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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2019 14:07:28 GMT -6
Interesting. My pattern agrees and is different from yours at the same time. I agree the rapture includes the 144k, 2 witnesses are removed and after that the marriage happens as you said. As the removal of the 2 witnesses happen before the 7th Trumpet when Christ starts to reign. Now, if he reigns, he does so in his millennial reign —not the time of Gentiles. But I place the marriage not in the mid point, but at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ when he “removes out of his kingdom all that work iniquity” and all things that offend. This is after the tribulation and after the time of Gentiles. Placing the bowls in the millennial reign of Christ. Thank you for explaining, helps me to understand your point of view. Why do you think Christians are the 144k when given Jewish tribal names? It seems that the 7 years are transitional years between the reign of Satan upon the earth and the reign of Christ upon the earth. Therefore, the mid point is the pivot where the transition of rule actually takes place and this is denoted by the calm (Rev. 8:1) between these two eras. Thus, on the pre-mid side Satan reeks havoc upon the earth and on the post-mid side Christ restores order to the earth beginning at Jerusalem. Ephraim is the tribe of adoption wherein all the tribes including the gentiles are welcome; Judah on the other hand is exclusive to everyone but the Jews. Secondly, Christ welcomes everyone, thus, Ephraim is more in line with Christ's teachings than Judah. Thus, Ephraim is the Christians and chosen to do the work; not Judah who still wants to sacrifice animals and so forth. Thus, any Jewish person who follows Christ is in the tribe of Ephraim by virtue of that person following Christ. That is, any Jewish person is a Jew until they accept Christ and then they are Christian; and to be Christian is to be in Ephraim that encompasses all the tribes and more. Christ doesn't restore order till after the Trumpets yet you say that before the 1st trumpet, order is restored? How can that be? If Ephraim is both Jew and gentile, why then is Judah gentile only? Just trying to understand your thought on it |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 27, 2019 21:11:33 GMT -6
It seems that the 7 years are transitional years between the reign of Satan upon the earth and the reign of Christ upon the earth. Therefore, the mid point is the pivot where the transition of rule actually takes place and this is denoted by the calm (Rev. 8:1) between these two eras. Thus, on the pre-mid side Satan reeks havoc upon the earth and on the post-mid side Christ restores order to the earth beginning at Jerusalem. Ephraim is the tribe of adoption wherein all the tribes including the gentiles are welcome; Judah on the other hand is exclusive to everyone but the Jews. Secondly, Christ welcomes everyone, thus, Ephraim is more in line with Christ's teachings than Judah. Thus, Ephraim is the Christians and chosen to do the work; not Judah who still wants to sacrifice animals and so forth. Thus, any Jewish person who follows Christ is in the tribe of Ephraim by virtue of that person following Christ. That is, any Jewish person is a Jew until they accept Christ and then they are Christian; and to be Christian is to be in Ephraim that encompasses all the tribes and more. Christ doesn't restore order till after the Trumpets yet you say that before the 1st trumpet, order is restored? How can that be? If Ephraim is both Jew and gentile, why then is Judah gentile only? Just trying to understand your thought on it Thanks Venge. I made a mistake about Judah and will go back to correct it. Judah excludes everyone but the Jews. No, I am saying that the process of restoring order begins with the two witnesses at Jerusalem. Because, Christ enforces his title claim to the earth beginning there. Then as things go the wicked will not repent and are destroyed. Thus, the point in time that Christ enforces his claim upon the earth is at the mid point. It is there that his servants are sent to the Earth's capitol city to begin the transfer of power. The Timeline: 1) Christ creates the earth 2) Adam and Eve choose to follow Satan in violation of God's law 3) Christ pays for the sins of mankind and reclaims the right to rule the earth 4) The Father determines that Christ can exercise his right to rule at the end of the 6th 1,000 year day 5) Christ sends his two witnesses to Jerusalem at the mid point of the 7 years of tribulation. Therefore, Christ's right to reign upon the earth begins at the mid point. 6) Christ sends the 144,000 throughout the earth beginning at the mid point; because, it is his right to rule the earth 7) After gathering the repentant souls from the earth the wicked are then destroyed at the end of the 7 years of Tribulation An Aside: 8) Since the two witnesses and the 144,000 are sent at the mid point, then the sealing marriage had to have occurred prior to that time; somewhere between the beginning of the 7 years and the mid point 9) Since the rapture precedes the marriage, and the marriage is pre-mid, then the rapture is pre-mid as well. It must be the case that Satan is trying to prevent Christ's rule by destroying the Christians. So as to avoid this, then Christ removes his people when the tribulation begins or shortly after. 