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Post by uscgvet on Dec 24, 2018 21:43:43 GMT -6
Paul was talking to Timothy... Right?
"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,"
So what did Timothy learn and been assured of, and who was it he learned these things from?
And with me personally, I grew up in a Faith+Works doctrine... I ain't going back to that!
"and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures,"
I didn't know the Holy Scriptures from my childhood. I only just started studying them deeply.
But it looks like Timothy did...
"which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
Standard Paul there.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
No disagreements there!
Letters sent to the Jews are inspired by God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, etc...
Just like the letters sent to the Gentiles are inspired by God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, etc..
I don't understand, am I missing something?
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Post by boraddict on Dec 25, 2018 1:14:12 GMT -6
Paul was talking to Timothy... Right? "But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them," So what did Timothy learn and been assured of, and who was it he learned these things from? And with me personally, I grew up in a Faith+Works doctrine... I ain't going back to that! "and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures," I didn't know the Holy Scriptures from my childhood. I only just started studying them deeply. But it looks like Timothy did... "which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." Standard Paul there. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. No disagreements there! Letters sent to the Jews are inspired by God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, etc... Just like the letters sent to the Gentiles are inspired by God, profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, etc.. I don't understand, am I missing something? USCG, you have a good grasp on scripture so how do you figure that you are missing something? The man of God may be Jew or Gentile; nevertheless, scripture is profitable to said end. I suppose if scripture was not profitable then something is amiss. However, scripture works well in our lives, so all is well. I have often said (to friends) that there is too much scripture. Why don't we dismiss everything except the BoR.  Now that would be fun. I guess we could keep Isaiah and perhaps Daniel; and we must keep the four gospels and Acts. But we must stop somewhere. Now that is funny. I guess we could begin by eliminating those books that are never read like Ezekiel. No I would never eliminate Ezekiel because I do like Chapter 1. Following are 2 Tim. 3:14-17, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."1) "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned" = continue in the prophecies that you have learned "and hast been assured of" = having developed faith "knowing of whom thou hast learned them" = knowing of whom you have learned them 2) "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures" = and from a child you have known the holy scriptures "which are able to make thee wise unto salvation" = which give you knowledge of salvation "through faith which is in Christ Jesus" = through faith in Christ Jesus 3) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" = all scripture is given by prophecy "and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" = and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness "That the man of God may be perfect" = that you and those like you may be perfect "throughly furnished unto all good works." = thoroughly furnished to do good works. Thus, 2 Tim. 3:14-17 reads: 1) Continue in the prophecies that you have learned having developed faith and knowing of whom you have learned them 2) And from a child you have known the holy scriptures which give you knowledge of salvation through faith in Christ Jesus 3) All scripture is given by prophecy and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness that you and those like you may be perfect thoroughly furnished to do good works. Notice that the chiasmus of the verses emphasize: 1) prophecies learned and faith developed concerning Christ 2) holy scriptures give knowledge of salvation through Christ Jesus 3) prophecy is profitable to perfection through Christ |
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Post by cwood85 on Dec 25, 2018 10:13:53 GMT -6
boraddict“ I have often said (to friends) that there is too much scripture. Why don't we dismiss everything except the BoR. Now that would be fun. I guess we could keep Isaiah and perhaps Daniel; and we must keep the four gospels and Acts. But we must stop somewhere. Now that is funny. I guess we could begin by eliminating those books that are never read like Ezekiel.” _________________________________________ First-Merry Christmas everyone! I am traveling a little today and have some time to catch up a little on this thread. Will not be responding in depth however for possibly a few more days. Second-Pretty sure the above mindset is how cults are formed.... pick what is favorable and throw out the rest. Many books may not particularly always point to prophecy (however most times I am pleasantly surprised when I do read something in an unexpected area of scripture) but more importantly it points to Jesus. Like pretty much all of it and was inspired and written for and to glorify HIM more than anybody. He is everywhere in the Bible, even in very unexpected areas. That is like trying to build a house without a frame when we are ok with throwing out or deeming large portions of the Bible as not important.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 12:03:37 GMT -6
The counter to that argument is saying some here are ignoring verses where Jesus is sending the apostles to the tribes of Israel and not the Gentiles, or when James writes to the tribes of Israel.
Throwing out/ignoring is happening in both cases... I'll humble myself admit it is happening on my end and absolutely agree it feels wrong and it shouldn't happen!
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 12:09:04 GMT -6
With James 2, Hebrews, etc... I'm constantly apologizing, constantly worrying, depressed, shamed, minute after minute, for constantly sinning against the law a liberty, even after believing in Christ!
