Who Are The 24 Elders?

venge
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Mar 29, 2019 13:54:39 GMT -6

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Post by venge on Mar 29, 2019 13:54:39 GMT -6

Mar 28, 2019 8:29:31 GMT -6 Natalie said:

Here's some verses I pulled together awhile back while studying this:

The Throne Room – reflected in what God told Moses to build

Hebrews 8:5 “They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, ‘See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.’” (Exodus 25:40)

And this is an excellent point Natalie. The throne room was already furnished before the law was given. In it housed God on his throne followed by angels ministering to him and Cherubims/Seraphims. If the 24 elders represents the 24 created that were also to worship, than we can say that the 24 elders already existed back in Moses's time as a copy of the earthly type that was made when the laws were given as they already existed in Heaven making them not raptured in the sense of our future reward.
I don't think its important to know who they are, or what they are. That doesn't change the fact that both the elders and the living beings worship and sing the same song. They cannot both be redeemed.

That is a fact that even John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary has even shown himself as a Pre Trib believer found HERE
Here is a copy of it. Under the Living Creatures Worshipping the lamb heading, Walvoord says:

In the comment on Revelation 4:4 it was observed that there is difference of opinion as to the identity of the twenty-four elders.
In 5:9-10 additional light is cast upon their character. If the text of the Authorized Version is correct, the twenty-four elders in their new song declare that God has redeemed them by His blood out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation and has made them kings and priests.
If the twenty-four elders are actually redeemed by the blood of Christ, it is clear that they could not be angels but must be redeemed men.

He continues:

Some ancient versions of Scripture give a different rendering. In keeping with this variation in text, the song herein recorded is translated in the American Standard Version of 1901 as follows:

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon the earth.

If this latter rendering is the proper one, it leaves undetermined whether the twenty-four elders are men or angels. It records only that they pay tribute to the Lamb, as the One who was slain and who purchased men from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation.
Such a song would be worthy of angels as well as redeemed men.

The fact that there is a variation in texts in this passage, however, by no means determines beyond question that the text used by the Authorized Version is incorrect. This is still debatable, although most textual scholars of the twentieth century prefer the revised text.

140 Even if the revised text is accepted, however, though it removes absolute proof of the human origin of the twenty-four elders, it does not constitute specific proof that they are angels. It merely leaves the matter open. In view of the fact that the twenty-four elders are pictured as having crowns of gold and clothed in white raiment, as if they are already a complete people judged and rewarded, the weight of evidence still is in favor of considering them as representatives of the church, the Body of Christ. The alternative suggestion that they are angels, however, is possible.

So if the 24 elders are men and are redeemed, why are they singing the song with angels who are not raptured and are not redeemed.

The song of redemption recorded in this chapter would be entirely normal for saints but would be rather unusual if the angels were involved. Nowhere else in the Bible are angels pictured as singing since sin entered the world

And angels are involved. They are the 4 living creatures singing this song. It is odd and out of place, they are not redeemed nor will they reign on earth with Christ. This is what makes the authorized version of these verses not compatible with sound scripture. This is why the American standard version is correct. They are singing for us, the ones on earth that triumph with Christ. We are not to rule with Christ in heaven as elders. We are to rule earth with Christ as priest and kings for 1k years.

NIV: You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
NLT: And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth."
ESV: and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.
BSB: You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.
BLB: and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth
NASB: You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth
CSB: You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth
CEV: You let them become kings and serve God as priests, and they will rule on earth."

GNT: You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth
HCSB: You made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on the earth
ISV: You made them a kingdom and priests for our God, and they will reign on the earth.
NET: You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."
NHEB: and made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign on earth
DBT: and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.

Now, I didn't post them all but there are ALOT more.

venge
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Mar 29, 2019 14:26:20 GMT -6

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Post by venge on Mar 29, 2019 14:26:20 GMT -6

Mar 27, 2019 10:10:43 GMT -6 glennjohn said:

Aug 3, 2018 15:00:42 GMT -6 venge said:

You first state the 24 elders are human. It is in bold and underlined and has no source to make it a fact therefore only ones opinion.

If we are to interpret scripture with scripture, the term presbuteros, the word for "elders" is used 54 times. Every single time the term refers to men.

You showed verse 8 of the KJV but neglected the fact that the NIV in this instance has been said by many who translate Koine that the NIV is a better translation for the passage making it more accurate. It’s translation would not use US and WE but THEY and THEM. This would show the elders are not raptured.

