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Post by yardstick on Oct 9, 2018 18:47:25 GMT -6
venge - What do I think follows? I am waiting for the rapture of the church. Rev 12:5b The child that is caught up to God. Do you know that the word used there is most often translated children? Of course that wouldn't make sense to the translators. She (Israel) bore a male Child (Jesus) and her children (the church) were caught up to God (after the dragon is cast out). And so, because Satan cannot get the Church (cannot devour the child), he will try and get Israel (Rev 12:13). He won't be able to do that either (Rev 12:16), so he goes off to make war with those who have become Christians after the rapture (Rev 12:17). But I think there are other things to be watching, too. Russia/Iran/Turkey and what they are doing on Israel's border, for example. Damascus. The major push for peace. I don't know what will come next; I don't think anyone can say for sure. Yes, I was hoping that last year was the Rapture. But learning about the sign...I have never doubted that what I believe is truth. But it just solidified that everything in the Bible is true, that we are in the Last Days, that our God is AMAZING and loves us very much. And this world has nothing for me. I love my husband, and I love my kids, but this is not my home. I see and agree with most of what you have there Natalie. I highlighted what is probably a 'fine point', so that I might add (after quoting the passage in question below) that there are two things that appear to occur before the 'harpazo' described in 12:5b. and if you don't mind, I'll share my opinion as to what I see: 1. The dragon stood in front of the woman for purposes described - I personally think this may have at least a two-fold meaning - a) that the 'kingdom of God' on earth (as the Jews see it) will be formalized, in the sense of the 'agreement with many' being signed (but not necessarily 'confirmed'! Don't you think Satan is thinking to himself "What a delicious trap!"?). Represented by the dragon crouching down, just licking his chops waiting to devour the 'child' as it is born... and b) the true Kingdom of God being formalized in Heaven (see Isa 66:7-11 - before she goes into labor she gives birth!) What is the labor?2. The woman gives birth - see #1 above - she gives birth before she goes into labor! What is the labor? " And her child was snatched up..." - We often read the word 'and' here (in 12:5b) as if it were a 'then', but what if in fact it should be read as 'in addition to what I just said'? Does that not match better the Isa 66:7-8 passage and 'help' it make more sense when considered in conjunction with Rev 12:5a? If the woman is Zion- the 'kingdom' of God- It would make sense why Isa 26 would have the Jews saying "...we have given birth to wind...' - "We tried to make the kingdom of God on earth and failed, but the LORD succeeded!" - see the entire passages starting at vs 1; and I think the reader may agree: consider this passage as sung by the Jews at the end of the great tribulation, after the LORD is victorious; and see if it makes sense to you in the same way it does to me. biblehub.com/niv/revelation/12.htmHypothesis: The items shown above are chronological, and get this: 12:1 - A celestial time marker for events about to occur, which are described later in the passage, identifying who the 'woman' is - Zion, the Kingdom of God (All believers in all places and times, whether raptured, deceased or living are the children.) 12:2 - A celestial representation of what will happen in 12:5 (vis. Isa 66:7-8) - she is 'about to' give birth. I wonder in what way the 'crying out in pain' part is symbolic... a lament because the time is up and she wont have any more children? Rewind a bit and re-watch the movement of Jupiter as it is being 'birthed' back in Sept-Oct 2017. Note where Jupiter went right after this: the 'throne room', Libra. 12:3 - A celestial time marker for events about to occur, which are described later in the passage, identifying who the 'dragon' is. He is on the scene! 12:4 - A celestial representation of either what will occur in 12:9 - the expulsion of Satan and his angels after losing the 'war in heaven'; or this is where Satan finalizes his recruitment efforts, and is represented by the falling stars - the angels choose sides (" his tail swept a third...") 12:5a - the 'official' birth of the Kingdom of God, triggering the harpazo in 5b 12:5b - the actual harpazo (snatching away) of believers from this world into heaven. 12:6 - The woman fleeing away into the wilderness - this is probably the AoD flight, because the woman is nourished 1260 days, as per other passages. BTW, the woman here would be the same Zion, its just the Jewish part - the remnant who escape. 12:7 - The war in heaven starts 12:8 - The loss of status by Satan and his follower angels 12:9 - The dragon kicked out - corresponds with possession of the AC ('fatal headwound'/resurrection) when Satan arrives . . . |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 9, 2018 20:35:58 GMT -6
This has been discussed at length before, but, I would once again like to point out, in case anyone has any problem with Rev.12:5, the word used for "child" the second time in the verse is Teknon and according to the NASB, it was translated as "children" 76 times, as opposed to only 13 times translated as "child".
5043 téknon – properly, a child; (figuratively) anyone living in full dependence on the heavenly Father, i.e. fully (willingly) relying upon the Lord in glad submission.
