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Post by venge on Oct 7, 2018 14:32:59 GMT -6
I think you cannot see it Scripturally because you have the dragon and the beast being equal. The beast may be part of the dragon, but the beast is in the pit and the dragon is not. The dragon will fight in a war with Michael and be cast down to the earth. The dragon does not come out of the pit. And the Bible says that the dragon is Satan. Revelation 12:7-9 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. I understand you there Natalie. That doesn't explain Christ agreeing to the Zodiac. That doesn't show the sign in heaven is a zodiac. Look at Jeremiah 2 Now look at what one commentator said: I pray no one here is addicted to astrology and using it to further biblical means. I also hope as the commentator put it, are not using it to further future events. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 7, 2018 14:33:49 GMT -6
Welcome, kathy! I saw that this morning, too. And you know, coincidence is not a kosher word.  |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 7, 2018 14:34:58 GMT -6
venge you know there is a difference between astronomy and astrology, right? ETA: I have had this discussion with you before and am bowing out. Someone else can try and convince you. 
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 7, 2018 17:03:30 GMT -6
If the signs are to be believed for what they are, as I think many do, then after this meteor shower that is about to happen in a couple of nights, the next event to happen specifically for us is the second part of verse 4.
"and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."
Satan's attention is being focused on us. We must be ready for anything right now!
Maranatha!
Hello SK, Who do you see the child as? "Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it." 1 Cor. 12:27
"And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence." Col. 1:18
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church." Col. 1:24
"Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind, 19and he loses connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow." Col. 2:18b-19
We are the body of Christ, the church. He, Jesus, the Head of the body, was born 2000 years ago. In a normal birth, the head comes out first, then the body, us, the church. We will soon be born of the Spirit. The WHOLE CHILD will finally be united wholly(and Holy) in Spirit.
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Post by venge on Oct 7, 2018 17:58:49 GMT -6
venge you know there is a difference between astronomy and astrology, right? ETA: I have had this discussion with you before and am bowing out. Someone else can try and convince you. Sigh— Sorry you feel that way.. I just don’t see it. Edit: I am not trying to be argumentative Natalie. I truly don’t understand how it is remotely scripture and how anyone can see this. I am trying to understand why some here all have a strong opinion on it. I don’t know anyone in any church that believes this or has mentioned it. Only here and random sites, so forgive me but it is foreign to me and since scripture doesn’t specifically state it, I am skeptical. Rightly so, as I need to trust scripture. So I am trying to understand you all but I have not seen scripture that points me to this yet. Is there scripture to support Revelation on it? If someone else wants to tell me, I appreciate it |
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Post by venge on Oct 7, 2018 18:02:51 GMT -6
Hello SK, Who do you see the child as? "Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it." 1 Cor. 12:27
"And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence." Col. 1:18
"Now I rejoice in my sufferings for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, which is the church." Col. 1:24
"Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind, 19and he loses connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow." Col. 2:18b-19
We are the body of Christ, the church. He, Jesus, the Head of the body, was born 2000 years ago. In a normal birth, the head comes out first, then the body, us, the church. We will soon be born of the Spirit. The WHOLE CHILD will finally be united wholly(and Holy) in Spirit.
