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Post by kjs on Dec 27, 2018 15:12:45 GMT -6
Just as Apostle Paul taught ....
(see bottom for verses (by Paul) to show it is exactly what Paul Taught)
The BELIEF which you are attempting to describe is NOT SAVING FAITH....
Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- Yes, that is part of it -- but just belief in that one aspect is not Saving Faith.
Jesus Actions/Accomplishments (death, burial, risen on third day) -- Yes, that is part of it but still is not Saving Faith.
===================================
The Belief -- which is Saving Faith ......
1) Admission of Sinful Nature in general and actual Sins in specific....against the God of the Universe
2) Belief that Jesus is the Son of God 3) Belief that Jesus Lived a Sin-free Life while on this earth 4) Belief that because of Jesus's accomplishments (death, burial, risen on third day) allowed Him to do something no one else has ever done. 5) Belief that Jesus Grants to each individual a Free Gift of Salvation and thereby produces reconciliation from Individual to God of the Universe 6) At which point the Individual becomes baptized in the Holy Spirit (also known as baptized in Christ's death).
That is Saving Faith........
The verses below are all from Paul's epistles (assuming you would reject anything else)
===============================================
Romans 3 ... For all have sinned, and come short of...
II Corinthians 5 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
Romans 6 “The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”
Titus 3 “The kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
Romans 8 The Holy Spirit dwells in each believer. He is “the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ…”
Romans 5 “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God”
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 20:13:31 GMT -6
uscgvet - I do appreciate you being very gracious in this thread and sharing your perspective on this topic. It has not been contentious or combative and that in itself is the way we should discuss things. You are seemingly the only one responding with this viewpoint and as I have read along and participated I'm thinking at times that I hope he doesnt feel as if he is being bashed or his viewpoint being denigrated. That being said I think at this point (for me) I too am going to bow out of the dialogue as it seems to have reached an impasse. Before I do however, I am concerned with this statement: Based on your understanding of Hebrews 6 it's hopeless for me right? I believed in Christ and completely turned away from Him, lived a debaucherous life with many of the same people I once told needed to accept Christ and repent of their sin. So I should finish out my days in living a lifestyle in enmity of God since I can never go back? OR I have to work my way back into God's grace and when I am judged it won't be for 'rewards' at the BEMA seat, I'll miss the rapture and be raised 1000 years later for the Great White Throne to be judged by my works, ultimately landing in the lake of fire as my name is now blotted out of the book of life? I am not trying to be sarcastic about this but this is how I'm interpreting what you've stated, perhaps I'm not understanding you correctly. Dear Lord if I am understanding this correctly, I do hope that USCGVET is 100% incorrect in his viewpoint! Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.My other thought here is about Hebrews 6 - since it was written to Jews and not Gentiles, why would any of what I said apply? I am a dog, so it wouldnt be applicable to me...Although traditionally and stylistically the book of Hebrews seems to have been penned by Paul, if Paul wrote Hebrews, then his gospel wasnt only to the Gentiles? If he did write it maybe thats why he wrote it anonymously...In any event if Hebrews is for the Jew, I see Hebrews 6 as referring those who have been enlightened by the sacrifice of Christ as turning back to sacrificing cows, rams, sheep, doves, etc. If you backtrack to Hebrews 5 we see that Paul...I mean the writer of Hebrews is addressing babes who drink milk and cannot handle meat, then he pivots in chapter 6 to encourage and challenge them to leave those things (animal sacrifice) behind... If I sent you a gift as a check in the mail of $100,000,000 because you told me that you were robbed last night (lets say you lost a few thousands dollars worth of goods and some family heirlooms), and you thought the gift from me was just too much then precede to tell me by mail: "This gift was just too generous, I'll pay you back because I feel bad taking this much from you", ... that means it wasn't a gift to you, it was a loan. You yourself felt the need to incur this debt to pay back to me. So you start working to pay it all back to me (lets say over 10 years time). But throughout your work, you get robbed some more, even a few thousand more times. Are you going to send me another letter, telling me you were robbed a few thousand more times, hoping for more of a loan you wish to pay back? No. You're not going to do that. You're just going to keep on working. From my point of view, you were robbed, I gave you all that I had to give you. Not only that, I don't have a penny more to give, not even a Venezuelan penny. I'm completely broke! But you still think you owe all of that money back to me because you feel so bad about taking it all... Edit 2: Even more that that, I sold all my blood, both kidneys, both lungs, my heart, my hair, every part of my body, just so I could give you everything I had as a GIFT by check in the mail... So now I'm dead... But you still want to pay me back this overly generous gift, now you feel even worse, because you just found out that I died 10 years ago giving you everything while you