This does not sound like a definition of the risen Christ to me. While He relied upon our Heavenly Father to raise Him from the dead, He was not "snatched up" right after His birth and when He did ascend to Heaven He was seated at the right Hand of God the Father. Still not someone "living in full dependence". "I and the Father are one" John 10:30
I wonder if it might be better translated as: "And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter; and(in addition to what I just said (thank you for that yardstick)) her children were caught up to God and to His throne." |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 9, 2018 20:43:54 GMT -6
I found that interesting, too. Maybe it didn't make sense to the translators to say male child and then to say children, so they just used child for both. (but I'm guessing). It makes sense to those who see it as a rapture passage (the use of "caught up" or harpazo)
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Post by venge on Oct 10, 2018 13:08:05 GMT -6
And Venge 2 things. I'm not yelling at you, I'm excited about His love for me and for us! Stop calling it The zodiac sign. First the Great Sign is not a "zodiac" sign. Last it's called Mazzeroth, the Hebrews followed this as signs of season. I know there's some info on here about that. If anyone knows please link it or PM me with it 😁 Mike, I call it a Zodiac sign because everyone here is using the zodiac symbols in relation to Rev 12. The women, lion, etc are all zodiac signs. In fact, Virgo the Virgin is the women and Leo the Lion is above her. Both are Zodiac and both are represented in any video I see of the Rev 12 sign. From Wikipedia on the dragon: Constellation of the Zodiac. I am only calling it what all 3 are. The Bible uses the term Mazzeroth to denote Constellations and I understand that. Hence the Pleides and Orion. Leo is also a Constellation but a Zodiac. Cancer is a constellation and a Zodiac Taurus is a constellation and a zodiac And it goes on....I am not linking it with personality changes and dates.... But, cancer, sagitarrius, leo and virgo are all known to be zodiac. Here are exerts from some Rev 12 sign websites: I could go on and on and on.....I don't agree with random websites and I am not saying they are truthful nor have I researched each independently. I wanted to only show, ALOT of the people out there following the Rev 12 sign call this zodiac signs. |
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Post by venge on Oct 10, 2018 13:10:25 GMT -6
Hey guys, I would like to finally chime in here because I believe I may have some pertinent information which I am not sure venge has seen. Venge, thank you for posting your supporting information. I would like to cover some stuff below that we have previously discussed, and I think may help explain why so many view the celestial event on September 27, 2017 as being THE sign from Revelation 12:1, and why Revelation 12:1 is considered to be a literal sign (after the fact). Please allow me to direct you to the following links, relevant to this discussion: board.unsealed.org/thread/608/thing-missing-clarkes-interpretation-signboard.unsealed.org/thread/107/find-dragon?page=6board.unsealed.org/thread/1598/missler-insightsThe long and short of these threads and the posts referred to above is that the phrase in Revelation 12:1 "A great sign appeared in heaven..." clearly indicates a celestial perspective (see the greek lexicon for the word translated as 'heaven' - οὐρανῷ - biblehub.com/greek/3772.htm); and that sign is distinctive in the sense that it is VERY rare - as in: one-of-a-kind. Analysis done by several people indicates the conjunction of the planets, sun, moon and stars that occurred on Sept 23, 2017 occurs once, and only once, in 7000 years! I think most people would agree that such a conjunction would indeed be a 'great sign'! Additionally, the word 'another' referring to the sign described in Rev 12:3 - "Then another sign appeared in heaven..." indicates a) that the sign is in the same place as the Rev 12:1 sign, namely celestially located, and b) that 'another' means 'another of the same type...' (celestially speaking). Thus, we may draw the conclusion that the celestial configuration which occurred on 9/23/17 was the 'great sign' referred to in Rev 12:1 and the Rev 12:3 sign will be a similar (though not 'great') sign. There has been much speculation regarding the Red Dragon sign of 12:3. Currently, much of that speculation is focused on this year's Draconids, because in some years, (including this one!) they can be very spectacular, including, but not limited to appearing like '1/3 of the stars falling from heaven'. There are some other hypotheses, such as one I've made about these signs being time-markers - we already knew we were in the season, right? So if accurately interpreted, these signs, 'tighten it up' some, don't they? Time is VERY short! Anyhow, I hope you find some adequate explanation for increased understanding, venge. P.s: Addressing some of your concerns, highlighted above: 1. How do you know it describes the past only? How would John have had a vision of something he would have already (likely) known about? If he did, how could that be prophecy, in a book of prophecy?2. It appears that even the 'expert' commentators cannot agree on interpretation. Since this is so, how could the interpretation that has been presented to you be any less valid? Someone has to be 'wrong', unless multiple interpretations are allowed for (all of which are, to a greater or lesser degree, accurate). What if it is the 'experts'?3. I think the question you posed right at the end is an adequate explanation; keeping in mind, that knowledge takes time to increase. Previous 'interpretations' must be evaluated in light of the level of knowledge available at the time. That said, the statement prior to your query pre-supposes that those who believed before 9/2017 could not have been mistaken in their 'doctrine', doesn't it? Is a 'Doctrine of Imminence' spelled out somewhere in scripture, or is it a hypothesis?I will need time to respond to this amount of info, and it may have to wait till Sunday because I am very busy this week with work. But I will reply! |