10) Since the 144,000 gather souls after the mid-point, then that is the second rapture 11) Since Christ himself gathers souls at the end, at Jerusalem, then that is the third rapture Rev. 14:1, So it goes that the 144,000 are in the first rapture and they stand with Christ. These 144,000 are within the cloud of saints and are specifically the sickle in Rev. 14:14-19. Rev. 14:16, The mid-point of the seven years of tribulation and the second rapture that extends for 3.5 years as denoted in Rev. 14:16-19 Rev. 14:20, The end of the seven years of tribulation wherein Christ ends mankind upon the earth. It is here that the last repentant souls are taken; the third rapture. From the above it is then easy to see that the tribulation of saints via the beast causes the rapture resulting in the 144,000 standing with Christ at Rev. 14:1. Then we have the remaining 3.5 years of the ending 6th 1,000 year day from Rev. 14:1-13. Then we begin the 7th 1,000 year day with the gathering of souls and this is the mid point and extending for 3.5 years in Rev. 14:14-19 Last of all we have Christ himself standing at Jerusalem and destroying the inhabitants of the earth but taking those who choose to go with him. So in all the rapture extends throughout the entire seven year period of time; taking as many souls as possible. |
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Post by venge on Jul 29, 2019 6:51:09 GMT -6
boraddictYou said: No, I am saying that the process of restoring order begins with the two witnesses at Jerusalem. Because, Christ enforces his title claim to the earth beginning there. Then as things go the wicked will not repent and are destroyed. Thus, the point in time that Christ enforces his claim upon the earth is at the mid point. It is there that his servants are sent to the Earth's capitol city to begin the transfer of power. ——————— 1. Not all are destroyed because some change. If Christ enforced his claim to earth, he must be reigning per Rev 11 If that is the mid point, as you suggest, why would Christ start his millennial reign with 3.5 years of tribulation to test mankind and purge the wicked? Per Rev 11, it’s 42 months that the time of gentiles has. At the end of that 3.5 years, the 2 witnesses ascend to heaven. Following that in the 7th Trumpet, Christ reigns. How can you put Christ reign in the time of gentiles at a mid point when he reigns when the tribulation is over and his millennial reign has started?
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Post by boraddict on Jul 29, 2019 8:17:10 GMT -6
Yes, Chapter 11 is the problem. So in looking at Chapter 9 we appear to have the beginning (Rev. 9:1) and ending (Rev. 9:21) of the 7 year tribulation, except for the third woe, with the mid point at Rev. 9:13-14. Thus, Chapters 10 and 11 appear to run concurrently to Chapter 9 as follows:
Rev. 9:1-12, the beast rules the earth for 3.5 years, and this includes Chapters 7, 10, 13, 17, and the first half of 19
Rev. 9:13-14, mid point and the two witnesses of Chapter 11 are in Jerusalem
Rev. 9:15-21, destruction upon the armies of the beast and the ending of Chapter 19 (Rev. 19:11-21)
Lastly is the third woe of Chapter 11.
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Post by venge on Jul 29, 2019 11:33:44 GMT -6
Yes, Chapter 11 is the problem. So in looking at Chapter 9 we appear to have the beginning (Rev. 9:1) and ending (Rev. 9:21) of the 7 year tribulation, except for the third woe, with the mid point at Rev. 9:13-14. Thus, Chapters 10 and 11 appear to run concurrently to Chapter 9 as follows: Rev. 9:1-12, the beast rules the earth for 3.5 years, and this includes Chapters 7, 10, 13, 17, and the first half of 19 Rev. 9:13-14, mid point and the two witnesses of Chapter 11 are in Jerusalem Rev. 9:15-21, destruction upon the armies of the beast and the ending of Chapter 19 (Rev. 19:11-21) Lastly is the third woe of Chapter 11. Not following you on chapter 11 being a problem. Also, after the 6th trumpet is sound, you have an description of an event in ch. 10. In ch. 11, the story takes place at the beginning of the 2 witnesses that last from the begging of the time of gentiles to the end which marks the end when the 7th trumpet is blown. This blowing is what ties in ch. 10. When you see the 6th trumpet finish, there is an interlude much like what we see between the 6th and 7th seal. Ch. 10 happens after the 6th trumpet but it is part of the 7th trumpet. In regards to the third woe, what do you think it is? (I have my opinion on it but I want to hear yours) |
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Post by boraddict on Jul 30, 2019 0:07:18 GMT -6
Venge, I like that you mention the seals because that was on my mind after I wrote my last post. The 1st through 5th seals are clearly pre-mid; because, saints have been killed (Rev. 6:9-11) and given white robes and it is they who are at the marriage in Rev. 19:6 as the great multitude and this is supported by Rev. 7:9. Since the marriage is pre-mid, then seals 1 through 5 are pre-mid.