I know I am partial with my wife verses Christ, or my child versus other people's children, or my brother with my neighbor, or myself with God! Constantly violating the law of liberty which means you are GUILTY of ALL sin.
No hope. No feeling of security. Always wrong against God. Always.
But with Paul's letters, I'm forgiven by His grace through faith, all sin is nailed to the cross...
Grace = Hope, peace, security.
Which is it? without making assumptions... No guesses!
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Post by boraddict on Dec 25, 2018 13:20:12 GMT -6
With James 2, Hebrews, etc... I'm constantly apologizing, constantly worrying, depressed, shamed, minute after minute, for constantly sinning against the law a liberty, even after believing in Christ! I know I am partial with my wife verses Christ, or my child versus other people's children, or my brother with my neighbor, or myself with God! Constantly violating the law of liberty which means you are GUILTY of ALL sin. No hope. No feeling of security. Always wrong against God. Always. But with Paul's letters, I'm forgiven by His grace through faith, all sin is nailed to the cross... Grace = Hope, peace, security. Which is it? without making assumptions... No guesses! USCG, I do not understand the problem. Are you saying that someone should feel guilty for being rich? There is nothing wrong with being rich unless the poor are despised. For it is the rich who bless the poor with jobs to support their families. Thus, the rich should not despise the poor, and likewise, the poor should not despise the rich. Survival is dependent upon the wealthy with which they have been given wealth. For without them where would we be but beggars in a desert. No. God has blessed some with wealth to administer providence to all. It is nothing more than a carpenter blessing us with his skills, or a doctor blessing us with is brilliance of intellect. Some have the ability to bless us with their ability to lead in business matters and provide jobs. So I do not understand the contrast you see between James/Hebrews and Paul's letters; they all have their place. If there is not enmity against the poor then there should be no guilt for being rich. Use that blessing to bless others. Likewise, use the love with which you love your wife to love Christ, the compassion for your children to be compassionate to other's children, your brother with neighbor and you with God. There is not a problem but peace if there is no enmity in the heart. Where is the problem? |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 19:54:24 GMT -6
With James 2, Hebrews, etc... I'm constantly apologizing, constantly worrying, depressed, shamed, minute after minute, for constantly sinning against the law a liberty, even after believing in Christ! I know I am partial with my wife verses Christ, or my child versus other people's children, or my brother with my neighbor, or myself with God! Constantly violating the law of liberty which means you are GUILTY of ALL sin. No hope. No feeling of security. Always wrong against God. Always. But with Paul's letters, I'm forgiven by His grace through faith, all sin is nailed to the cross... Grace = Hope, peace, security. Which is it? without making assumptions... No guesses! USCG, I do not understand the problem. Are you saying that someone should feel guilty for being rich? There is nothing wrong with being rich unless the poor are despised. For it is the rich who bless the poor with jobs to support their families. Thus, the rich should not despise the poor, and likewise, the poor should not despise the rich. Survival is dependent upon the wealthy with which they have been given wealth. For without them where would we be but beggars in a desert. No. God has blessed some with wealth to administer providence to all. It is nothing more than a carpenter blessing us with his skills, or a doctor blessing us with is brilliance of intellect. Some have the ability to bless us with their ability to lead in business matters and provide jobs. So I do not understand the contrast you see between James/Hebrews and Paul's letters; they all have their place. If there is not enmity against the poor then there should be no guilt for being rich. Use that blessing to bless others. Likewise, use the love with which you love your wife to love Christ, the compassion for your children to be compassionate to other's children, your brother with neighbor and you with God. There is not a problem but peace if there is no enmity in the heart. Where is the problem? James 2 analysis: Audience: brothers, fellow believers in Christ James 2:1 "My brethren, ... of our Lord Jesus Christ " Command: do not show partiality while believing in our Lord James 2:1 "... do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ ... with partiality." Why Not?: God does not show partiality, neither should we while we are in the faith of Christ! Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe. Job 13:10 He will surely rebuke you If you secretly show partiality. Job 32:21 Let me not, I pray, show partiality to anyone; Nor let me flatter any man. Subject of who the Command was directed to: "My brethren, of the faith " ... "of our Lord Jesus Christ " Example of showing partiality: James 2:2-7 (the example of showing partiality between a rich man and poor man as to who gets the best seat in the house ) This is just one example, there are others throughout the Bible, like taking bribes or showing partiality with the wicked or against the righteous during judgement, or giving a rich man a better seat than to a poor man. Definition of partiality: the quality or state of being partial : BIAS : showing favoritism End result of showing partiality: You are convicted of committing sin after already being a believer in Jesus Christ and have now become guilty of all sin! James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. Who here is not guilty of showing any partiality while being believers in Christ?I'm guilty! Every single day. I show bias in one way or another even without thinking about it. Where is Grace in James? GUILTY! What happened to Grace thru faith? Gone. No more eternal security! Bye Bye! And it get's worse with Hebrews! Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible ... (What's impossible ?) ... for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, <---- *** This is you! *** Hebrews 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, <---- *** This is also you! *** Hebrews 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance," <--- For it is impossible ... to renew them (you) again to repentance... if they (you) fall away (i.e. no more apologies accepted by God if you fall away )
Why is it impossible for fallen away believers to be renewed into repentance?