I assume you are talking about verses 9 and 10, not verse 8. In every instance in the Majority text with exception of the Codex Alexandrinus, it is translated "us" in verse 9. The Alexandrian Codex has it left blank.

I wanted to add, not to get into a debate of textual criticisms or translations, but I thought this was neat from Wikipedia in regards to Codex Alexandrinus:

It was the first manuscript of great importance and antiquity of which any extensive use was made by textual critics,[31] but the value of the codex was differently appreciated by different writers in the past. Wettstein created a modern system of catalogization of the New Testament manuscripts. Codex Alexandrinus received symbol A and opened the list of the NT uncial manuscripts. Wettstein announced in his Prolegomena ad Novi Testamenti Graeci (1730) that Codex A is the oldest and the best manuscript of New Testament, and should be the basis in every reconstruction of the New Testament text.[105] Codex Alexandrinus became a basis for criticizing the Textus Receptus (Wettstein, Woide, Griesbach).

It was noted from other scholars that between Codex A and the majority text which some call the Byzantine text, that because Greek language was common during that time, the Greek Byzantine text was used more so in favor in regards to the Gospels. But that does not include Revelation with their critique which we are debating with the text. Not only that, but the scripture in Rev 5:10 does not make sense when read in the majority text. But in the Codex A, the text does makes sense and explains the worship the elders and angels do that His people will be rewarded with Him.

rt
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 5, 2019 8:53:22 GMT -6 Natalie and venge like this

Quote

Post by rt on Apr 5, 2019 8:53:22 GMT -6

Mar 28, 2019 8:29:31 GMT -6 Natalie said:

Here's some verses I pulled together awhile back while studying this:

The Throne Room – reflected in what God told Moses to build

Hebrews 8:5 “They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, ‘See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain.’” (Exodus 25:40)

Rev 1:4, 3:1, 4:5 seven spirits of God before the throne described as seven torches of fire
Exodus 25:31-40 the golden lampstands with 7 lamps

Rev 5:8 golden bowls of incense – prayers of the saints
Exodus 30:1-10 an altar is made on which to burn incense

Rev 4:6 a sea like glass before the throne
Exodus 30:17-21 a bronze basin of water

Rev 4:2 a throne
Exodus 25:10-22 the ark with mercy seat where God would meet with Moses

Rev 4:6-8 four living creatures – like a lion, like an ox, like a man, like an eagle
Ex 25:17-22 the mercy seat has two Cherubim
Numbers 2:1-30 based on tradition, the flags of the tribes closest to the tent of meeting

Rev 4:4-11, 5:6-8, 11:16, 19:4 the 24 elders on their thrones
1 Chronicles 24:1-6 the 24 priestly divisions

Who might the 24 around the throne be? Like a heavenly sanhedrin (but also like priests in that they offer bowls of incense):
Job 15:8 “Have you listened in the council of God?”
Jeremiah 23:18 “For who among them has stood in the council of God to see and to hear His word...”
Psalm 82:1 “God has taken His place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods [heavenly beings] He holds judgment”
Daniel 7:9-10 “As I looked, thrones were placed...the court sat in judgment”
Psalm 89:5-7 “a God greatly to be feared in the council of the holy ones”
Isaiah 24:23 “For the LORD of hosts reigns on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and His glory will be before His elders.” (consider context)

Who wears white?
The 24 elders, angels (Matt 28:3), the Ancient of Days (Dan 7:9), priests, the Bride (Rev 19:8), the army in Rev 19:14 (who may or may not be the same as the Bride)

Who wears crowns?
(list is not exhaustive)
Phil 4:1 Philippian believers
1 Thes 2:19 Thessalonian believers
Rev 4:4+ elders
Rev 6:2+ rider on white horse
Rev 9:7+ locusts from abyss
Rev 12:1+ woman with 12 stars

Hi Natalie,

It looks like you make the association of the earthly tabernacle with the heavenly indicating that what John sees in the Revelation is reflected in what God told Moses to do to construct the earthly tabernacle.

The high priests, who wore a golden crown with the words "holy to the Lord" inscribed on it, entered the earthly Holy place once a year on the day of atonement, wearing only their white linen garment and the crown of gold and offered incense before the mercy seat . There were at the time of Christ 24 family divisions of priests, who on a rotating schedule provided a high priest to serve in the temple.