Ok! So you don’t believe it’s Christ that is born here but the church? You said we will soon be born of spirit. Not following you there. We have spirits already unto Him. Can you specify? |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 7, 2018 19:09:43 GMT -6
venge , I know you aren't trying to be argumentative, and neither am I. I will try one last time, and this is all I got. God speaks through His creation (Romans 1), and He speaks through His Word. We look at His Word, and we look at the world around us. We look at Revelation, and we look at His creation. It all works together. The key being to be grounded in His Word and then look at the world. We are not looking at the world and trying to interpret His Word. I hope that I am making that clear. It's very different than astrology. Astronomy...God created the stars and the constellations (the Mazzaroth). Satan has corrupted it into astrology and the Zodiac. I believe God's story can be told in the stars but that knowledge was corrupted long ago. And people stopped telling the stories, so they were forgotten. Psalm 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. Amos 5:8 He who made the Pleiades and Orion
and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the LORD is His name. Job 38:31-32 Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children? And He made the stars, the constellations, the sun, and the moon to be signs. Yes, for the seasons, counting of months, but also for signs of His First Coming and His Second Coming. The Magi saw and followed His star. They studied astronomy and knew something was different about this Star. Most of us here read Rev 12:1-2 and we see a sign described as occurring using the sun, moon, and stars. A physical sign using the constellations that God created. A sign just as He said. “Luke 21:25 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars”. Rev 12:1 "...a woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." I believe people don't see the signs or don't talk about it because “astrology” is the first word that gets thrown at them. And there is a lack of knowledge. I personally have not said anything to anyone other than my husband and a couple of others because I go to a church that knows and preaches that we are in the end times. They are telling people to wake up and look around because Jesus is coming soon. What makes Rev 12:3-4 more difficult is that it's more vague. But verse 4 sounds very much like a meteor shower. Meteors that might cause fire on earth, like the examples Gary shared in his article. And this meteor shower could be a large one that happens to originate in the Dragon constellation. It makes those who are watching take notice. Yes, it is also a picture of the past...of Jesus being born, Satan trying to destroy Him (through Herod), and His ascension. But there is much more to it than that. God created the heavens, the constellations, their orbits, and He created signs to show that Jesus is returning soon. I believe that Rev 12:1-2 was last Sept. It's a sign that Jesus is coming soon. The second sign, if it is this meteor shower, represents the war in heaven and Satan being cast to the earth. The next is the birth of the child who is also described in Rev 2:25-27a "Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron..." The child is the church, the body of Christ, who will be caught up at the time of the rapture. We will rule with Christ; He has the rod of iron, but so does His Body.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 7, 2018 19:16:39 GMT -6
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:5-8
This is a sign(picture/image) of the whole child being born. At the time John the Apostle saw the sign, the Head, Jesus Christ was already born. The Head had already emerged, but the body had not. This is just an image of the whole story that God showed to John. Yes, I believe that the child is Jesus Christ AND us, His body! It's both! Why can't it be both? We are also described as Groom and Bride. How do you feel being a bride, venge? It doesn't matter, we won't be male or female when we become spirit, because:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
We must be able to see past the limits that our human minds put on things.
"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8
I believe this is what separates us from animals. Self-Awareness.
"Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:2-4
We have a spirit that gives us understanding...of things of the flesh! God gives us His Spirit so that we can have understanding of things of the Spirit! But, as Jesus told Nicodemus 'unless a man is born of the water(flesh) AND the Spirit, he cannot see/enter the Kingdom of God' We are given His Spirit so that we can understand basic things about Him, but we are not born of the Spirit. Not wholly Spirit, yet. I think Scott Clarke describes this very well, that we are actually conceived right now, in human terms, but we will be born when we change, at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, etc, etc. To say we are 'born again' is a catchy phrase, but I don't think it is completely accurate. Being 'conceived again' just doesn't have that ring to it, and saying that would probably get you more than a few raised eyebrows.
I hope that helps you understand my point of view. Praying for understanding of others' POV is fruitful, but takes time. I understand what you are saying about the dragons, but I think there are different dragons, however similar. And Satan has not been cast into the pit...yet, but Appollyon/Abbadon has been, and I believe he is one of these dragons that will drive willing bloodthirsty men(and women) to war with the saints and with Jesus Christ Himself. But trying to explain HOW I feel this way has yet come to me in a way I can explain in a post.