Hebrews 6:6 "...since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." <--- *** You shamed God, as a believer in Christ, that's why you don't get any more repentance! *** You were a believer in Christ, who fell away and put God to shame. No more repentance for you (Hebrews 6) ... all because you showed favoritism to some rich guy, over a poor guy, on who gets the better chair in the room (James 2)! But wait... There's more! Exodus 23:3 You shall not show partiality to a poor man in his dispute.EQUAL RIGHTS! You can't even be partial to poor people over rich people... My guess would be if you did, you would be sinning just the same as rich over poor and be guilty of all sin as James 2 states! Where is Grace in Hebrews? GUILTY! That's it. It's game over..... Bye Bye sinner! What eternal security... ? What repentance after falling away...? What hope...? According to James and Hebrews, once you believed in Christ and you sinned by favoritism, you became guilty of all sin, you struck out pal! You don't even get to repent again. But, to be fair, Hebrews 6:9-12 continues on and says God is not unjust and will not forget your work and labor of love...in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. ---- > But isn't that debt as defined by Paul? <-----
Sounds to me like you need to go out and do a WHOLE lot of work and labor of love to be found just by God.... because it's blatantly obvious you're not going to get any more repentance from the cross!!! Better go get to work! Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt." Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, Romans 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Romans 4:7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered; Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” So where is Grace in Hebrews? Being Just is NOT the same as Grace... I know for a FACT that I'm ungodly... !!! |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 25, 2018 22:34:45 GMT -6
@usgvet I have a question for you, not as moderator, so you kow, but as me, barbio sheep raiser girl, barely making an income in ranching, yet belive I am walking in Faith, daily.. What does the Holy Spirit say to you on the matter of rightly dividing the Truth of the WORD? Well, it's a verse in the Bible. That means it's important. As for those that attest to "Rightly Dividing" as a concept to understand the Word of God, I think some teachers are extreme in being dogmatic on the KJV Only. I only learned about rightly dividing a year or so ago, and hadn't put much thought into it. I agreed with what I saw. I didn't see anything scripturally wrong with it. I had already come to the conclusion that the Bible was structured properly by King James and "Right Dividers" follow along with it. The New Testament was rightly ordered the way it was as a book of epistles: All of the Gospels first (Faith + Works), then Acts (transition from faith+works to Faith Alone), followed by all of Paul's letters (Faith alone for the Church age), then the books dealing with Jewish believers outside of the Church Age meant for after the rapture (Faith + Works again [Hebrews thru Revelation]). I came to the same conclusions without even being a party to the RD group. I personally use the concept of "Right Division" by understanding the non-Pauline Books are meant for the Jews. They were literally written TO the Jews. Where Paul was writing TO the gentiles. Paul even flat out tells you he is the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul, James, Peter even state that Paul is to be sent to the Gentiles while "they" to the Jews. Only recently did it become a huge topic lately when I saw the article on UnSealed basically calling "Right Division" un-Godly. I was like Why? RD is just a tool to me. Others slammed "Right Dividers" as un-Christian. I couldn't believe what I was seeing in the comments of that article. This was all new to me. I came here to discuss why RD was being called un-Christian. It blew up in my face it seems in this discussion, but I've been holding on. LOL. :-D I fall into the concept that tools are for learning, we are only human. Right Division could be wrong, sure, but it's the ONLY thing I have found that deals with the paradox of (James 2 vs Paul's Romans 3) sinning against the law of liberty after you have become a believer in Christ. Being guilty with sinning against the law of liberty makes you guilty of ALL SIN! With Paul's "law of Faith" there is no more sin, it was nailed to the cross. This is a paradox in my humble opinion! You can't logically be in both cases at the same time. All other methods to deal with James and Paul make assumptions that I can't rely on, this includes the teachings of the late Dr. Chuck Missler of whom I have nothing but respect for. I can only rely on what I can read in the Bible and what the Holy Spirit shows me. No partiality! "Rightly Diving" argues that the Book of James was meant for Jewish believers after the Rapture, along with the other books that don't begin with the word "Paul". I see nothing wrong with that. The audiences were physically penned in each epistle. That's it. I feel like I've poured my heart out into this thread for the past few days. To me it's just a tool, but one that is very important. I've heavily argued my point throughout this discussion thread. I don't condemn "Right Division" other than being dogmatic on the KJV. If there are other problems with RD, tell me, and I'll tell you what I can as I am lead by the Holy Spirit. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. USCG... I would like to throw something out for your (and others') consideration, at the risk of possibly throwing a wrench in the works. I have reviewed James 2 and Romans 3 per your above quote, and would like to make the suggestion that said explanation may allow for the entire apparent disagreement between the two passages to be set aside, because there really is no discrepancy between the two passages. WHy? because the two passages are talking about two different things. My suggestions and explanations are this: The works referred to in James and Romans are two different works, because James 2 talks about works which are the result of faith. They are justifying works - they PROVE the faith exists. These works have nothing whatsoever to do with the law. In fact, James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law? Romans 3 explains that the law was given so that we might become conscious of our sin; but that no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law. Therefore, works of the law cannot produce faith, or righteousness, or (ultimately) salvation; so righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ; as is justification (He is the Justifier). So basically, if the above is accurate, James 2 refers to works as a result of faith, and Romans 3 refers to the works of the law (that is, following the law) as an attempt to be justified. To me, there is no discrepancy between these two passages, because they are talking about two different topics! FWIW, Paul (A jew!) despite being an apostle to the gentiles, clearly states in Rom 3:19 that: It makes sense that the jews referred to in this passage, who had converted at the time, prior to Paul"s ministry (and after); were justified by the same faith that the gentiles who came after were! Thus, there cannot be a different set of rules! From this, it should be okay to draw the conclusion that even though the target audience is different for any given epistle; and although the messages approach subjects different ways, the end result MUST BE the same: Justification to the jew AND the gentile, the SAME WAY though the SAME FAITH.Thanks for listening. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 22:49:23 GMT -6
Well, it's a verse in the Bible. That means it's important. As for those that attest to "Rightly Dividing" as a concept to understand the Word of God, I think some teachers are extreme in being dogmatic on the KJV Only. I only learned about rightly dividing a year or so ago, and hadn't put much thought into it. I agreed with what I saw. I didn't see anything scripturally wrong with it. I had already come to the conclusion that the Bible was structured properly by King James and "Right Dividers" follow along with it. The New Testament was rightly ordered the way it was as a book of epistles: All of the Gospels first (Faith + Works), then Acts (transition from faith+works to Faith Alone), followed by all of Paul's letters (Faith alone for the Church age), then the books dealing with Jewish believers outside of the Church Age meant for after the rapture (Faith + Works again [Hebrews thru Revelation]). I came to the same conclusions without even being a party to the RD group. I personally use the concept of "Right Division" by understanding the non-Pauline Books are meant for the Jews. They were literally written TO the Jews. Where Paul was writing TO the gentiles. Paul even flat out tells you he is the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul, James, Peter even state that Paul is to be sent to the Gentiles while "they" to the Jews. Only recently did it become a huge topic lately when I saw the article on UnSealed basically calling "Right Division" un-Godly. I was like Why? RD is just a tool to me. Others slammed "Right Dividers" as un-Christian. I couldn't believe what I was seeing in the comments of that article. This was all new to me. I came here to discuss why RD was being called un-Christian. It blew up in my face it seems in this discussion, but I've been holding on. LOL. :-D I fall into the concept that tools are for learning, we are only human. Right Division could be wrong, sure, but it's the ONLY thing I have found that deals with the paradox of (James 2 vs Paul's Romans 3) sinning against the law of liberty after you have become a believer in Christ. Being guilty with sinning against the law of liberty makes you guilty of ALL SIN! With Paul's "law of Faith" there is no more sin, it was nailed to the cross. This is a paradox in my humble opinion! You can't logically be in both cases at the same time. All other methods to deal with James and Paul make assumptions that I can't rely on, this includes the teachings of the late Dr. Chuck Missler of whom I have nothing but respect for. I can only rely on what I can read in the Bible and what the Holy Spirit shows me. No partiality! "Rightly Diving" argues that the Book of James was meant for Jewish believers after the Rapture, along with the other books that don't begin with the word "Paul". I see nothing wrong with that. The audiences were physically penned in each epistle. That's it. I feel like I've poured my heart out into this thread for the past few days. To me it's just a tool, but one that is very important. I've heavily argued my point throughout this discussion thread. I don't condemn "Right Division" other than being dogmatic on the KJV. If there are other problems with RD, tell me, and I'll tell you what I can as I am lead by the Holy Spirit. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. USCG... I would like to throw something out for your (and others') consideration, at the risk of possibly throwing a wrench in the works. I have reviewed James 2 and Romans 3 per your above quote, and would like to make the suggestion that said explanation may allow for the entire apparent disagreement between the two passages to be set aside, because there really is no discrepancy between the two passages. WHy? because the two passages are talking about two different things. My suggestions and explanations are this: The works referred to in James and Romans are two different works, because James 2 talks about works which are the result of faith. They are justifying works - they PROVE the faith exists. These works have nothing whatsoever to do with the law. In fact, James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law? Romans 3 explains that the law was given so that we might become conscious of our sin; but that no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law. Therefore, works of the law cannot produce faith, or righteousness, or (ultimately) salvation; so righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ; as is justification (He is the Justifier). So basically, if the above is accurate, James 2 refers to works as a result of faith, and Romans 3 refers to the works of the law (that is, following the law) as an attempt to be justified. To me, there is no discrepancy between these two passages, because they are talking about two different topics! FWIW, Paul (A jew!) despite being an apostle to the gentiles, clearly states in Rom 3:19 that: It makes sense that the jews referred to in this passage, who had converted at the time, prior to Paul"s ministry (and after); were justified by the same faith that the gentiles who came after were! Thus, there cannot be a different set of rules! From this, it should be okay to draw the conclusion that even though the target audience is different for any given epistle; and although the messages approach subjects different ways, the end result MUST BE the same: Justification to the jew AND the gentile, the SAME WAY though the SAME FAITH.Thanks for listening. "James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law?" James 2 does mention the law... James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:11 For He who said, “ Do not commit adultery,” also said, “ Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. Two of those are quoted directly from the law of Moses... LOL I'm still chewing on the rest of your post. Please read my new post above your post. |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 25, 2018 22:56:10 GMT -6
