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Post by Gary on Aug 2, 2018 14:54:49 GMT -6
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Post by mike on Aug 3, 2018 9:55:13 GMT -6
Good info Gary and presented very well. Thank you
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Post by venge on Aug 3, 2018 15:00:42 GMT -6
Gary,
You first state the 24 elders are human. It is in bold and underlined and has no source to make it a fact therefore only ones opinion.
You showed verse 8 of the KJV but neglected the fact that the NIV in this instance has been said by many who translate Koine that the NIV is a better translation for the passage making it more accurate. It’s translation would not use US and WE but THEY and THEM. This would show the elders are not raptured.
I was hoping on a study of “appearance like a man” from OT books of God’s people who show themselves and have no wings. Are they elders?
Could the 24 elders be OT prophets? We see Elijah and Moses on the mountain with Christ. Both overcame!
I think people want it to be something and it feels forced but not so sure it is that easy. There are definite links, no question....but they still don’t give a definitive answer.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 5, 2018 14:31:47 GMT -6
I am going to toss this out there. In Revelation we are told this:
I was reading thru Bible Hub because I can read translations of the Word that I dont have. I came across this:
4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Perhaps this has nothing to do with the actual number of 24, but something more profound and connected a certain way to the Revealing..
KJV has it reading 4 and then 20,,,which jumped at me it is not a literal number per se, but an indicator description of them.
So I looked up the number 4 and the number 20 for the sake of thinking outside the box if you will.
4, they say, is connected with creation:
I then looked up what they say biblically about the number 20:
Both 4 and 20 could be looked at similarly in connection. both are Time indicators. The Elders that are indicating the waiting period is over or that they are there to declare the end of some period?
Are the Elders those from the past that had to wait on something, or were part of a season or were part of APPOINTED people?
then I see this as I keep reading:
9And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I see 2 things. They (the elders) are dependent on the 4 beasts/creatures time frame of giving honor and glory and thnaks, because of the word 'WHEN' used here...and
this point:
these elders are addressing God, not Jesus just yet, because then we have this scene later. They were in the throne room before Christ arrived..moving on to the next chapter:
7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.........9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
These elders appear to be there BEFORE Christ got there and was seated at the Right Hand. I say this because of the Right Hand reference..and it is when He takes the book from the Right Hand they sing a NEW song. I see this whole thing as a timing event, the elders SING because they represent the waiting period is over, there is one worthy now.
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. John sees a transformation here: the 4 Beasts and the 24 elders He hast made them what?
Kings and Priests...
Rulers designated within His Kingdom, and ordained ministers. 4 creatures, again with FOUR, again, relating to time, SEASONS, God's timeclock that HE rules by, not our earthly time period.. These 4 creatures must have something to do with the times and the Four and Twenty are connected to the waiting time that proclaims completion. They perhaps minister or recognize the end of a waiting period?
They do a lot of singing and proclaiming. Perhaps we are looking at the inner workings of the God's Clock in these two chapters Rev 4 and 5...
And they proclaim with the thousands upon thousands of angels this concerning these 4 things:
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Perhaps this description of 4 creatures and the 4and20 elders tells us who they are based on those in the OT that God demonstrated His glory, honor and power thru...I went to Hebrews 11 and perhaps the list there gives us an example of whom we should look to for these elderships?
BTW, the word 'Blessing' has been added here in the list (see above in vs 4:9), when John sees the huge number of angels with the 4 and "4 and 20"..blessing from the word eulogia, meaning gift...Oh the wonders of this Book!!!! This grouping of the 4 and the 4and20 are now joined by this multitude of angels...
I would tend to slant my opinion on the elders and the number connected to them that they proclaim/signify when waiting periods are complete.
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Post by venge on Aug 5, 2018 14:36:29 GMT -6
Let me reply with the NIV on Rev 5:10
This would say, they are not raptured. They are talking about those that will be raptured.
Them is from Autos. Defined as he, she, it, they, them, same. There is no us or we.