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 7, 2018 19:27:27 GMT -6
venge, I would also like to add that your insistence makes us explain our thoughts in finer detail...and that's a very good thing. Especially for anyone new coming to this forum and reading these threads.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 19:55:05 GMT -6
Just slightly off topic, but related. I was interested to learn that tropical storm 14 is expected to turn into tropical storm or possibly hurricane Michael and make landfall on Wednesday. It reminded me right away of Daniel 12:1. And at that time shall Michael stand up...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was...and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Just seems to be another sign of where we are on the timeline of events or just another coincidence! Welcome to the forums Kathy!! |
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Post by venge on Oct 8, 2018 7:15:10 GMT -6
venge , I know you aren't trying to be argumentative, and neither am I. I will try one last time, and this is all I got. God speaks through His creation (Romans 1), and He speaks through His Word. We look at His Word, and we look at the world around us. We look at Revelation, and we look at His creation. It all works together. The key being to be grounded in His Word and then look at the world. We are not looking at the world and trying to interpret His Word. I hope that I am making that clear. It's very different than astrology. Astronomy...God created the stars and the constellations (the Mazzaroth). Satan has corrupted it into astrology and the Zodiac. I believe God's story can be told in the stars but that knowledge was corrupted long ago. And people stopped telling the stories, so they were forgotten. Psalm 19:1-2 The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims His handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. Amos 5:8 He who made the Pleiades and Orion
and turns deep darkness into the morning and darkens the day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out on the surface of the earth, the LORD is His name. Job 38:31-32 Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades
or loose the cords of Orion? Can you lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season, or can you guide the Bear with its children? And He made the stars, the constellations, the sun, and the moon to be signs. Yes, for the seasons, counting of months, but also for signs of His First Coming and His Second Coming. The Magi saw and followed His star. They studied astronomy and knew something was different about this Star. Most of us here read Rev 12:1-2 and we see a sign described as occurring using the sun, moon, and stars. A physical sign using the constellations that God created. A sign just as He said. “Luke 21:25 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars”. Rev 12:1 "...a woman clothed with the sun, with moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." I believe people don't see the signs or don't talk about it because “astrology” is the first word that gets thrown at them. And there is a lack of knowledge. I personally have not said anything to anyone other than my husband and a couple of others because I go to a church that knows and preaches that we are in the end times. They are telling people to wake up and look around because Jesus is coming soon. What makes Rev 12:3-4 more difficult is that it's more vague. But verse 4 sounds very much like a meteor shower. Meteors that might cause fire on earth, like the examples Gary shared in his article. And this meteor shower could be a large one that happens to originate in the Dragon constellation. It makes those who are watching take notice. Yes, it is also a picture of the past...of Jesus being born, Satan trying to destroy Him (through Herod), and His ascension. But there is much more to it than that. God created the heavens, the constellations, their orbits, and He created signs to show that Jesus is returning soon. I believe that Rev 12:1-2 was last Sept. It's a sign that Jesus is coming soon. The second sign, if it is this meteor shower, represents the war in heaven and Satan being cast to the earth. The next is the birth of the child who is also described in Rev 2:25-27a "Only hold fast what you have until I come. The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron..." The child is the church, the body of Christ, who will be caught up at the time of the rapture. We will rule with Christ; He has the rod of iron, but so does His Body. Ok, just read what you wrote. I also appreciate you working with me. You had mentioned, You see this as a physical thing in the sky? I see it as describing the past only. From my notes: The imagery of a women clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet can be confusing, but Genesis clears this up when Joseph has a similar dream. It says, Joseph's dream mirrors the opening of Rev 12:1. In his dream, his father, mother and 11 brothers honor him greatly. This comes to pass when Joseph is made second to pharaoh. Here, the sun is referred to as his