James Chapter 2 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
That is, do not base your faith in the Savior upon people.2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
This verse refers back to Verse 2:1 that if you base your faith upon a person then ye commit sin.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Thus, if you base your faith upon a person then you are guilty of the law as referenced in Verse 2:8 that comands to "love thy neighbor as thyself." That is, if you base your faith upon a person then you are guilty of breaking that part of the royal law and thereby guilty of breaking the entire law. This is easy to envision if we consider a mathematical formula like y=mx+b. If we change one part then the whole formula is broken.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
So speak and do freely as they that shall be judged by Christ. That is, have confidence in Christ and do not give in to the respect of people in favor of your faith. Stan up for your faith and speak and do freely as they that will be judged. 13 For he (Christ) shall have judgment without mercy, (upon those) that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against (has victory over) judgment. That is, the wicked who want your respect over your faith will be judged without mercy; however, you have mercy in Christ over that judgment. So speak and do with confidence in Christ. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? No. Faith without works is dead. Thus, speak and do boldly as they that shall be judged by Christ as referenced in Verse 2:12. The works you should do: 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Help those in need.17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by worksDvidence of a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot (having faith) justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.USCG, James Chapter 2 is above and has an emphasis upon the following:
1) Staying true to Christ and speaking/doing boldly
2) If you are not true to Christ but another then you guilty of the breaking the commandments
3) Evidence of being true to Christ are your works
Thus, the chapter is encouraging the followers of Christ to not be swayed by the wealth of this world but to speak and do boldly providing evidence of their faith. That is, they are not to hide in fear and shame but stand up against the pressures of this world for Christ. After all, they are his army against the army of Satan.
USCG, I do not see as you have described in this chapter. The sin referenced pertains to supporting others before Christ. That is, the devils against Christ are not to be respected, and if they are then we are guilty of breaking the commandments. That is all, nothing more. So if a person places a preacher or in the case of the Mormons a false prophet before Christ then they are guilty of breaking the commandments. This is correct and I do not see the problem unless your are Mormon. Now that is funny. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 23:06:46 GMT -6
James Chapter 2 1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
That is, do not base your faith in the Savior upon people.2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
This verse refers back to Verse 2:1 that if you base your faith upon a person then ye commit sin.10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Thus, if you base your faith upon a person then you are guilty of the law as referenced in Verse 2:8 that comands to "love thy neighbor as thyself." That is, if you base your faith upon a person then you are guilty of breaking that part of the royal law and thereby guilty of breaking the entire law. This is easy to envision if we consider a mathematical formula like y=mx+b. If we change one part then the whole formula is broken.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
So speak and do freely as they that shall be judged by Christ. That is, have confidence in Christ and do not give in to the respect of people in favor of your faith. Stan up for your faith and speak and do freely as they that will be judged. 13 For he (Christ) shall have judgment without mercy, (upon those) that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against (has victory over) judgment. That is, the wicked who want your respect over your faith will be judged without mercy; however, you have mercy in Christ over that judgment. So speak and do with confidence in Christ. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? No. Faith without works is dead. Thus, speak and do boldly as they that shall be judged by Christ as referenced in Verse 2:12. The works you should do: 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Help those in need.17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by worksDvidence of a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot (having faith) justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.USCG, James Chapter 2 is above and has an emphasis upon the following:
1) Staying true to Christ and speaking/doing boldly
2) If you are not true to Christ but another then you guilty of the breaking the commandments
3) Evidence of being true to Christ are your works
Thus, the chapter is encouraging the followers of Christ to not be swayed by the wealth of this world but to speak and do boldly providing evidence of their faith. That is, they are not to hide in fear and shame but stand up against the pressures of this world for Christ. After all, they are his army against the army of Satan.
