the AMP thought John was speaking to the visions of the Book of Revelation when he was in fact speaking of his Gospel work wherein he describes what he saw.
So you can see that the AMP is substandard with respect to Rev. 1:2. It is for that reason that I do not deviate from the King James Version. Yes I do know that there are errors in the King James; however, it is my opinion that there are more errors in the versions written since 1611. Even the NIV that I hold in high regard has its share of errors and perhaps fewer than the King James, but it looses some metaphors as well as the chiasmi that are easy to see in the King James.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 0:31:20 GMT -6
USCG... I would like to throw something out for your (and others') consideration, at the risk of possibly throwing a wrench in the works. I have reviewed James 2 and Romans 3 per your above quote, and would like to make the suggestion that said explanation may allow for the entire apparent disagreement between the two passages to be set aside, because there really is no discrepancy between the two passages. WHy? because the two passages are talking about two different things. My suggestions and explanations are this: The works referred to in James and Romans are two different works, because James 2 talks about works which are the result of faith. They are justifying works - they PROVE the faith exists. These works have nothing whatsoever to do with the law. In fact, James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law? Romans 3 explains that the law was given so that we might become conscious of our sin; but that no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law. Therefore, works of the law cannot produce faith, or righteousness, or (ultimately) salvation; so righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ; as is justification (He is the Justifier). So basically, if the above is accurate, James 2 refers to works as a result of faith, and Romans 3 refers to the works of the law (that is, following the law) as an attempt to be justified. To me, there is no discrepancy between these two passages, because they are talking about two different topics! FWIW, Paul (A jew!) despite being an apostle to the gentiles, clearly states in Rom 3:19 that: It makes sense that the jews referred to in this passage, who had converted at the time, prior to Paul"s ministry (and after); were justified by the same faith that the gentiles who came after were! Thus, there cannot be a different set of rules! From this, it should be okay to draw the conclusion that even though the target audience is different for any given epistle; and although the messages approach subjects different ways, the end result MUST BE the same: Justification to the jew AND the gentile, the SAME WAY though the SAME FAITH.Thanks for listening. This is my second reply to your post as a continuation of my first reply to you. James 2 + Hebrews 6 (sinning by being partial against someone while also having faith in Jesus Christ + not being allowed to repent after falling away from Christ Hebrews 6) gets slam dunked in the face by Romans 4:1-8. Works is considered debt and thus nullifies Grace. Please read my colorful post up above. Thank you for pointing me to your 'colorful' post. I have read it (and Hebrews 6); and would like to pose some additional questions and comments which may alter how the Hebrews 6 /James 2 combo is perceived. If the perception of these two passages is altered, then I believe they may be reconciled with Paul's Romans 3 passage. I believe the gist of James 2 (specifically, and as I have stated before) is that faith is evidenced by deeds. Faith is made complete by deeds (v22). The consideration of being righteous is what deeds give the person of faith (v24). Paul, on the other hand, in Romans 3 (as previously mentioned) compares and contrasts the works-based ceremonial law with faith-derived righteousness (v22); and (paraphrasing) that both jew and gentile are justified the same way, through the same kind of faith (v30). So, I have read through Hebrews 6, and read through your post as well, and I have a few questions, because it looks like there are a number of assumptions and conclusions drawn, which (quite frankly) I do not agree with based upon the above, but maybe we are just talking semantics here? So, please allow me to ask a few pertinent questions: 1. What is 'repentance'; and should we be making a distinction between a. Repentance ('unto salvation', as it were), that is a 'changing of one's mind - about what topic? My suggestion, is that it is a changing of one's mind regarding Jesus Christ, and his role, and ours as well! Specifically, a changing of one's mind from such things as "i don't need to be saved"; and the like, to "I need Jesus to Save Me, and I believe he is the Lord. I no longer believe I do not need him" (or similar, et c. without being formulaic about it). In my mind this is ' Repentance unto Salvation'. With a big R. b. repentance, on the other hand, with the little r, is the repentance that we often think of when we realize as believers that we screwed up; and we go to Jesus and say we are sorry, and that we do not want to do that again, please help me. If we take Hebrews in light of Repentance, and consider that repentance is not the subject of the passage, maybe we can draw some conclusions, and poke some holes in some hypotheses: 1. v1 - Does this verse clearly indicate that the subsequent part of the passage refers to Repentance unto Salvation? 2. v4 - This verse, et sequitur, appears to be the key verse that makes one wonder whether one's salvation can be 'lost'. What if I were to suggest that one cannot lose one's salvation, but one CAN throw it away? It is impossible for those a. ...who have once been enlightened... b. ...who have tasted the heavenly gift... c. ...who have shared in the Holy Spirit... d. ...who have tasted the goodness of the word of God... e. ...and the powers of the coming age... - and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. What is the definition of 'fallen away'? How about someone who has experienced a-e above, and decides unilaterally, intentionally, and permanently to walk away from Jesus? Would this fit the definition? And who among men can see the future event of that person's decision being permanent? Only God can, right? The determination of 'fallen away' status doesn't occur until that person has died, right, or (I am presuming here) that they might not even be harpazo'd! - (confirmed in v8?) But each person knows in their heart whether or not they have 'permanently' walked away from their faith, don't they? And So does God! But do you know my heart? or do I know mike 's or does anyone know anyone else's? Only by their works (fruits - Mt 7:20), right? 3. v9 - The writer of Hebrews gives the audience of his letter reassurance, that although they may have 'dropped the ball' now and then, they are not the individuals he previously referred to! 4. v13 - The writer then reaffirms his reassurance by example and explanation: What are the two unchangeable things? 1. God's Promise to Abraham (remember that Hebrews was written to the Jews - doesn't mean we cant get something from it though) - referring to the descendants, not just of the nation-state of Israel, but ultimately, the citizens of the New Jerusalem - post Tribulation (Rev 6:9, 7, 19:1, & 20:4, et c) 2. "...the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised..." (v17) - WOuldnt this be the believers? Even the 'Jewish' believers of the time? What do you think? Repentance --->>salvation --->>faith --->>works --->>righteousness -->>sanctification --->>>glorification James talks about Living Faith (James 2) Repentance --->>salvation --->>faith ------------------>>righteousness -->>sanctification --->>>glorification Paul talks about dead faith still becoming glorified (Rom 4) One can't get less or more faith by doing less or more works, but one can certainly get less or more righteousness, right? |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 0:56:49 GMT -6
I am walking away from this thread. You said that faith in Christ, in who He is, is not enough for salvation. That's wrong. Faith in Him is all we need because of who He is. I can do nothing to get myself saved or keep myself saved. It is all Him. And I use Ephesians with James and Hebrews because Scripture interprets Scripture. We have to take the whole of it and not dice it up how we want. I'm done. This is Paul: Romans 4:24 "... It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him [God the Father] who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification." <---- This is what God did. This is Hebrews: You need to read Hebrews 6. Not only can you lose your salvation, you were only given 1 chance to repent because you can't hang Christ on the cross again. Falling away after having Faith in Christ means you shamed God. And now God will only justify you by your own works from that point on. That's not Grace preached by Paul in Romans 4, works is debt according to Paul, works is not Grace through Faith. Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. ... 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. Now Back to Paul:
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Now James
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
These are 100% not the same. James flat out tells you his own works justified him. But Paul claimed his works are not grace but debt!Um, USCG... When you go and perform work for someone, and they do not pay you immediately, who incurs the debt? You? or the person you worked for? Do you think God owes anyone anything, but what he has promised and not yet delivered on? Can you get more salvation by doing more works? |
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Post by fitz on Dec 27, 2018 5:03:33 GMT -6
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