father and the moon as his mother. The 11 stars are his brothers. Likewise, with himself they are the 12 tribes of Israel. Some commentators such as Matthew Henry, Benson and Ellicott have said this represents the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ and the women is the Christian church. Other commentators such as Jamieson-Fausset-Brown and Meyer have it correct. For Romans 9:5 states: The great wonder in heaven is the creation of the women; namely Israel. She is clothed with the sun and moon under her feet because her father is God and he watches over her. His light as a sun is radiant and full of righteousness. The moon's light is dim and submits to the sun. It sits under her feet because dim light in darkness is not what God intended. God's light will brighten the world 24/7 where spiritual darkness never reigns. The crown of 12 stars that she wears is the 12 tribes of Israel. Just as the 11 stars and Joseph himself being a 12th in his dream would form this nation in later years. The verses you gave prove beyond a reasonable doubt that God made the heavens. I don't disagree. How could anyone disagree when God in Genesis made the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void. But my issue is that it doesn't show we are to look to those things for understanding. They are for us to understand seasons and times on planet earth. I don't see it saying we are to look at a constellation to understand prophecy. That is why I linked that commentator who said I am trying to tread carefully. Lastly, you mentioned it is a sign Jesus is coming again. I was under the impression that Pre Trib followed imminency and therefore because he can come at any time, you don't look for a specific time period. If you see this sign in the heavens back in Sept 2017 as a sign, everyone before 2017 cannot believe in imminency then right because you needed the sign first to know it would be soon. Unless, perhaps you weren't aware of the sign and now are? I googled sept 2017 sign and started reading websites to see what they said. Have you looked at Wikipedia for example? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revelation_12_sign_prophecyAll the sites that say it was not a real sign and why each gave their own ideas why they believe it was not. I wasn't gonna post them here, but I felt I should bring it up as I was researching it. |
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Post by Natalie on Oct 8, 2018 7:30:39 GMT -6
I think if you took it literally you could see it. I know there are many reasons people do not see it as a real sign.
I will try to gather my thoughts on imminency and the sign and post later.
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Post by venge on Oct 8, 2018 7:35:21 GMT -6
"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” John 3:5-8
This is a sign(picture/image) of the whole child being born. At the time John the Apostle saw the sign, the Head, Jesus Christ was already born. The Head had already emerged, but the body had not. This is just an image of the whole story that God showed to John. Yes, I believe that the child is Jesus Christ AND us, His body! It's both! Why can't it be both? We are also described as Groom and Bride. How do you feel being a bride, venge ? It doesn't matter, we won't be male or female when we become spirit, because:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
We must be able to see past the limits that our human minds put on things.
"But there is a spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding." Job 32:8
I believe this is what separates us from animals. Self-Awareness.
"Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of a fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:2-4
We have a spirit that gives us understanding...of things of the flesh! God gives us His Spirit so that we can have understanding of things of the Spirit! But, as Jesus told Nicodemus 'unless a man is born of the water(flesh) AND the Spirit, he cannot see/enter the Kingdom of God' We are given His Spirit so that we can understand basic things about Him, but we are not born of the Spirit. Not wholly Spirit, yet. I think Scott Clarke describes this very well, that we are actually conceived right now, in human terms, but we will be born when we change, at the last trump, in the twinkling of an eye, etc, etc. To say we are 'born again' is a catchy phrase, but I don't think it is completely accurate. Being 'conceived again' just doesn't have that ring to it, and saying that would probably get you more than a few raised eyebrows.
I hope that helps you understand my point of view. Praying for understanding of others' POV is fruitful, but takes time. I understand what you are saying about the dragons, but I think there are different dragons, however similar. And Satan has not been cast into the pit...yet, but Appollyon/Abbadon has been, and I believe he is one of these dragons that will drive willing bloodthirsty men(and women) to war with the saints and with Jesus Christ Himself. But trying to explain HOW I feel this way has yet come to me in a way I can explain in a post.