USCG, I do not see as you have described in this chapter. The sin referenced pertains to supporting others before Christ. That is, the devils against Christ are not to be respected, and if they are then we are guilty of breaking the commandments. That is all, nothing more. So if a person places a preacher or in the case of the Mormons a false prophet before Christ then they are guilty of breaking the commandments. This is correct and I do not see the problem unless your are Mormon. Now that is funny.1. I think you completely misunderstood James 2. James 2 is about showing favoritism with others. Try reading the New King James Version, or the Amplified Bible ( love this version ) www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=AMPIt will cast a whole new light on James 2. We are not allowed to show favoritism. Doing so is sin. Please see my colorful reply post to you up above ( you may need to refresh the page to see my edits ). I heavily edited it before you saved this post. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 25, 2018 23:19:42 GMT -6
Well, it's a verse in the Bible. That means it's important. As for those that attest to "Rightly Dividing" as a concept to understand the Word of God, I think some teachers are extreme in being dogmatic on the KJV Only. I only learned about rightly dividing a year or so ago, and hadn't put much thought into it. I agreed with what I saw. I didn't see anything scripturally wrong with it. I had already come to the conclusion that the Bible was structured properly by King James and "Right Dividers" follow along with it. The New Testament was rightly ordered the way it was as a book of epistles: All of the Gospels first (Faith + Works), then Acts (transition from faith+works to Faith Alone), followed by all of Paul's letters (Faith alone for the Church age), then the books dealing with Jewish believers outside of the Church Age meant for after the rapture (Faith + Works again [Hebrews thru Revelation]). I came to the same conclusions without even being a party to the RD group. I personally use the concept of "Right Division" by understanding the non-Pauline Books are meant for the Jews. They were literally written TO the Jews. Where Paul was writing TO the gentiles. Paul even flat out tells you he is the apostle to the Gentiles. Paul, James, Peter even state that Paul is to be sent to the Gentiles while "they" to the Jews. Only recently did it become a huge topic lately when I saw the article on UnSealed basically calling "Right Division" un-Godly. I was like Why? RD is just a tool to me. Others slammed "Right Dividers" as un-Christian. I couldn't believe what I was seeing in the comments of that article. This was all new to me. I came here to discuss why RD was being called un-Christian. It blew up in my face it seems in this discussion, but I've been holding on. LOL. :-D I fall into the concept that tools are for learning, we are only human. Right Division could be wrong, sure, but it's the ONLY thing I have found that deals with the paradox of (James 2 vs Paul's Romans 3) sinning against the law of liberty after you have become a believer in Christ. Being guilty with sinning against the law of liberty makes you guilty of ALL SIN! With Paul's "law of Faith" there is no more sin, it was nailed to the cross. This is a paradox in my humble opinion! You can't logically be in both cases at the same time. All other methods to deal with James and Paul make assumptions that I can't rely on, this includes the teachings of the late Dr. Chuck Missler of whom I have nothing but respect for. I can only rely on what I can read in the Bible and what the Holy Spirit shows me. No partiality! "Rightly Diving" argues that the Book of James was meant for Jewish believers after the Rapture, along with the other books that don't begin with the word "Paul". I see nothing wrong with that. The audiences were physically penned in each epistle. That's it. I feel like I've poured my heart out into this thread for the past few days. To me it's just a tool, but one that is very important. I've heavily argued my point throughout this discussion thread. I don't condemn "Right Division" other than being dogmatic on the KJV. If there are other problems with RD, tell me, and I'll tell you what I can as I am lead by the Holy Spirit. We are all brothers and sisters in Christ. USCG... I would like to throw something out for your (and others') consideration, at the risk of possibly throwing a wrench in the works. I have reviewed James 2 and Romans 3 per your above quote, and would like to make the suggestion that said explanation may allow for the entire apparent disagreement between the two passages to be set aside, because there really is no discrepancy between the two passages. WHy? because the two passages are talking about two different things. My suggestions and explanations are this: The works referred to in James and Romans are two different works, because James 2 talks about works which are the result of faith. They are justifying works - they PROVE the faith exists. These works have nothing whatsoever to do with the law. In fact, James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law? Romans 3 explains that the law was given so that we might become conscious of our sin; but that no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law. Therefore, works of the law cannot produce faith, or righteousness, or (ultimately) salvation; so righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ; as is justification (He is the Justifier). So basically, if the above is accurate, James 2 refers to works as a result of