were working to pay me back. That means you can't even ask me for more money even if you wanted too because I'm gone. Edit 3: But don't worry too much. It kinda made me upset that you thought my gift to you was a loan. That's OK, I see you are working hard to pay off the loan even though there is ALMOST no way you're ever going to be able to do it. I'll be just and balance your own works in your attempt to pay me back. But if you REALLLY want to pay me back in full: in order to do that, you'll have to give me back all that $100,000,000 plus sell ALL of your blood, both kidneys, both lungs, your heart, your hair, and every other part of your body.... Hmm, beheading sounds about right...? But you better do it quick, I don't think it's fair and just that you keep on living day by day where I lost my life 10 years ago... That's not fair and just. That is the general concept of Hebrews 6. And that is also exactly why Paul called that concept debt and not GRACE! Edit 1: and also with your Revelation 20:12 reference, see how that also aligns perfectly with James and Hebrews? You have to do something to justify yourself to counter balance out your own sins. Paul is out the window in the Tribulation. Edit 4: James 2 amplifies your debt that you took upon yourself to pay back by telling you that when you sinned, after having been a believer, you broke all the law and are guilty of all the law! So when you start paying back, it's intense on how much you owe! I can see where you are going with your explanation, thank you. I have a question that pertains to your 'story': Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift? |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 20:14:09 GMT -6
Um, USCG... When you go and perform work for someone, and they do not pay you immediately, who incurs the debt? You? or the person you worked for? Do you think God owes anyone anything, but what he has promised and not yet delivered on? Can you get more salvation by doing more works? Please see my response I just wrote to Mike on this question. I think it answers your question. please see my last post! thanks! |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 20:16:33 GMT -6
Ok, fitz and yardstick. You've posted quite a lot of material for me to chew through and I have not been giving you guys the attention you absolutely deserve. I'm a guy which means I'm not as great at tremendous focus on multiple things at the same time as women seem to be. LOL. Yes, I'm making fun of guys here. Women have multi-core processors. You've been doin' great! No need to apologize! I've also had to 'dig deep' and put a lot of focus on responding; and as you may have noticed, the post times are rather late (pacific time)! It has been taking me a couple hours to parse though my responses and try to keep them cogent and on-point. Thanks for your patience! |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 20:23:42 GMT -6
If I sent you a gift as a check in the mail of $100,000,000 because you told me that you were robbed last night (lets say you lost a few thousands dollars worth of goods and some family heirlooms), and you thought the gift from me was just too much then precede to tell me by mail: "This gift was just too generous, I'll pay you back because I feel bad taking this much from you", ... that means it wasn't a gift to you, it was a loan. You yourself felt the need to incur this debt to pay back to me. So you start working to pay it all back to me (lets say over 10 years time). But throughout your work, you get robbed some more, even a few thousand more times. Are you going to send me another letter, telling me you were robbed a few thousand more times, hoping for more of a loan you wish to pay back? No. You're not going to do that. You're just going to keep on working. From my point of view, you were robbed, I gave you all that I had to give you. Not only that, I don't have a penny more to give, not even a Venezuelan penny. I'm completely broke! But you still think you owe all of that money back to me because you feel so bad about taking it all... Edit 2: Even more that that, I sold all my blood, both kidneys, both lungs, my heart, my hair, every part of my body, just so I could give you everything I had as a GIFT by check in the mail... So now I'm dead... But you still want to pay me back this overly generous gift, now you feel even worse, because you just found out that I died 10 years ago giving you everything while you were working to pay me back. That means you can't even ask me for more money even if you wanted too because I'm gone. Edit 3: But don't worry too much. It kinda made me upset that you thought my gift to you was a loan. That's OK, I see you are working hard to pay off the loan even though there is ALMOST no way you're ever going to be able to do it. I'll be just and balance your own works in your attempt to pay me back. But if you REALLLY want to pay me back in full: in order to do that, you'll have to give me back all that $100,000,000 plus sell ALL of your blood, both kidneys, both lungs, your heart, your hair, and every other part of your body.... Hmm, beheading sounds about right...? But you better do it quick, I don't think it's fair and just that you keep on living day by day where I lost my life 10 years ago... That's not fair and just. That is the general concept of Hebrews 6. And that is also exactly why Paul called that concept debt and not GRACE! Edit 1: and also with your Revelation 20:12 reference, see how that also aligns perfectly with James and Hebrews? You have to do something to justify yourself to counter balance out your own sins. Paul is out the window in the Tribulation. Edit 4: James 2 amplifies your debt that you took upon yourself to pay back by telling you that when you sinned, after having been a believer, you broke all the law and are guilty of all the law! So when you start paying back, it's intense on how much you owe! I can see where you are going with your explanation, thank you. I have a question that pertains to your 'story': Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift? "Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift?" YES, Exactly Right! But only after I gave you the gift. But in your doing so, you offended me in front of others, rejecting my gift as a gift, but instead turning it into a loan. So I'll just go ahead and along with you and require you to pay it back in full. Business is business. so Blood for blood. That is what is just and fair, with no partiality! |