Thank you for your reply SK. How do I feel about bring a Bride? Well, I will not answer that to keep things calm =P I do understand your thought on the matter much better then previously. On Abaddon, the Koine is messenger, not angel. We interpret God's messengers as angels but in Matthew 11:10, Mark 1:2, Luke 7:27....referring to John the Baptist as his messenger. The same word used to describe angels. So, the word in Revelation properly would be messenger which could be an angel or a man. We understand what the connotation is if it is angelic. But, if it is a man, and this man is a messenger of the abyss, that is to say he is a messenger of the pit that houses evil spirits....he is responsible for loosing those wicked ones on humanity. That changes the understanding of the passage. It is interesting that literal locusts have no king as Proverbs 30:27 shows, I am not going to speak more on that because it is not the focus of the OP, but I don't see a link either way with the dragon. I will look more into it when I have time though. |
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2018 8:40:59 GMT -6
venge you know there is a difference between astronomy and astrology, right? ETA: I have had this discussion with you before and am bowing out. Someone else can try and convince you. Sigh— Sorry you feel that way.. I just don’t see it. Edit: I am not trying to be argumentative Natalie. I truly don’t understand how it is remotely scripture and how anyone can see this. I am trying to understand why some here all have a strong opinion on it. I don’t know anyone in any church that believes this or has mentioned it. Only here and random sites, so forgive me but it is foreign to me and since scripture doesn’t specifically state it, I am skeptical. Rightly so, as I need to trust scripture. So I am trying to understand you all but I have not seen scripture that points me to this yet. Is there scripture to support Revelation on it? If someone else wants to tell me, I appreciate it Venge - I realize Natalie responded to you and points out most of what I would so I wont be terribly redundant, but I want to ask you from my perspective, how do you NOT see it? You continue to state "scripture doesnt specifically state it" in a few threads yet its there in black & white in my bible, so maybe the vantage point you are taking is different from the many others who do see this? I feel the need to veer off course for a second to tie in some other information I would ask you to think through as I do feel it lends to the discussion or at least this has helped me sort through and consider perspective on things a bit differently lately...You do understand that before the bible was in existence all our ancestors had to go by was nature itself to see the evidence of God, right? The creation around them was sufficient enough to prove that someone created everything around them, plus there was eyewitness account of what was available for our ancestors. Adam & Eve spent time, physically with the Lord, learning from Him in the garden. It was likely just the two of them who had this time with the Lord, all alone learning from Him directly. I believe they told their children of the Lord, their experience with Him and how He had instructed them and how they disobeyed Him and were thrown from the Garden, do you think that is likely or possible/probable? I know that if that were me, I would make sure these things that happened (I WALKED AND TALKED WITH THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING) would be just about all I could talk about, especially to my offspring! These first hand accounts of the unwritten scripture were passed from their children to their grand-children and great grand-children. Adam was about 874 yrs old when Lamech was born. All of the history of the world had to be carried by word of mouth, to get to Noah. Then with everything completely wiped out Noah had been taught the ways of God by his family and walked with Him to the point he was the only one counted worthy to escape the flood. After this, seemingly the entire history had to be repeated with Noah and his family as the first people, where they told their children of how God spared them from the wickedness on the earth and the destruction of all living things. Afterwhich holy men & women who had faith in Him and what they believed He said to be true. Only when God provided this information to Moses did we eventually get to the point where we had written words of God. My point in stating these fairly obvious things is that if God made the stars, most likely instructed Adam & Eve about them, Moses recording that they are there for signs, seasons and days and years would you consider it at all possible that God showed our ancestors these signs before they became perverted by the enemy? Again I think Natalie hit the scriptures to support that the Lord made these but I wanted to see if you looked at it from another angle you may see it more clearly. Have you considered that in keeping yourself guarded against the wiles of the devil and your desire to keep yourself pure in heart has actually caused you to be missing out on some tremendous things that are in the scriptures regarding the heavens and what they mean to us today and perhaps more importantly to our ancestors? |
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Post by mike on Oct 8, 2018 8:46:22 GMT -6
Oh and Venge - its ok if you dont or cant see the sign from last year. EDIT BUT - instead of trying to convince others they are into astrology, maybe PM them your opinion or just remain silent on the topic? I'm not trying to be harsh with you and often enjoy your input as it challenges me to think on other things I may not have considered. But to insinuate that any here are practising astrology is not accurate. We are seeing certain things differently than you. From what I have read that you posted, you are considering the sign from Rev 12:1-2 as a dream or allegory only, not a literal sign and thats ok but others are seeing as a literal and others as both, which is ok too. |
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