Also we are talking about crowns of gold- there are only three places where golden crowns are mentioned in the New Testament- all in the revelation, Revelation 4:4- the 24 elders, Revelation 9:7- the locusts from the pit, and Revelation 14:14, the one like a son of man. These crowns seem to designate some kind of authority.

I think the more glaring event that helps us identify who the priests are or are not is what John witnesses here:

Revelation 5:1–10
1 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”
3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.
4 Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;
5 and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8 When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
10 “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”

Is this a future event or an event from John's past?

I believe it is the latter. John witnesses the inauguration of the New Covenant hence the New Song that declares what the Lamb had just accomplished. He arrives into the heavenly tabernacle holy place BEFORE Christ the Lamb is slain and enters into it.

Hebrews 9:1–28
1 Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place.
3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies,
4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;
5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
6 Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship,
7 but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance.
8 The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,
9 which is a symbol for the present time. Accordingly both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make the worshiper perfect in conscience,
10 since they relate only to food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until a time of reformation.
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh,
14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.
17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
20 saying, “THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU.”
21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

And if I am correct, that what John witnesses is the inauguration of the New Covenant era, then there is no way that the elders can be human, let alone be the raptured church, since Christ was the firstborn of the dead- the first to be resurrected. (Col 1:18, Rev 1:5)

Whether you see the new song as saying them or us, it does not matter a bit, because Christ cleansed the heavenly tabernacle (vs 23) and the things in it (including the 24 elders) too!

Last Edit: Apr 5, 2019 9:00:13 GMT -6 by rt

Natalie
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 5, 2019 11:20:16 GMT -6

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Post by Natalie on Apr 5, 2019 11:20:16 GMT -6

Yes, I think that God showed Moses some sort of blueprint, if you will, and so what is in heaven has earthly representations. John is seeing those heavenly things. So, I see the elders as being present at the time of Moses (and probably before).

And even if I don't agree with your interpretation that it is a past event, I see where it could be a valid one.

I think there are multiple things in Rev that can be interpreted in different ways, and I could be wrong on my interpretation, but it makes sense to me scripturally. And interesting thought that He cleansed the heavenly tabernacle AND everything there. I hadn't really thought of it that way.

Is 26:3 You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.

jp
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 19, 2019 9:38:44 GMT -6

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Post by jp on Apr 19, 2019 9:38:44 GMT -6

Aug 2, 2018 14:54:49 GMT -6 Gary said:

I had a bit of trouble classifying this one, but "New Jerusalem" makes sense in my mind as the location of the Throne Room scene (:

www.unsealed.org/2018/08/who-are-24-elders.html

The 24 elders are the Church of Philadelphia, who are the same as the wise virgins/servants in the Gospels.

Rev 3:8 = Matt 25:10 = Rev 4:1

The Messiah promises ONLY the Church of Philadelphia to be kept from the hour of trial, and that is why we only see the wise virgins enter the open door in heaven.

Rev 3:8 = Rev 4:1
Rev 3:10 = Rev 4:4 kept from hour of trial = removed prior to seals
Rev 3:11 = Rev 4:4 only the Church of Philadelphia is promised an actual crown = crown of gold (the rest of the Church only has palm branches Rev 7:9)
Rev 3:12 = Rev 4:4 the Church of Philadelphia is promised to be pillars in New Jerusalem (pillar just means a strong important position) = Thrones

The parable of the 10 vigins:

Virgin implies that they only worship the Messiah.
Lamp in the Greek means a burning torch, which points to them being in the Word (Lamp unto my feet).
They are watching and waiting.

But only half are allowed entry. The translation into the English is very misleading in this parable, but a long story short, the oil is not olive oil for a lamp. The wise virgins brought their wedding attire and ornaments to adorn their vessel. The foolish virgins only showed up with their under garments (salvation).

Jeremiah 2
32 “Can a virgin forget her ornaments,
Or a bride her attire?
Yet My people have forgotten Me
Days without number.

Proverbs 1, Rev 3 and 14 tell us how to obtain the ornaments and wedding garments.

Proverbs 1
8 My son, hear the INSTRUCTION of thy father, and forsake not the LAW of thy mother:

9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 14 tells us what the word of patience is:

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, AND the FAITH of Jesus.