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Post by yardstick on Dec 27, 2018 20:30:49 GMT -6
I can see where you are going with your explanation, thank you. I have a question that pertains to your 'story': Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift? "Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift?" YES, Exactly Right! But only after I gave you the gift. But in your doing so, you offended me in front of others, rejecting my gift as a gift, but instead turn it into a loan. So I'll just go ahead and along with you and require you to pay it back in full. Business is business. so Blood for blood. That is what is just and fair. So that would be works, versus faith, right? |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 27, 2018 20:34:25 GMT -6
Just as Apostle Paul taught ....
(see bottom for verses (by Paul) to show it is exactly what Paul Taught)
The BELIEF which you are attempting to describe is NOT SAVING FAITH....
Jesus Christ is the Son of God -- Yes, that is part of it -- but just belief in that one aspect is not Saving Faith.
Jesus Actions/Accomplishments (death, burial, risen on third day) -- Yes, that is part of it but still is not Saving Faith.
===================================
The Belief -- which is Saving Faith ......
1) Admission of Sinful Nature in general and actual Sins in specific....against the God of the Universe
2) Belief that Jesus is the Son of God 3) Belief that Jesus Lived a Sin-free Life while on this earth 4) Belief that because of Jesus's accomplishments (death, burial, risen on third day) allowed Him to do something no one else has ever done. 5) Belief that Jesus Grants to each individual a Free Gift of Salvation and thereby produces reconciliation from Individual to God of the Universe 6) At which point the Individual becomes baptized in the Holy Spirit (also known as baptized in Christ's death).
That is Saving Faith........
The verses below are all from Paul's epistles (assuming you would reject anything else)
===============================================
Romans 3 ... For all have sinned, and come short of...
II Corinthians 5 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him
Romans 6 “The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”
Titus 3 “The kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior”
Romans 8 The Holy Spirit dwells in each believer. He is “the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ…”
Romans 5 “Being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God”
Ok, I'll go with this. I want to see if your points 1-6 are found in the Acts 10 account when the first gentiles received the Holy Spirit after hearing the gospel from Peter. (It's like the best recording we have of what was being preached at the very moment when these gentiles were actually saved and sealed) (and notice I'm not validating your points with Paul's letters here...) It will take me some time to process this. You have made some very clear, important points. And thank you for making it. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 28, 2018 13:45:56 GMT -6
"Doesn't the story pre-suppose that person paying you back chooses to incur the debt, rather than receive the free gift?" YES, Exactly Right! But only after I gave you the gift. But in your doing so, you offended me in front of others, rejecting my gift as a gift, but instead turn it into a loan. So I'll just go ahead and along with you and require you to pay it back in full. Business is business. so Blood for blood. That is what is just and fair. So that would be works, versus faith, right? Before I answer this question, I want to make absolutely sure we are both (all of us here really) on the same page of what is defined as "works" in the Bible. Since we don't have an actual written definition in the Bible of "works", we have to use logic and reason of the mind and hypothesize its very definition, and then "believe" it. We can see how the 1611 KJV Dictionary defines "work" av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/work.htmlBut I've read many articles that say Biblical "works" is more than the 1611 KJV dictionary definition. I think it's safe to assume this is right. The best hypothesis of the Biblical definition of "works" I have found to date is this: The "physical act" or "physical movement" while'st at the same time, following or disobeying a command from God. My reasoning of this definition as being correct: Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his son Issac in Genesis 22, as a "test" (or "tempt" in the KJV) of Abraham's faith. In Romans 4:1-8 we can see Paul arguing the case that Abraham was ALREADY found righteous in his faith alone, even quoting Psalms 32 about King David and faith alone. What "work" did we perform, physically, to receive the Holy Spirit? None! (Acts 10 is proof here, the people just stood there, listened to Peter, and then believed in their hearts... that's it) What "work" did Abraham perform, physically, to be found righteous? None! (Romans 4 defines this and clarifies it throughout the chapter) Examples of Works: Noah was commanded to build the Ark. Noah physically worked to build the ark while'st following a command from God. Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They physically ate the apple, performing a work while'st disobeying a direct command from God. (Edited based on boraddict's comment below this post) So "works" is any physical movement or restriction of movement, that we do or don't do, commanded by God, (regardless of the commandments of the law of Moses)... do we agree? Does this also mean the "royal law" as James 1&2 defines, or the "law of Faith" as Paul defines in Romans 3... of Jesus' reiteration of God's commands, "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul" and "love your neighbor as you love yourself"... Is loving God and your neighbor considered works? I'm not quite sure: The emotion to love someone is in my heart, mind, and soul. No physical movement outside of my body. Though I am following a command from God. Acting on showing your emotion of love to someone would be physical movement while'st also obeying a commandment from God. I think that is what "works" would be in this case. Thoughts? |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 28, 2018 21:26:29 GMT -6
So that would be works, versus faith, right? Before I answer this question, I want to make absolutely sure we are both (all of us here really) on the same page of what is defined as "works" in the Bible. Since we don't have an actual written definition in the Bible of "works", we have to use logic and reason of the mind and hypothesize its very definition, and then "believe" it. We can see how the 1611 KJV Dictionary defines "work" av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/work.htmlBut I've read many articles that say Biblical "works" is more than the 1611 KJV dictionary definition. I think it's safe to assume this is right. The best hypothesis of the Biblical definition of "works" I have found to date is this: The "physical act" or "physical movement" while'st at the same time, following or disobeying a command from God. My reasoning of this definition as being correct: Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his son Issac in Genesis 22, as a "test" (or "tempt" in the KJV) of Abraham's faith. In Romans 4:1-8 we can see Paul arguing the case that Abraham was ALREADY found righteous in his faith alone, even quoting Psalms 32 about King David and faith alone. What "work" did we perform, physically, to receive the Holy Spirit? None! (Acts 10 is proof here, the people just stood there, listened to Peter, and then believed in their hearts... that's it) What "work" did Abraham perform, physically, to be found righteous? None! (Romans 4 defines this and clarifies it throughout the chapter) Examples of Works: Noah was commanded to build the Ark. Noah physically worked to build the ark while'st following a command from God. Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They physically ate the apple, performing a work while'st disobeying a direct command from God. So "works" is any physical movement or restriction of movement, that we do or don't do, commanded by God, (outside of following the commandments of the law of Moses)... do we agree? Does this also mean the "royal law" as James 1&2 defines, or the "law of Faith" as Paul defines in Romans 3... of Jesus' reiteration of God's commands, "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul" and "love your neighbor as you love yourself"... Is loving God and your neighbor considered works? I'm not quite sure: The emotion to love someone is in my heart, mind, and soul. No physical movement outside of my body. Though I am following a command from God. Acting on showing your emotion of love to someone would be physical movement while'st also obeying a commandment from God. I think that is what "works" would be in this case. Thoughts? If you walk to far on the Sabbath then you have worked on the Sabbath. The Jews follow that law. |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 28, 2018 21:31:29 GMT -6
Before I answer this question, I want to make absolutely sure we are both (all of us here really) on the same page of what is defined as "works" in the Bible. Since we don't have an actual written definition in the Bible of "works", we have to use logic and reason of the mind and hypothesize its very definition, and then "believe" it. We can see how the 1611 KJV Dictionary defines "work" av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-dictionary/work.htmlBut I've read many articles that say Biblical "works" is more than the 1611 KJV dictionary definition. I think it's safe to assume this is right. The best hypothesis of the Biblical definition of "works" I have found to date is this: The "physical act" or "physical movement" while'st at the same time, following or disobeying a command from God. My reasoning of this definition as being correct: Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his son Issac in Genesis 22, as a "test" (or "tempt" in the KJV) of Abraham's faith. In Romans 4:1-8 we can see Paul arguing the case that Abraham was ALREADY found righteous in his faith alone, even quoting Psalms 32 about King David and faith alone. What "work" did we perform, physically, to receive the Holy Spirit? None! (Acts 10 is proof here, the people just stood there, listened to Peter, and then believed in their hearts... that's it) What "work" did Abraham perform, physically, to be found righteous? None! (Romans 4 defines this and clarifies it throughout the chapter) Examples of Works: Noah was commanded to build the Ark. Noah physically worked to build the ark while'st following a command from God. Adam and Eve were commanded to not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. They physically ate the apple, performing a work while'st disobeying a direct