The question is then about the 6th seal as being pre or post mid. The language in Rev. 6:12-17 supports that the 6th seal is not pre-mid but post-mid; however, the links of Rev. 6:12 attach to the first woe as follows:
1) The Great Earthquake - Here we see language supporting that the 6th seal is at the end of the 7 years of tribulation via the Great Earthquake linking to Rev. 16:18 that is clearly the end of the 7 years of tribulation.
2) The Sun became black as sackcloth of hair - This links to Rev. 9:2 in that the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit, and Rev. 9:8 that they had hair as the hair of women. The clincher is the metaphor "smoke" that results from the Great Furnace. However, this smoke is as the smoke of the Great Furnace. That is, this smoke results from the burning of Satan upon mankind and not the burning of Christ upon mankind. Thus, Satan presents himself as the Christ; the Great Furnace (Gen. 15:17). Thus, the sun becoming black as sackcloth of hair is Satan presenting himself as Christ and his rebellion against God is indicated by long hair. That is, a sackcloth of hair is long hair like the long hair of women. Notice that in most art work depicting Christ they show him with long hair to support that he is in rebellion against Jewish law and tradition. Yet, Christ did not have long hair; he was not in rebellion but the Jews were.
Since the first woe is pre-mid then this evidence supports that the 6th seal is pre-mid.
3) The Moon became as blood - I realize that many may think that I am stretching but please consider that the devil drew 1/3rd of the stars of heaven (Rev. 12:4). That is, his tail that metaphorically means an illegal government drew 1/3rd of the stars of heaven. If the stars of heaven are those of whom Satan can draw from, then who does the moon represent but the followers of Christ. That is, in the metaphorical language, the woman clothed with the Sun is the church clothed with Christ. Additionally, the women having the moon at her feet is the woman having the members of the church doing missionary work. Remember the washing of feet that was so very important in the Gospel of John. That the apostles were to walk Christ's walk in saving souls. That covenant is metaphorically referenced here in Rev. 12:1 as the woman having the moon (Christ's followers) under her feet (converted by apostles via the washing of feet covenant). Therefore, the moon becoming blood in Rev. 6:12 represents the persecution of the saints as referenced in Rev. 13:7. Since the persecution of saints ends at the mid point because the 144,000 gather them from the earth at that time, then the 6th seal is pre-mid.
Next we have the 144,000 of Chapter 7 and the saints of the marriage and all of Chapter 7 is clearly pre-mid.
Therefore, both Chapters 6 and 7 are pre-mid chapters. Then we have the calm at the beginning of the 7th seal (Rev. 8:1) and this is the mid point of the 7 years of tribulation. Therefore, the second half of the 7 years of tribulation is the 7th seal.
Next is the expansion of the seals in Chapters 8 - 11. That is, Chapter 8 should be divided into two chapters as follows:
1) Rev. 8:1-5 is the entire 3.5 years of the post mid era
2) Rev. 8:6-13 are pre-mid
The first woe of Chapter 9 is pre-mid
The second woe of Chapter 9 is post-mid
Chapter 10 recaps the marriage (pre-mid) and then the two witnesses are at the mid point
The Third woe of Chapter 11 is post-mid
Post Script: The third woe is Christ coming to the earth. It is then that he destroys any remaining wicked.