The Church of Philadelphia/wise virgins keep the commandments and faith, not just one or the other. The number 24 is misleading, because it is a poor translation. 20 is pointing us to the 2 ten thousands around the Throne, and 4 just means the whole, as in 4 quarters make a whole. The Scripture is saying that the elders are the myriads of myriads part around the Throne, and the angles are the thousands of thousands in Rev 5:11 = Daniel 7:10. Daniel shows us that the angels are the thousands of thousands, because they are "attending" the Messiah, while the myriads of myriads were standing, until it was time for the court to sit = Rev 4:4 sitting on their thrones.

Meaning, when the open door occurs in the very near future, ONLY a very small portion of True believers will enter, the rest will be saying, "Messiah, Messiah, open for us," and He is going to say, I do not recognize you, because you lack MY Torah (ornaments and wedding attire), depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS.

I have been trying a long time to find the exact number for myriads, so i can have an idea of the size of the Church of Philadelphia, but the only number i found is 10,000, so if it is 10,000x10,000, then we are looking at a hundred million, as compared to the 3 billion who call themselves Christians alive today. None the less, if a 100 million people exit planet earth into the open door to New Jerusalem, that will cause SUDDEN DESTRUCTION, and i believe it to be the event that begins the final 14 years. 7 years of the Trial/Seals, and 7 years of the Wrath/3.5 Trumpets and 3.5 Bowls.

Natalie
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 19, 2019 10:09:24 GMT -6 david and inaweofhim like this

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Post by Natalie on Apr 19, 2019 10:09:24 GMT -6

Apr 19, 2019 9:38:44 GMT -6 jp said:

Aug 2, 2018 14:54:49 GMT -6 Gary said:

I had a bit of trouble classifying this one, but "New Jerusalem" makes sense in my mind as the location of the Throne Room scene (:

www.unsealed.org/2018/08/who-are-24-elders.html

The 24 elders are the Church of Philadelphia, who are the same as the wise virgins/servants in the Gospels.

Rev 3:8 = Matt 25:10 = Rev 4:1

The Messiah promises ONLY the Church of Philadelphia to be kept from the hour of trial, and that is why we only see the wise virgins enter the open door in heaven.

Rev 3:8 = Rev 4:1
Rev 3:10 = Rev 4:4 kept from hour of trial = removed prior to seals
Rev 3:11 = Rev 4:4 only the Church of Philadelphia is promised an actual crown = crown of gold (the rest of the Church only has palm branches Rev 7:9)
Rev 3:12 = Rev 4:4 the Church of Philadelphia is promised to be pillars in New Jerusalem (pillar just means a strong important position) = Thrones

The parable of the 10 vigins:

Virgin implies that they only worship the Messiah.
Lamp in the Greek means a burning torch, which points to them being in the Word (Lamp unto my feet).
They are watching and waiting.

But only half are allowed entry. The translation into the English is very misleading in this parable, but a long story short, the oil is not olive oil for a lamp. The wise virgins brought their wedding attire and ornaments to adorn their vessel. The foolish virgins only showed up with their under garments (salvation).

Jeremiah 2
32 “Can a virgin forget her ornaments,
Or a bride her attire?
Yet My people have forgotten Me
Days without number.

Proverbs 1, Rev 3 and 14 tell us how to obtain the ornaments and wedding garments.

Proverbs 1
8 My son, hear the INSTRUCTION of thy father, and forsake not the LAW of thy mother:

9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 14 tells us what the word of patience is:

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, AND the FAITH of Jesus.

The Church of Philadelphia/wise virgins keep the commandments and faith, not just one or the other. The number 24 is misleading, because it is a poor translation. 20 is pointing us to the 2 ten thousands around the Throne, and 4 just means the whole, as in 4 quarters make a whole. The Scripture is saying that the elders are the myriads of myriads part around the Throne, and the angles are the thousands of thousands in Rev 5:11 = Daniel 7:10. Daniel shows us that the angels are the thousands of thousands, because they are "attending" the Messiah, while the myriads of myriads were standing, until it was time for the court to sit = Rev 4:4 sitting on their thrones.

Meaning, when the open door occurs in the very near future, ONLY a very small portion of True believers will enter, the rest will be saying, "Messiah, Messiah, open for us," and He is going to say, I do not recognize you, because you lack MY Torah (ornaments and wedding attire), depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS.

I have been trying a long time to find the exact number for myriads, so i can have an idea of the size of the Church of Philadelphia, but the only number i found is 10,000, so if it is 10,000x10,000, then we are looking at a hundred million, as compared to the 3 billion who call themselves Christians alive today. None the less, if a 100 million people exit planet earth into the open door to New Jerusalem, that will cause SUDDEN DESTRUCTION, and i believe it to be the event that begins the final 14 years. 7 years of the Trial/Seals, and 7 years of the Wrath/3.5 Trumpets and 3.5 Bowls.