command from God. So "works" is any physical movement or restriction of movement, that we do or don't do, commanded by God, (outside of following the commandments of the law of Moses)... do we agree? Does this also mean the "royal law" as James 1&2 defines, or the "law of Faith" as Paul defines in Romans 3... of Jesus' reiteration of God's commands, "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul" and "love your neighbor as you love yourself"... Is loving God and your neighbor considered works? I'm not quite sure: The emotion to love someone is in my heart, mind, and soul. No physical movement outside of my body. Though I am following a command from God. Acting on showing your emotion of love to someone would be physical movement while'st also obeying a commandment from God. I think that is what "works" would be in this case. Thoughts? If you walk to far on the Sabbath then you have worked on the Sabbath. The Jews follow that law. Good catch. So "works" includes the law of Moses, but is not entirely based on those laws, "works" includes God's commands both internal and external of the law of Moses. But still they are physical movement or action. I've edited my original post on this redefining what you corrected me on. The laws of Moses are included in "works". |
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Post by boraddict on Dec 29, 2018 5:29:50 GMT -6
They (the Jews) were extensive on what they defined as work and that information might be found in some of their stuff. I doubt that it is in the Torah or the prophets.
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 29, 2018 6:58:56 GMT -6
They (the Jews) were extensive on what they defined as work and that information might be found in some of their stuff. I doubt that it is in the Torah or the prophets. Agreed. God did NOT directly command the people of Israel and the Pharisees and Sadducees with all these "laws" that they were following. Those laws were found in the Talmud or whatever else not in the Old Testament of what we call the Bible today. When John the Baptist was very active: Matthew 3:4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. All of a sudden Pharisees and Sadducees started showing up to get baptized into repentance too, but John rebuked them, and from what I can tell, it was a heavy rebuke: Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “ Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” This is absolutely blatant works + repentance! Not only that... " Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,"... how this reads to me personally is that John the Baptist is saying they need to do good works before they can be baptized into repentance. This is my conjecture of course, we don't actually see the word "before". But John seems to be peeved that the Pharisees and Sadducees were even there to be baptized into repentance. I truly don't see any Grace through Faith here! This is flat out works... and if it's good enough works, then you can be baptized into repentance...! This event was recorded in Matthew 3, Mark 1, Luke 3, and John 1 (for those who want to quickly look up this event) As to what "works" the people of Israel were to do to be baptized into repentance, John the Baptist elaborated to them: Luke 3: 10 So the people asked him, saying, “What shall we do then?” 11 He answered and said to them, “He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise.” <--- Share all things like Peter preached in Acts 12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” 13 And he said to them, “Collect no more than what is appointed for you.” 14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, “And what shall we do?” So he said to them, “Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.” |
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Post by davewatchman on Dec 29, 2018 7:37:47 GMT -6
The best hypothesis of the Biblical definition of "works" I have found to date is this: The "physical act" or "physical movement" while'st at the same time, following or disobeying a command from God. (Edited based on boraddict's comment below this post) So "works" is any physical movement or restriction of movement, that we do or don't do, commanded by God, (regardless of the commandments of the law of Moses)... do we agree? Thoughts? I think this is one of those threads that i can read through and not figure out what anyone is talking about. It sounds like they are discussing when they got saved, or how they got saved, or how to stay saved, or when they received the Holy Spirit. I was picked by the Father before the foundation of the universe. So i was known by the Lord when i was still in the womb. I think they call me a five pointer, a five point Calvinist. I was born saved. I just don't know, at this point, how bright i will shine when i stand in my allotted place in the Kingdom . If you walk to far on the Sabbath then you have worked on the Sabbath. The Jews follow that law. I do too. I keep my feet from breaking the Sabbath, and doing as i please on the Lord's Holy Day. I call the Sabbath a delight. I am a well watered garden. I was up and out on my Sabbath Day's journey this morning at 6:00. A 20 minute walk outside of my gates. It was freezing. It was delightful. "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet,
which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.So i would be fairly sure that my 20 minute walk around my neighborhood level block would be under the Acts radar. Even today, to walk down the Temple mount, through the Kidron Valley and up the incline to the Mount called Olivet, is a bit of a work out for the muscles. They say it takes 22 to 25 minutes depending on ones level of fitness. Some people claim that they can break a sweat. But if i'm wrong and have made a miscalculation in time or distance, and have violated a Commandment, i don't think that i'll lose my salvation for it. I, after all, was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. What good WORK He began in me, He will see that it is brought to completion at the Day of Jesus Christ. And like James said: "Faith without works is dead. “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good WORK in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