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Post by venge on Jul 30, 2019 3:36:17 GMT -6
boraddictLet’s walk backwards, slowly. You say that the third woe is Christ coming to destroy the wicked. I agree. In Matthew, Christ says that he will send angels to gather out of HIS kingdom, all things that offend and destroy them. That is backed up in Rev 11 where Christ is shown reigning and the message he is about to destroy those that destroy the earth. But back in Matthew, he also said he would gather the wheat into his barn. Since we are that wheat, and this is the time that he mentioned, this can be the only time he spoke of as a rapture. If we are not condemned to wrath, that wrath comes when he reigns, it’s precisely the time we are changed and that is also backed up by the words in Rev 11 that state it is now the time to reward prophets, saints, everyone...the bema seat and the change. Now if Christ reigns, it cannot be mid Trib. He is reigning. It is the millennium kingdom. This is backed up in Matt 24 when Christ says immediately after the tribulation of those days and he describes the 6th seal. Placing tribulation before it. That places the 1st Trumpet to 7th Trumpet in a short span of the time of the gentiles. Now, if you go to Rev 20..it is said the 1st resurrection happens when Christ reigns. If he reigns at the 7th trumpet, the same time he’s about to destroy those that destroy the world, it is again backed up at that time that we are changed at an instant. That places the entire context outside a mid Trib and really out of tribulation and at the end of gentiles. The 2 witnesses finished, Christ starts to reign...many glorify God. He saves right up to the end.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 30, 2019 20:23:37 GMT -6
Venge, we have the third woe locked down at the end of the 7 years, right?
Where do you place the first and second woes? First at the beginning of the 7 years (pre mid) and the second near the end of the 7 years (post mid)?
The beast rises and this is the first woe.
The Savior's armies destroy the beast and his armies and this is the second woe.
Last of all the Savior destroys the earth surface and any remaining mankind and this is the third woe.
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Post by venge on Aug 1, 2019 7:09:17 GMT -6
Venge, we have the third woe locked down at the end of the 7 years, right? Where do you place the first and second woes? First at the beginning of the 7 years (pre mid) and the second near the end of the 7 years (post mid)? The beast rises and this is the first woe. The Savior's armies destroy the beast and his armies and this is the second woe. Last of all the Savior destroys the earth surface and any remaining mankind and this is the third woe. The third woe at the end of the gentiles. I don’t know if it’s 7 years or 3.5 years etc. But, I do know it’s the end of this age — the time of gentiles. The 1st and 2nd woes, I can’t say an exact placement because we aren’t given that info. The 2 witnesses are preaching in both. Obviously the First happens first but everything ends with second cause when the third is blown, we’re in the millennial kingdom. If I had to guess...6mo to 1yr. Leaving 5mo for the locust army. That’s 1.5 yrs out of 3.5 leaving 2 years for Trumpets 1-4 and the 6th seal. But that’s a guess and not scriptural. How is the 3rd woe at the end of the gentiles if Christ is reigning? When the 7th Trumpet is blown...Christ reigns therefore the gentiles time line ends from the 2nd woe till that 7th Trumpet is blown. As for the first woe, we don’t know if that is when the beast of the sea or beast of the earth rises. Most likely, the beast of the sea exists back in the 6th seal. It is possible for the beast of the earth to rise here but again, I’m not sure on that yet. The 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet which happens during Rev 11:7-14 with the 2 witnesses. There is nothing here to suggest Christ destroys the armies in the second woe. Rather, the suggestion is the beast captures Jerusalem and kills the 2 witnesses if you take it literal. Christ doesn’t destroy those that destroy the earth TILL the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11:18 that is why verse 19 explains hail as being added to the voices, thunders etc Hail destroys trees (people), wild vines (wicked preachers), weeds (wicked people) and such things. It’s his mighty storm, tempest and wrath meant for the children of disobedience to remove out of his kingdom all things that offend. |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 1, 2019 8:44:53 GMT -6
Venge, from your comment I am to conclude that you identify two beasts. I have the some conclusion as of a few days ago after I wrote my last post. You said: "As for the first woe, we don’t know if that is when the beast of the sea or beast of the earth rises. Most likely, the beast of the sea exists back in the 6th seal. It is possible for the beast of the earth to rise here but again, I’m not sure on that yet.
"
If the first woe is the rise of the beast as described in Chapters 6 and 13, and the second woe is the destruction of that beast, then the beast that kills the two witnesses is the second beast. This would mean that the third woe is the destruction of the second beast.