I think that you are making Scripture say something it doesn't. You claim that we have faulty translations, but if the foolish virgins are dressed in garments of salvation then they will not be left. No true believer will be left when Jesus opens the door and calls us Home. Jesus did all that needs to be done at the cross. If a person is a true believer, then they are dressed in His righteousness. Those are the wedding garments that are needed. We do not need anything else. Those who He says He doesn't know are those who are not true believers. They are any number of things - false teachers, those who relied on their works, those who thought they were "good enough", whatever their case may be - they never trusted in Christ alone.

The seven churches in Revelation represent churches today, churches throughout time, and the course of church history. If you currently attend a church like any of those described, but you are a true believer, then you will not be left out of His kingdom. For example, those in Thyatira who did not follow "Jezebel" were told to "hold fast what you have until I come." They will be rescued, too.

Last Edit: Apr 19, 2019 11:03:44 GMT -6 by Natalie

Is 26:3 You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.

venge
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Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 20, 2019 8:28:49 GMT -6

Quote

Post by venge on Apr 20, 2019 8:28:49 GMT -6

Apr 19, 2019 10:09:24 GMT -6 Natalie said:

Apr 19, 2019 9:38:44 GMT -6 jp said:

The 24 elders are the Church of Philadelphia, who are the same as the wise virgins/servants in the Gospels.

Rev 3:8 = Matt 25:10 = Rev 4:1

The Messiah promises ONLY the Church of Philadelphia to be kept from the hour of trial, and that is why we only see the wise virgins enter the open door in heaven.

Rev 3:8 = Rev 4:1
Rev 3:10 = Rev 4:4 kept from hour of trial = removed prior to seals
Rev 3:11 = Rev 4:4 only the Church of Philadelphia is promised an actual crown = crown of gold (the rest of the Church only has palm branches Rev 7:9)
Rev 3:12 = Rev 4:4 the Church of Philadelphia is promised to be pillars in New Jerusalem (pillar just means a strong important position) = Thrones

The parable of the 10 vigins:

Virgin implies that they only worship the Messiah.
Lamp in the Greek means a burning torch, which points to them being in the Word (Lamp unto my feet).
They are watching and waiting.

But only half are allowed entry. The translation into the English is very misleading in this parable, but a long story short, the oil is not olive oil for a lamp. The wise virgins brought their wedding attire and ornaments to adorn their vessel. The foolish virgins only showed up with their under garments (salvation).

Jeremiah 2
32 “Can a virgin forget her ornaments,
Or a bride her attire?
Yet My people have forgotten Me
Days without number.

Proverbs 1, Rev 3 and 14 tell us how to obtain the ornaments and wedding garments.

Proverbs 1
8 My son, hear the INSTRUCTION of thy father, and forsake not the LAW of thy mother:

9 For they shall be an ornament of grace unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Rev 3
10 Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 14 tells us what the word of patience is:

Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS of God, AND the FAITH of Jesus.

The Church of Philadelphia/wise virgins keep the commandments and faith, not just one or the other. The number 24 is misleading, because it is a poor translation. 20 is pointing us to the 2 ten thousands around the Throne, and 4 just means the whole, as in 4 quarters make a whole. The Scripture is saying that the elders are the myriads of myriads part around the Throne, and the angles are the thousands of thousands in Rev 5:11 = Daniel 7:10. Daniel shows us that the angels are the thousands of thousands, because they are "attending" the Messiah, while the myriads of myriads were standing, until it was time for the court to sit = Rev 4:4 sitting on their thrones.

Meaning, when the open door occurs in the very near future, ONLY a very small portion of True believers will enter, the rest will be saying, "Messiah, Messiah, open for us," and He is going to say, I do not recognize you, because you lack MY Torah (ornaments and wedding attire), depart from me you who practice LAWLESSNESS.

I have been trying a long time to find the exact number for myriads, so i can have an idea of the size of the Church of Philadelphia, but the only number i found is 10,000, so if it is 10,000x10,000, then we are looking at a hundred million, as compared to the 3 billion who call themselves Christians alive today. None the less, if a 100 million people exit planet earth into the open door to New Jerusalem, that will cause SUDDEN DESTRUCTION, and i believe it to be the event that begins the final 14 years. 7 years of the Trial/Seals, and 7 years of the Wrath/3.5 Trumpets and 3.5 Bowls.