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Post by yardstick on Oct 10, 2018 20:02:55 GMT -6
Hey guys, I would like to finally chime in here because I believe I may have some pertinent information which I am not sure venge has seen. Venge, thank you for posting your supporting information. I would like to cover some stuff below that we have previously discussed, and I think may help explain why so many view the celestial event on September 27, 2017 as being THE sign from Revelation 12:1, and why Revelation 12:1 is considered to be a literal sign (after the fact). Please allow me to direct you to the following links, relevant to this discussion: board.unsealed.org/thread/608/thing-missing-clarkes-interpretation-signboard.unsealed.org/thread/107/find-dragon?page=6board.unsealed.org/thread/1598/missler-insightsThe long and short of these threads and the posts referred to above is that the phrase in Revelation 12:1 "A great sign appeared in heaven..." clearly indicates a celestial perspective (see the greek lexicon for the word translated as 'heaven' - οὐρανῷ - biblehub.com/greek/3772.htm); and that sign is distinctive in the sense that it is VERY rare - as in: one-of-a-kind. Analysis done by several people indicates the conjunction of the planets, sun, moon and stars that occurred on Sept 23, 2017 occurs once, and only once, in 7000 years! I think most people would agree that such a conjunction would indeed be a 'great sign'! Additionally, the word 'another' referring to the sign described in Rev 12:3 - "Then another sign appeared in heaven..." indicates a) that the sign is in the same place as the Rev 12:1 sign, namely celestially located, and b) that 'another' means 'another of the same type...' (celestially speaking). Thus, we may draw the conclusion that the celestial configuration which occurred on 9/23/17 was the 'great sign' referred to in Rev 12:1 and the Rev 12:3 sign will be a similar (though not 'great') sign. There has been much speculation regarding the Red Dragon sign of 12:3. Currently, much of that speculation is focused on this year's Draconids, because in some years, (including this one!) they can be very spectacular, including, but not limited to appearing like '1/3 of the stars falling from heaven'. There are some other hypotheses, such as one I've made about these signs being time-markers - we already knew we were in the season, right? So if accurately interpreted, these signs, 'tighten it up' some, don't they? Time is VERY short! Anyhow, I hope you find some adequate explanation for increased understanding, venge. P.s: Addressing some of your concerns, highlighted above: 1. How do you know it describes the past only? How would John have had a vision of something he would have already (likely) known about? If he did, how could that be prophecy, in a book of prophecy?2. It appears that even the 'expert' commentators cannot agree on interpretation. Since this is so, how could the interpretation that has been presented to you be any less valid? Someone has to be 'wrong', unless multiple interpretations are allowed for (all of which are, to a greater or lesser degree, accurate). What if it is the 'experts'?3. I think the question you posed right at the end is an adequate explanation; keeping in mind, that knowledge takes time to increase. Previous 'interpretations' must be evaluated in light of the level of knowledge available at the time. That said, the statement prior to your query pre-supposes that those who believed before 9/2017 could not have been mistaken in their 'doctrine', doesn't it? Is a 'Doctrine of Imminence' spelled out somewhere in scripture, or is it a hypothesis?I will need time to respond to this amount of info, and it may have to wait till Sunday because I am very busy this week with work. But I will reply! That is quite alright! If you don't mind me saying so, I believe the reason everyone uses the 'zodiac' names for the constellations, is that the knowledge of their original names has been lost. There are a LOT of hints as to what the meanings of the original constellations were supposed to be by the names used for the stars that comprise them. Chuck Missler did an interesting exegesis on this in one of the videos you can find on youtube. I hope you find the video linked below as interesting as I did. Missler explanation (partial)
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Post by mike on Oct 11, 2018 8:03:08 GMT -6
The Missler video has great information Stick! I especially like that he briefly notes that Adam & Enoch likely used mnemonics to teach their kids the plan of redemption. That was my point in an earlier note  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2018 8:10:57 GMT -6
I often wonder who will pick up Misslers ministry? He had such an anointing and ability to get into topics that preachers today will not delve into.
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