1st beast rises, 1st woe, world stage
1st beast destroyed, 2nd woe, world stage
2nd beast rises, regional
2nd beast destroyed, 3rd woe, world stage
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Post by venge on Aug 1, 2019 9:07:43 GMT -6
Venge, from your comment I am to conclude that you identify two beasts. I have the some conclusion as of a few days ago after I wrote my last post. You said: "As for the first woe, we don’t know if that is when the beast of the sea or beast of the earth rises. Most likely, the beast of the sea exists back in the 6th seal. It is possible for the beast of the earth to rise here but again, I’m not sure on that yet. " If the first woe is the rise of the beast as described in Chapters 6 and 13, and the second woe is the destruction of that beast, then the beast that kills the two witnesses is the second beast. This would mean that the third woe is the destruction of the second beast. 1st beast rises, 1st woe, world stage 1st beast destroyed, 2nd woe, world stage 2nd beast rises, regional 2nd beast destroyed, 3rd woe, world stage Daniel states that the 4 beast that rise from the sea are kingdoms. Each kingdom is ruled by a man that comes from the earth. The first woe may be linked to Rev 13. That is a good possibility that I acknowledge. The 2nd woe does not describe the kingdom of the sea being destroyed. The beast of the sea and earth are not destroyed till After Christ starts to reign at the 7th Trumpet. In Rev 19:17 it shows the removal of them but it happens after the marriage. This places their destruction in the bowl judgments which makes sense they are destroyed in his wrath when he reigns and not before he reigns in the time of the gentiles |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 1, 2019 21:52:10 GMT -6
venge , great. So we can reasonably conclude that the first woe is at the beginning of the 7 years, correct? Following are events that occur at the beginning of the 1st woe: 1) the 5th angel sounds (Rev. 9:1) 2) the bottomless pit opens (Rev. 9:2) 3) the smoke as of a great furnace begins (metaphors) 4) the sun and air are darkened (metaphors) 5) out of the smoke comes locusts (metaphors) 6) the locusts can only hurt those whom do not have the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev. 9:4) 7) the locusts torment for five months Please notice that in Rev. 9:4 the locusts are commanded to "not hurt" one group (KJV). Thus, the locusts can hurt the other group. Then in Verse 5 we see that the hurt is torment. Thus, those with the seal of God are not tormented during this 5 month period of time. The question then becomes, To what does the 5 month period of time pertain. Since the beast torments the population of mankind for a number of years, then it is reasonable that the 5 months refers to those of the sealed. Thus, if those who are tormented can not find death for 5 months (Rev. 9:6) then what does that say about those that are not tormented? Perhaps the opposite? That is, those that are sealed are searching for Christ to come and after five months they find that life they are searching for. Thus, it may be the case that the rapture is 5 months from the rise of the beast that took place at the beginning of the 1st woe. Secondly, the second woe is not connected to the 5 month period of time because the beast rules the earth for more than 5 months. So it is that from the 1st woe in Chapter 9, there is a considerable amount of time that passes before we arrive at the second woe. Third, the four angels that precede the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1 are referenced in the second woe at Rev. 9:14-15. Since these four angels that precede the fifth are told to wait at Rev. 7:1-2, then the angel of Rev. 7:2 is the 5th angel. Since the 5th angel begins his work at Rev. 9:1, then Rev. 7:2 is in time with Rev. 9:1. Thus, the first woe begins at Rev. 7:1. So we see that Chapter 7 is 5 months in length.
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Post by venge on Aug 2, 2019 8:32:13 GMT -6
venge , great. So we can reasonably conclude that the first woe is at the beginning of the 7 years, correct? Following are events that occur at the beginning of the 1st woe: 1) the 5th angel sounds (Rev. 9:1) 2) the bottomless pit opens (Rev. 9:2) 3) the smoke as of a great furnace begins (metaphors) 4) the sun and air are darkened (metaphors) 5) out of the smoke comes locusts (metaphors) 6) the locusts can only hurt those whom do not have the seal of God in their foreheads (Rev. 9:4) 7) the locusts torment for five months Please notice that in Rev. 9:4 the locusts are commanded to "not hurt" one group (KJV). Thus, the locusts can hurt the other group. Then in Verse 5 we see that the hurt is torment. Thus, those with the seal of God are not tormented during this 5 month period of time. The question then becomes, To what does the 5 month period of time pertain. Since the beast torments the population of mankind for a number of years, then it is reasonable that the 5 months refers to those of the sealed. Thus, if those who are tormented can not find death for 5 months (Rev. 9:6) then what does that say about those