I think that you are making Scripture say something it doesn't. You claim that we have faulty translations, but if the foolish virgins are dressed in garments of salvation then they will not be left. No true believer will be left when Jesus opens the door and calls us Home. Jesus did all that needs to be done at the cross. If a person is a true believer, then they are dressed in His righteousness. Those are the wedding garments that are needed. We do not need anything else. Those who He says He doesn't know are those who are not true believers. They are any number of things - false teachers, those who relied on their works, those who thought they were "good enough", whatever their case may be - they never trusted in Christ alone.

The seven churches in Revelation represent churches today, churches throughout time, and the course of church history. If you currently attend a church like any of those described, but you are a true believer, then you will not be left out of His kingdom. For example, those in Thyatira who did not follow "Jezebel" were told to "hold fast what you have until I come." They will be rescued, too.

I have to add to Natalie's comments, JP - there is soo much I don't agree with what you said. You are equating the 24 elders with the Church of Philadelphia? Then I go back to this question I have raised countless times. If the 24 elders are the Philadelphia church, why do they sing the same song with the 4 living beasts? The 4 living beasts are not redeemed by Christ blood. The song in question relates to those on the earth. We also do not reign in Heaven with Christ. We reign on earth with Christ.

When Christ removed from the flood or wrath of God: Noah, Lot and the women into the wilderness after Christ resurrected for 1260 days in Rev....all of them were not removed OFF the earth. Not 1. They were removed into safety.
I think the verse you posted gets mixed up imo

Because thou hast KEPT THE WORD OF MY PATIENCE, I also will KEEP THEE FROM THE HOUR OF TEMPTATION

How I read it is this: Because you built your house upon a rock, you will be kept from being tempted by God because of your faith and holding to his commandments. It does not say you will be removed. You will be kept from being tempted! Remember Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane when his disciples were falling asleep and he told them to wake otherwise they'd fall into temptation? When the builders of his house on a rock was complet and the storm came to beat against it, it never moved did it? It stood firm. Because the builder of that house had a firm foundation. Those without a firm foundation will be tempted because they lack patience, longsuffering, endurance, true faith.

Last Edit: Apr 20, 2019 8:31:04 GMT -6 by venge

rant
Layman

Posts: 70

Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 24, 2019 18:52:11 GMT -6 fitz likes this

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Post by rant on Apr 24, 2019 18:52:11 GMT -6

Its easy to know who the 24 elders Are>>Its the Raptured Church>> Who can claim this other then the Church>the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." and there is another dead give away > It says they cast their Crowns!!!!!! The bible states only the Church gets crowns in Heaven!! The 5 types of crowns for believers in heaven
The 5 types of crowns are: –
Crown of righteousness
Incorruptible crown
Crown of life
Crown of glory
Crown of rejoicing >>> ARE YOU RAPTURE READY?

venge
Mountain Mover

Posts: 1,627

Who Are The 24 Elders? Apr 25, 2019 9:27:14 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by venge on Apr 25, 2019 9:27:14 GMT -6

Apr 24, 2019 18:52:11 GMT -6 rant said:

Its easy to know who the 24 elders Are>>Its the Raptured Church>> Who can claim this other then the Church>the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." and there is another dead give away > It says they cast their Crowns!!!!!! The bible states only the Church gets crowns in Heaven!! The 5 types of crowns for believers in heaven
The 5 types of crowns are: –
Crown of righteousness
Incorruptible crown
Crown of life
Crown of glory
Crown of rejoicing >>> ARE YOU RAPTURE READY?

You forgot one thing, the 4 living beast also sing the song. When did Christ need to shed his blood for the sins of Cherubims? To which, they are raptured too

matthew2423
Truth Seeker

Posts: 102

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 23, 2019 17:33:44 GMT -6

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Post by matthew2423 on Jul 23, 2019 17:33:44 GMT -6

Hello fellow watchers!