It is right for me to feel this way about you all,
because I hold you in my heart,
for you are all partakers with me of gracePartakers of Grace, Peaceful Sabbath  |
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Post by uscgvet on Dec 29, 2018 7:53:21 GMT -6
The best hypothesis of the Biblical definition of "works" I have found to date is this: The "physical act" or "physical movement" while'st at the same time, following or disobeying a command from God. (Edited based on boraddict's comment below this post) So "works" is any physical movement or restriction of movement, that we do or don't do, commanded by God, (regardless of the commandments of the law of Moses)... do we agree? Thoughts? I think this is one of those threads that i can read through and not figure out what anyone is talking about. It sounds like they are discussing when they got saved, or how they got saved, or how to stay saved, or when they received the Holy Spirit. I was picked by the Father before the foundation of the universe. So i was known by the Lord when i was still in the womb. I think they call me a five pointer, a five point Calvinist. I was born saved. I just don't know, at this point, how bright i will shine when i stand in my allotted place in the Kingdom . If you walk to far on the Sabbath then you have worked on the Sabbath. The Jews follow that law. I do too. I keep my feet from breaking the Sabbath, and doing as i please on the Lord's Holy Day. I call the Sabbath a delight. I am a well watered garden. I was up and out on my Sabbath Day's journey this morning at 6:00. A 20 minute walk outside of my gates. It was freezing. It was delightful. "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet,
which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.So i would be fairly sure that my 20 minute walk around my neighborhood level block would be under the Acts radar. Even today, to walk down the Temple mount, through the Kidron Valley and up the incline to the Mount called Olivet, is a bit of a work out for the muscles. They say it takes 22 to 25 minutes depending on ones level of fitness. Some people claim that they can break a sweat. But if i'm wrong and have made a miscalculation in time or distance, and have violated a Commandment, i don't think that i'll lose my salvation for it. I, after all, was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. What good WORK He began in me, He will see that it is brought to completion at the Day of Jesus Christ. And like James said: "Faith without works is dead. “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good WORK in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
It is right for me to feel this way about you all,
because I hold you in my heart,
for you are all partakers with me of gracePartakers of Grace, Peaceful Sabbath If you are just now coming into this thread, please understand that this has to be the deepest, most mind, heart, and soul taxing event that I can ever remember in my life, and I'm 41 now. I think I've put more time and concentration into this thread as a [single condensed thought] than any other time in my life. Every word mentioned from everyone involved here I have deeply studied, prayed on, and contemplated. I haven't responded to everyone yet as it takes a lot of time and study to these questions and thoughts. It's as if I am in a courtroom, being judged by a jury of my piers, of whom I have nothing but love and respect and admiration for, arguing my case of what I see, what the Holy Spirit has lead me to believe when I study His Word. |
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Post by mike on Dec 29, 2018 10:48:48 GMT -6
Dave,
Thanks for chiming in. Your post was thoughtful and kind. You expressed your views as a 5 Pointer yet didn't express it the was the only worldview possible (even if you do think that way). I also appreciate your statement about your Sabbath keeping. I live in a fairly well to do area where there are large populations of "Law Keepers". I also had a sister-in-law who with her husband practiced the law as diligently as possible yet always admitted how flawed they were and how difficult it was to keep the whole law. Now your post helped me to understand a thought I had been having about this thread.
VET - I can't speak for all but likely most would agree, works are not required for salvation, so we have this debate where most people who are replying see it the same way. Meanwhile you see if differently and being the minority of those chiming in, it certainly can look like you are on trial. If you or anyone else is feeling that way please tell me, or another moderator right away. Your "work" (<- see what I did there) and prayerful dedication shows, and you're doing it with Grace, patience, and understanding. Thank you for your example as I need a reminder on how to love it brothers and sisters!
Gal 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Now my question for you that Dave helped bring into clarity for me is how does faith + works apply to children? My 13 yr old believes in God and that Jesus restores us back to Him. What would be the amount or level of work she needs added to her faith?
She does not get Bible daily, nor does she pray regularly. Is she still saved from your perspective? How does God remain just and fair?
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