faith, and Romans 3 refers to the works of the law (that is, following the law) as an attempt to be justified. To me, there is no discrepancy between these two passages, because they are talking about two different topics! FWIW, Paul (A jew!) despite being an apostle to the gentiles, clearly states in Rom 3:19 that: It makes sense that the jews referred to in this passage, who had converted at the time, prior to Paul"s ministry (and after); were justified by the same faith that the gentiles who came after were! Thus, there cannot be a different set of rules! From this, it should be okay to draw the conclusion that even though the target audience is different for any given epistle; and although the messages approach subjects different ways, the end result MUST BE the same: Justification to the jew AND the gentile, the SAME WAY though the SAME FAITH.Thanks for listening. This is my second reply to your post as a continuation of my first reply to you. James 2 + Hebrews 6 (sinning by being partial against someone while also having faith in Jesus Christ + not being allowed to repent after falling away from Christ Hebrews 6) gets slam dunked in the face by Romans 4:1-8. Works is considered debt and thus nullifies Grace. Please read my colorful post up above. |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 26, 2018 1:56:20 GMT -6
USCG... I would like to throw something out for your (and others') consideration, at the risk of possibly throwing a wrench in the works. I have reviewed James 2 and Romans 3 per your above quote, and would like to make the suggestion that said explanation may allow for the entire apparent disagreement between the two passages to be set aside, because there really is no discrepancy between the two passages. WHy? because the two passages are talking about two different things. My suggestions and explanations are this: The works referred to in James and Romans are two different works, because James 2 talks about works which are the result of faith. They are justifying works - they PROVE the faith exists. These works have nothing whatsoever to do with the law. In fact, James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law? Romans 3 explains that the law was given so that we might become conscious of our sin; but that no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law. Therefore, works of the law cannot produce faith, or righteousness, or (ultimately) salvation; so righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ; as is justification (He is the Justifier). So basically, if the above is accurate, James 2 refers to works as a result of faith, and Romans 3 refers to the works of the law (that is, following the law) as an attempt to be justified. To me, there is no discrepancy between these two passages, because they are talking about two different topics! FWIW, Paul (A jew!) despite being an apostle to the gentiles, clearly states in Rom 3:19 that: It makes sense that the jews referred to in this passage, who had converted at the time, prior to Paul"s ministry (and after); were justified by the same faith that the gentiles who came after were! Thus, there cannot be a different set of rules! From this, it should be okay to draw the conclusion that even though the target audience is different for any given epistle; and although the messages approach subjects different ways, the end result MUST BE the same: Justification to the jew AND the gentile, the SAME WAY though the SAME FAITH.Thanks for listening. "James 2 doesn't mention the law at all! Why would we read the law into a passage that clearly discusses works as evidence of the justification of faith, but never mentions the law?" James 2 does mention the law... James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:11 For He who said, “ Do not commit adultery,” also said, “ Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. Two of those are quoted directly from the law of Moses... LOL I'm still chewing on the rest of your post. Please read my new post above your post. Thanks for pointing those out. I stand corrected with respect to the fact that those are quotes from the mosaic law. However, isn't each given as an example in the context of the original statement found in verse 8? The first part of verse 9 isn't in the mosaic law: "...But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers....", yet the subsequent examples are. I believe that what we are reading in these verses as 'quotes' from the 'law' are in fact examples given, which are representative of the 'actual' law, and whether literally written in the law as what you bolded, or not in the mosaic law at all, as I just quoted: We are all familiar with what Jesus quoted as distilling the entire mosaic law down to the statements given in Mark 12:30-31 And look at Matthew 22:40 However, aren't we talking about the mosaic law? The one that became largely ceremonially pro forma, and was 'works' based? Where is the 'works' part of Deuteronomy 6:4 (the original statement of 'Love the Lord...')? Where is the 'works' part of Leviticus 19:18 (the original statement of 'love your neighbor...')? These commands were never 'codified' in the mosiac law, were they? Why not? Maybe because they are non-works-based by nature? If you love your neighbor in your heart; and you love the Lord in your heart; what is the 'works'? Look at each verse in James: v8 - "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right." v9 - "...if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers..." (is showing favoritism a violation of mosaic law?) v10 is a general precept, wouldnt you agree? It's also a summary of what Paul was talking about in Romans when he said (paraphrase) that the law could never be completely complied with; and thus, would only be used to make us conscious of our sin..."