I am of the opinion that the 24 elders in Revelation are the guests at the marriage of Christ and His Bride. I think that the “guests” are the Old Testament saints, including John the Baptist. John the Baptist stated in the gospels that he thought that he would be a “guest” at the marriage. With me taking things literally due to my autism, I think that the marriage of Christ and His Bride and the marriage supper of the Lamb are two separate events that occur while we are in Heaven due to the Tribulation. I also think that the marriage will be a literal wedding ceremony between Jesus and His Church, and a supper after the ceremony. It’s kind of like what the Jewish weddings at the time were like, and also what our weddings are like today, with the ceremony and a reception afterwards with a meal. I see that the 4 living creatures sing the new song with the 24 elders, but I don’t think it necessarily means that the 24 elders are angelic beings or anything like that. I think that would be a case of reading a little too much into the Scriptures. I think that they are human beings, but that they are taken up alongside the Bride, or the Church. Which, in this case, would be the Old Testament saints. I think that all of the saints, which include Old Testament ones, will be resurrected and taken up at the Rapture. I don’t think the believers that are raptured are just exclusively the Church, but I do think that the Old Testament saints are resurrected and taken up to attend Christ’s wedding. And this “royal wedding” will be way bigger than all of the royal weddings on Earth combined! I can only imagine what being married to my Lord and Savior will be like! Thanks for letting me respond, and God bless you all!

boraddict
Mountain Mover

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I'm From: Idaho

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 23, 2019 21:20:42 GMT -6

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Post by boraddict on Jul 23, 2019 21:20:42 GMT -6

It seems that the marriage has several parts:

1) There are those who gave their lives for Christ as in Rev. 6:9 that were given white robes (Rev. 6:11),
2) and there are those who are the fellow servants that are yet to be killed as in Rev. 6:11 that are martyred here in the latter days that will also be given white robes (Rev. 13:7) for their sacrifice and testimony for Christ.

Thus, these honored dead are in attendance at the marriage as "the great multitude" with white robes (Rev. 7:9). It appears that these two groups have qualified for white robes by giving their lives for Christ.

3) However, there are also those who are yet alive and have made themselves "ready" to give their lives for Christ (Rev. 19:7). That is, the dead in Christ have received white robes and have nothing further to prove whereas the living have not proved themselves through that test of giving their lives but have made themselves ready. Thus it is the living to which Rev. 19:7 refers that that portion of his church has "made herself ready." Thus we have in reference to those living whom have made themselves ready to give their lives for Christ the following Rev. 19:9 to wit: "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (KJV).

Now, following this crucial link in Rev. 19:9 to Rev. 14:13 we see that from this point on "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." That is, these at the marriage that are given white robes (Rev. 19:8) while yet alive have already proved themselves while alive. Thus, they are very different than any of the former saints whom received white robes after death because these have their white robes given to them at the wedding and as such they are still subject to mortal death. Who are these but the 144,000 that are sealed with their white robes to Christ (Rev. 7:3-8), and are his army (Rev. 14:1, Rev. 19:11-21).

So it is that they are blessed to die for the Christ in warfare against the beast. Please note that in Chapter 19 these are the fouls called to devour flesh as in kill the beast and his army (Rev. 19:18).

Nevertheless, these are an absolutely devastating army and we know that the two witness are killed (Rev. 11:7) and that they must have been at the marriage. So it is the case that the 144,000 will die at some point but I think the majority will live either some portion of the 1,000 years or throughout the entire 1,000 years.

So, who are the 24 elders but the leaders of the military divisions that become the leaders of the resurrection process' (in my opinion) per Rev. 7:15).

venge
Mountain Mover

Posts: 1,627

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 26, 2019 10:26:45 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by venge on Jul 26, 2019 10:26:45 GMT -6

boraddict

You said that the 2 witnesses die but must have been at the marriage. Are you placing them during after the marriage? I’m confused at your wording.

Do you see the 144k as Jews, Jewish converts or The Philadelphian church?

boraddict
Mountain Mover

Posts: 1,382

I'm From: Idaho

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 26, 2019 23:42:34 GMT -6

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Post by boraddict on Jul 26, 2019 23:42:34 GMT -6

Jul 26, 2019 10:26:45 GMT -6 venge said:

boraddict

You said that the 2 witnesses die but must have been at the marriage. Are you placing them during after the marriage? I’m confused at your wording.

Do you see the 144k as Jews, Jewish converts or The Philadelphian church?

Hi Venge. I am placing the marriage before the midpoint and then the two witnesses and the 144,000 to defend Jerusalem at the midpoint and extending 3.5 years to the end. Thus, the rapture includes the 144,000 as well as the two witnesses, then the marriage takes place, then the midpoint, then the defense of Jerusalem, then the end.