that are not tormented? Perhaps the opposite? That is, those that are sealed are searching for Christ to come and after five months they find that life they are searching for. Thus, it may be the case that the rapture is 5 months from the rise of the beast that took place at the beginning of the 1st woe. Secondly, the second woe is not connected to the 5 month period of time because the beast rules the earth for more than 5 months. So it is that from the 1st woe in Chapter 9, there is a considerable amount of time that passes before we arrive at the second woe. Third, the four angels that precede the 5th angel of Rev. 9:1 are referenced in the second woe at Rev. 9:14-15. Since these four angels that precede the fifth are told to wait at Rev. 7:1-2, then the angel of Rev. 7:2 is the 5th angel. Since the 5th angel begins his work at Rev. 9:1, then Rev. 7:2 is in time with Rev. 9:1. Thus, the first woe begins at Rev. 7:1. So we see that Chapter 7 is 5 months in length. Ok, let me try to answer some of your questions. No. I don't know if this time is a literal 7 years or a literal 3.5 years. That is, I don't know with 100% certainty. But, it is my opinion that the 1st Woe is not at the beginning. It would not make sense that way. To me, the Lord comes when darkness comes, when the clouds cover the land. Scripture is consistent in that the Day of the Lord comes when certain things happen. Does that mean the Day of the Lord and the time of the gentiles are the same? Not necessarily. Theer are over 80 verses in the Bible about this day. In each, it describes darkness and not light, judgment, justice, punishing the proud, stars falling from heaven etc and the only place we find that is the 6th seal. So I would place the beginning most likely at the very least, the 6th Seal. If not the 6th, than the 5th. The 5th because it backs up the pubishment for the 1st Trumpet. But, it is possible the 5th is not future if its considered that the martyrs in the 5th are not avenged in the 1st Trumpet from the 5th seal to the 1st Trumpet but from Christ to the 1st Trumpet or from Adam to the 1st Trumpet. Then the 6th seal would still be the start line. Then you said: This is where it gets fun. Look at this verse: The locust are not aloud to hurt vegatation. This is labeled as grass, anything green or any tree. But right there it switches and then says "but only those men"! It equates wicked mankind with vegatation! It is because what appears as vegatation is language the Israelites used to describe people and how they were. The Bible says all flesh is like grass. Why is that? Because when the grass is green and we have prosperity and joy in our life we grow. We even bare flowers and seeds and blossom. We are watered by God and the hail nor the heat (fire) destroys us. But when the flower fades and the grass turns yellow and dies....what is left but unhappiness and sorrow? So all flesh is grass and in Revelation 9, it equates the 2 together. Otherwise, you must ask yourself, why would the locust not want to hurt the grass or any green thing if all green grass was already destroyed in Rev 8:7 not to mention the equation of wicked men with vegetation. You then said: That is because the one who are sealed are kept from the hour of temptation and are spiritually awake. They are not concerned with the fall of Babylon or the ability to buy and sell. Why does the sting of the scorpian not effect the 144k? Have you thought about that? They know God's word and they are faithful. How does that stop a sting? The scorpion was also described in the Bible as wicked men. And the Bible also states that God's people are the head because he gives us truth but the tail is falsehood. So we have wicked men spewing from their mouths falsehood and lies. The scorpion was also considered by them to be part of the family of serpents. If you understand the connotation there, we are talking about vile men contrary to God. Look at Luke 10:19 Serpents and scorpions are equated with the enemies of God. Look at Ezekiel 2:6 The briers are thorns are described as wicked men and this is linked with scorpions here as well. Notice that God says to not be afraid of them and that they (thorns and briers and scorpions) are a rebellious house, Hebrews 6:8 talks about the thorns and briers as having no fruit and as wicked men. So these wicked men posed as locust with a sting of falsehood to torment those that are spiritually dead will fall because they did not love the truth but loved the dark instead. The torment of these is leading them farther away from God. Remember, Babylon was just destroyed. The kingdom lost all its vanities and nice things. Imagine a total stock market collapse, amazon collaspe, all stores collasps, all trade collapse. The Gov cannot pay its employees and neither can business. The dollar drops to worthlessness and people panic. The man of sin comes in and says I can fix it. If you do X and Y and Z, we can buy and sell again. But remember what happened to Jericho? God said Jericho must be destroyed and it was. But it was also said that if any man rebuild it, he will be cursed. The man of sin is trying to rebuild what God destroyed (Mystery Babylon). Then you said: Yes, the 2nd woe is not connected to the 5 month period of torment by the locust because the last verse in the 5th Trumpet says: That "considerable amount of time" that you mentioned is only 5 months. Its a short amount of time which shows how fast the 4th Kingdom is moving to make things happen. This is one reason why it is like "unto a leopard". Its very quickly moving. Lastly, you said: I don't think they are the same. 4 of the angels in this Trumpet are in the great river euphrates. The other 4 angels are in the 4 corners of the world. That symbolizes that they are holding back war world wide. The 4 angels in Rev 7 are told hold back the wind world wide TILL the sealing happens. That happens and we move to the 1st Trumpet. Once the sealing takes place, the winds are no longer restrained. That is why 7 other angels are given Trumpets and are permitted to blow them on trees, grass, the earth etc. Therefore, the 1st woe does not begin at Rev 7:1 as you said because until the 4rth Trumpet finishes, the angels says in Rev 8:13 The 3 Woes have not sounded yet. They have not started nor have they finished. The text relates that how the 1st 4 Trumpets brought God's justice to avenge his saints. But mankind doesnt see it that way. They curse God by denying his justice and wanting what he had destroyed back. The woe's are announced because mankind thinks its bad now with the loss of prosperity, security and things like this but the 3 woes will hurt more. Because it is a time of testing. Only those truly in Christ will be able to escape temptation. This is why he said he will keep us from it. Its not a physical removal. It is a spiritual removal. With Christ, and not ourselves, as the helm of our life -- we have all that we need. That is why in Rev 14:12 when Babylon does fall and it speaks of how people react and the mark being setup to bring Babylon back, God tells us an important key in verse 12. That is why in Rev 3:10, God explains it to the Philadelphian church. Those "IN" Christ are protected. Because you made HIM your high tower, your fortress, your shield and buckler, your God. You built your house on a rock with a strong foundation and that foudnation is unmovable and cannot be tossed into the sea. That foundation (Christ) is what keeps you from that hour of temptation. I would not say Rev 7 is 5 months duration. Some believe that the chapter is consecutive and runs into the next chapter. I do not. Verses 1-8 run consecutive and naturally follow the progression of events from the 6th seal. Verses 9-17 do not. This is because the way it is written take place at different times. For example: When we read the Trumpets or Bowls, there is a progression. 1 and then 2 and then 3 and so on. But within the book, we also have interludes and preludes and more information about a particular thing that explains it in more detail making it not a separate event but telling us more on it. So, Rev 8 is a progression to Rev 9 which follows it. But Rev 10 is not. Rev 10 is more information on the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11:15-18. Rev 11:1-6 encompass the beginning of this whole thing so the 2 witnesses could start back in the 6th seal or the 7th seal or the 1st trumpet. But they do not start before the 7th trumpet. Some chapters fit into place and explain things chronologically, but not consecutively. So, in Rev 11 the 2 witnesses precede the 7th trumpet chronologically but the 7th trumpet doesn't come right after their start but it does follow the 2nd woe. So there are breaks in time. This is what I believe happens in Rev 7. Its chronological but not consecutive. The same things happens in Rev 14. You have the 144k sealed, then Babylon's fall followed by the mark setup and then the harvest. God gives us the time table chronologically but the events (6 and 7th seal, the Trumpets) are not here. Its not consecutive. Hope that makes sense to you. |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 3, 2019 10:16:26 GMT -6
Alright, let's work with the assumption that Chapter 14 is chronological.
1) Rev. 14:1-5, the 144,000 are with Christ and this is Chapter 7
2) This is filler between items 1 and 3, Rev. 8:1-12
3) Rev. 14:6-7, this is the angel of Rev. 8:13
4) the 1st woe of Chapter 9 is here
5) Rev. 14:8, Babylon is fallen and this is Chapter 18
6) Rev. 14:9-12, the followers of the beast and this is Chapter 13 that links to Chapter 17. This Chapter 14 chronological order seems to indicate that Babylon falls to a natural death and then the beast rises to devour her. If this is correct then the ensign (Isa. 18:3) is the natural death of Babylon. It is here in Chapter 13 that the persecution of the saints begin. It must be the case that Babylon falls and then Chapter 14 begins.
7) Rev. 14:13-16, here we have the link at Verse 13 to Rev. 19:9 so this set of verses goes to Chapter 19 (vv. 19:1-10). Here we see that the saints arrive at their destination. So the rapture must have taken place before or during item numbers 1-6.
8) the 2nd woe of Chapter 9 is here and this links to Chapter 19 at Verses 19:11-21.
Venge, do you agree to this point?