? v11 - commit adultery versus commit murder as examples of the principle in v10; whether you do both, or just one, you are still considered a lawbreakerFinally, in v12, James gives advice: "Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom..." Isn't this behavioral advice? The believers who are the targets of this letter aren't under judgement by God, so what gives? Well, he tells us: "...because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful'..." Note here that James does not express WHO is doing the judging without mercy, but it does not have to be God, does it? It can be the culture a believer lives in, or the [un]lawful jurisdiction, or even the judgment and condemnation of those around us, when they see how we treat others, right? How people were being treated is what started the whole chapter off, wasn't it? There was favoritism being shown towards those who were wealthier, and non-believers were noticing, I bet? Then James segues into the verses where he discusses the concepts of works and faith. These verses appear to be related to the former verses by the 'works' demonstrated in those former versus, doesn't it? So James is giving his readers the low-down on what works is, and what faith is, right? It appears that he is defining two kinds of faith: 'Living' Faith - as evidenced by [good] works which come from it; and 'Dead' Faith - which produces no [good] works Was the favoritism demonstrated in verse 1 a [good] 'work' of living faith? I wonder if for most people, Faith is a continuum, there are some who produce many works, and some who produce few works. Or maybe one's faith can be living when works are produced, but dead when no works are being produced, at any given moment? (that is a rhetorical stray thought)... Anyhow, thanks for catching my error and continuing the discussion. |
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Post by kjs on Dec 26, 2018 10:14:36 GMT -6
If my own daughter became a rabid dog against me, I would still love and forgive her... even to the very point of my own death. Christ did the same. And we were adopted as sons... Your very valid analysis means you can lose your salvation...! I disagree, only during this dispensation of Grace, as many here believe, once saved, always saved as we see from Paul's letters. But after the Rapture... all bets are off! Once saved always saved until the individual hates and willfully attacks Christ like Satan (unpardonable sin). NO, NO, NO
There is NOTHING that separates us from Jesus Christ's Salvation.........
If you (or anyone else) think otherwise -- then you have missed out on the very concept of Grace.....
Salvation is a FREE GIFT granted to us -- it is unmerited favor --- THERE IS NOTHING we can do to earn it!
There is NOTHING we can do to "UN-EARN IT" -- Once the gift is received -- it is never taken back!!!!
If you think some Action or Actions will have Jesus Christ remove His gift -- then you are not believing fully in the risen Lord --
You are still perceiving YOU have some input in salvation -- and THAT IS NOT TRUE!
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Post by mike on Dec 26, 2018 10:51:37 GMT -6
This is a tough one KJ & BORA, but maybe hearing from someone you know would be able to shine some light on this. I accepted Christ in 1994 as my savior but turned from Him around 2005 or so. The rejection was more to that of a "following" His ways rather than saying "you are not the Savior of the world", however over the course of several years the rejection was complete. I rejected everything that has to do with Christ and His kingdom and led my life the way I wanted to. I became my own god, on the throne of my heart, which is truly anti-Christ. I am not proud of the things I've done. After having been enlightened, told many of my conversion, I ran back to my own ways after years of diligently studying. There have been many who have followed a similar path. But then God who is rich in mercy "slapped me in the head" with something called the Great Sign. He made Rev 12:1-2 as real as the screen I watched the video on! Although from my perspective I thought I had lost my salvation, I am certain God didnt see it that way! As I watched and heard more about this once in a lifetime sign from heaven I thought "if He can forgive the Israelites for their unbelief, He can forgive me too". I have no other thing to offer on this than I believe that teaching is erroneous. The unpardonable sin was attributing works of the Holy Spirit (through Jesus) to the power of Satan. As KJ says above, we don't lose Gods grace from our lives. We may put the free gift in a closet or somewhere out of sight but its non-fundable. Once He gives it He wont take it back If my rejection of Him was unpardonable, then my faith in Him is in vain. Anything I have done for Him over the last few years is then an effort of my own flesh which would be counter to Him working through me. (I am not boasting in anything as I have done very little to further the kingdom.) But how else can I explain the love and faith I have for Him who first loved me and continued to do so even though I walked away from Him? |
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Now that would be fun. I guess we could keep Isaiah and perhaps Daniel; and we must keep the four gospels and Acts. But we must stop somewhere. Now that is funny. I guess we could begin by eliminating those books that are never read like Ezekiel.