We are the 144,000 and we are Ephraim. That is, the men that are watchers become Christ's army and their families are a part of them to be safely tucked away somewhere. That part of Ephraim that are the Christian watchers are the 144,000; Jew and Gentile alike.

venge
Mountain Mover

Posts: 1,627

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 27, 2019 8:09:26 GMT -6 via mobile

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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2019 8:09:26 GMT -6

Jul 26, 2019 23:42:34 GMT -6 boraddict said:

Jul 26, 2019 10:26:45 GMT -6 venge said:

boraddict

You said that the 2 witnesses die but must have been at the marriage. Are you placing them during after the marriage? I’m confused at your wording.

Do you see the 144k as Jews, Jewish converts or The Philadelphian church?

Hi Venge. I am placing the marriage before the midpoint and then the two witnesses and the 144,000 to defend Jerusalem at the midpoint and extending 3.5 years to the end. Thus, the rapture includes the 144,000 as well as the two witnesses, then the marriage takes place, then the midpoint, then the defense of Jerusalem, then the end.

We are the 144,000 and we are Ephraim. That is, the men that are watchers become Christ's army and their families are a part of them to be safely tucked away somewhere. That part of Ephraim that are the Christian watchers are the 144,000; Jew and Gentile alike.

Interesting. My pattern agrees and is different from yours at the same time.

I agree the rapture includes the 144k, 2 witnesses are removed and after that the marriage happens as you said. As the removal of the 2 witnesses happen before the 7th Trumpet when Christ starts to reign.
Now, if he reigns, he does so in his millennial reign —not the time of Gentiles.

But I place the marriage not in the mid point, but at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ when he “removes out of his kingdom all that work iniquity” and all things that offend. This is after the tribulation and after the time of Gentiles. Placing the bowls in the millennial reign of Christ.

Thank you for explaining, helps me to understand your point of view. Why do you think Christians are the 144k when given Jewish tribal names?

boraddict
Mountain Mover

Posts: 1,382

I'm From: Idaho

Who Are The 24 Elders? Jul 27, 2019 10:52:51 GMT -6

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Post by boraddict on Jul 27, 2019 10:52:51 GMT -6

Jul 27, 2019 8:09:26 GMT -6 venge said:

Jul 26, 2019 23:42:34 GMT -6 boraddict said:

Hi Venge. I am placing the marriage before the midpoint and then the two witnesses and the 144,000 to defend Jerusalem at the midpoint and extending 3.5 years to the end. Thus, the rapture includes the 144,000 as well as the two witnesses, then the marriage takes place, then the midpoint, then the defense of Jerusalem, then the end.

We are the 144,000 and we are Ephraim. That is, the men that are watchers become Christ's army and their families are a part of them to be safely tucked away somewhere. That part of Ephraim that are the Christian watchers are the 144,000; Jew and Gentile alike.

Interesting. My pattern agrees and is different from yours at the same time.

I agree the rapture includes the 144k, 2 witnesses are removed and after that the marriage happens as you said. As the removal of the 2 witnesses happen before the 7th Trumpet when Christ starts to reign.
Now, if he reigns, he does so in his millennial reign —not the time of Gentiles.

But I place the marriage not in the mid point, but at the beginning of the millennial reign of Christ when he “removes out of his kingdom all that work iniquity” and all things that offend. This is after the tribulation and after the time of Gentiles. Placing the bowls in the millennial reign of Christ.

Thank you for explaining, helps me to understand your point of view. Why do you think Christians are the 144k when given Jewish tribal names?

It seems that the 7 years are transitional years between the reign of Satan upon the earth and the reign of Christ upon the earth. Therefore, the mid point is the pivot where the transition of rule actually takes place and this is denoted by the calm (Rev. 8:1) between these two eras. Thus, on the pre-mid side Satan reeks havoc upon the earth and on the post-mid side Christ restores order to the earth beginning at Jerusalem.

Ephraim is the tribe of adoption wherein all the tribes including the gentiles are welcome; Judah on the other hand excludes everyone but the Jews. Secondly, Christ welcomes everyone, thus, Ephraim is more in line with Christ's teachings than Judah. Thus, Ephraim is the Christians and chosen to do the work; not Judah who still wants to sacrifice animals and so forth. Thus, any Jewish person who follows Christ is in the tribe of Ephraim by virtue of that person following Christ. That is, any Jewish person is a Jew until they accept Christ and then they are Christian; and to be Christian is to be in Ephraim that encompasses all the tribes and more.

Last Edit: Jul 27, 2019 21:13:38 GMT -6 by boraddict