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Post by venge on Aug 4, 2019 12:52:40 GMT -6
Alright, let's work with the assumption that Chapter 14 is chronological. 1) Rev. 14:1-5, the 144,000 are with Christ and this is Chapter 7 2) This is filler between items 1 and 3, Rev. 8:1-12 3) Rev. 14:6-7, this is the angel of Rev. 8:13 4) the 1st woe of Chapter 9 is here 5) Rev. 14:8, Babylon is fallen and this is Chapter 18 6) Rev. 14:9-12, the followers of the beast and this is Chapter 13 that links to Chapter 17. This Chapter 14 chronological order seems to indicate that Babylon falls to a natural death and then the beast rises to devour her. If this is correct then the ensign (Isa. 18:3) is the natural death of Babylon. It is here in Chapter 13 that the persecution of the saints begin. It must be the case that Babylon falls and then Chapter 14 begins. 7) Rev. 14:13-16, here we have the link at Verse 13 to Rev. 19:9 so this set of verses goes to Chapter 19 (vv. 19:1-10). Here we see that the saints arrive at their destination. So the rapture must have taken place before or during item numbers 1-6. 8) the 2nd woe of Chapter 9 is here and this links to Chapter 19 at Verses 19:11-21. Venge, do you agree to this point? Just got out of Church and will try to answer. I will put your statements in "red". Yes, I believe that to be so. Not sure I understand this question. I break Rev 14 into 6 parts. Rev 14:6-13 matches Rev 8:5-13 Rev 14:6-7 says, Yet Rev 8:13 says, I do not believe them to be the same. Not at all. For one, Each message is different. Two, the message in Rev 8 comes after Babylon's fall whereas the message in Rev 14:6-7 comes before it. I disagree. I believe a part of the first woe is actually Rev 15:9 which follows the fall of Babylon. This models Rev 9:1-12 where the locust come out who have a leader and they start to torment man with falsehood. If Babylon fell and the merchants of the earth and everyone that buys and sell's cries out because they cannot anymore, this is the time after the fall that the man of sin creates a system where you may buy and sell with his mark. An alternative way even though God destroyed the old way through Babylon's fall. Man wishes to raise it up again. Yes as well as Rev 17:1-6 and of course...where would you find this in the seals or trumpets? =P It must be in one of those to understand the chronological portion of events. It is my opinion that the fall of Babylon is in the first 4 Trumpets. It is there that a great unmovable mountain such as Babylon would be moved and tossed into the sea to never return symbolizing its defeat to never rise again. That is the exact image we get in those early Trumpets. Placing the Fall in the first 4 Trumpets right after the sealing and therefore backing up Revelation 14's chronological, but not consecutive, structure. Yes, Chapter 13 gives more info regarding Rev 14:9-12. And this links to Ch. 17:8-13. I don't see how you mean Babylon will die a natural death. I don't think the persecution starts at Rev 13 per se as the 5th seal martyrs are persecuted and die. Christians are already persecuted today and die. I would rather say it is here at Babylon's fall and Ch. 13 that we see the hour of temptation. We shall always have persecution the entire time. Chapter 14 does not begin after Babylon's fall because in Ch. 14, Babylon falls in verse 8. Verses 1-6 detail the 144k. Babylon cannot fall BEFORE the sealing of the 144k. The key is verse 6. =P And you are correct about some of the things here between Rev 14:13-16 with the marriage/rapture. Rev 19:6 says, The Lord reigns and it is at THIS TIME, when he reigns, that we see this great multitude in heaven. We know from Rev 11, that the Lord reigns at the 7th trumpet so we know the marriage comes after the 7th Trumpet is blown and he starts his reign which coincides with This is backed up with Rev 20:5 We reign WITH Christ when he starts to reign. That is the 1st resurrection/rapture. At the 7th trumpet when the marriage is about to take place. This again is backed up in Matthew 25:10 The bridegroom comes for us for the marriage and the marriage happens at the 7th trumpet when he reigns and when he reigns we reign with him. But after this the door is shut. So when is the door shut? Right after the 7th Trumpet we have another interlude of events before the bowls and after the Trumpets. This is Ch. 15, and if you notice in verses 7-8 that the door is now closed to destroy them that destroy the earth No man, was able to enter through the door because it is now shut. Back in Moses time, whenever the cloud and the glory of the Lord filled the temple...no man could enter it till the cloud lifted up. And so it is at the end of the age. This traps all the wicked left behind to go thru the wrath of God in the bowl judgments. I take Rev 19:11-21 in the bowl judgments when Christ reigns as it is stated in verse 6 he reigns and that in verse 16 it is said: And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. |
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