They is from basileuó. Defined as I rule, reign, reign over. Because it was being used with the previous "Them" it is now they.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 5, 2018 15:20:58 GMT -6
I saw that you were making that observation in your previous post. I did not mean to glaze over that. I just had a thought compelling over me and went with that at the time..focusing on the number of the elders and not so much the they or them or we or us... it was my intention to look at what you said more closely, couldn't help myself on the other focus..
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Post by venge on Aug 7, 2018 3:24:35 GMT -6
The number 24 is still speculative in that what it belongs to. I have seen a few ideas, but nothing concrete or presented concretely.
If it’s 12 tribes and 12 disciples, John would have saw himself so that’s out.
If it’s the 24 order in Leviticus or Numbers, forget which, then when it is said what was on earth is a shadow of what already is in heaven, then the 24 existed back in Moses time therefore they are not raptured.
How do we get the reasoning for the number? It is difficult......
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Post by rt on Aug 10, 2018 22:07:02 GMT -6
I respectfully disagree with Gary as to who the 24 elders are. You can read my thoughts on this subject here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=2unsealed.boards.net/thread/235/who-24-elders?page=1&scrollTo=2037The short version is that I believe that the heavenly tabernacle is mirrored in the earthly temple. In fact it serves as the pattern for both the wilderness tabernacle and Solomon's temple. What was present on earth has a heavenly counterpart. The 24 elders are in my opinion a heavenly council which on earth would be reflected in the 24 family divisions of the priesthood. Since I see that when the Lamb enters as slain as the inauguration of the new covenant, an event from John's past (and ours) the 24 elders could not be mortals since Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. These 24 elders cast their golden crowns ( on earth the high priest wore a gold crown) in subjection to the lamb who enters to assume His throne. For more info see the links above. Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it is accurate. I know I may be wrong about a lot of things, but one thing I am pretty confident of is that the 24 elders are not the raptured church. |
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2018 16:14:01 GMT -6
I respectfully disagree with Gary as to who the 24 elders are. You can read my thoughts on this subject here: unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture?page=2unsealed.boards.net/thread/235/who-24-elders?page=1&scrollTo=2037The short version is that I believe that the heavenly tabernacle is mirrored in the earthly temple. In fact it serves as the pattern for both the wilderness tabernacle and Solomon's temple. What was present on earth has a heavenly counterpart. The 24 elders are in my opinion a heavenly council which on earth would be reflected in the 24 family divisions of the priesthood. Since I see that when the Lamb enters as slain as the inauguration of the new covenant, an event from John's past (and ours) the 24 elders could not be mortals since Christ was the first to be raised from the dead. These 24 elders cast their golden crowns ( on earth the high priest wore a gold crown) in subjection to the lamb who enters to assume His throne. For more info see the links above. Just because something has been believed for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it is accurate. I know I may be wrong about a lot of things, but one thing I am pretty confident of is that the 24 elders are not the raptured church. Agree with you 100%! And I don’t say that to add to my position. Regardless, with the proper text of “they and them”, and what was on earth was in heaven disagrees with the notion of the elders being raptured. I don’t believe they are angels either but perhaps representative of what we will become. |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 15, 2018 21:32:08 GMT -6
If I may make a small observation... "No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven." John 3:13 NLT
"No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." John 3:13 ESV
Now, all the different translations seem to interpret this as 'only He who came down from Heaven has ever ascended to Heaven', but it doesn't exactly say that. From what I gather, only Jesus has been there and back again, and He is also in both places since He and the Father are one. Ok, and I know I am going against centuries of thought here, perhaps the 4 and 20 elders are representatives of the priesthood, who, being most prominent in their faith, are selected persons that have ascended to Heaven...and stayed there. I mean, Elijah was 'taken up', was he not? And Enoch did not see death, correct?
I would explain the transfiguration as Jesus meeting Moses and Elijah in Heaven, but allowing the apostles to see them there from their vantage point on Earth. Like a vision, but seeing the real thing as it happened. It just looked like they were at the top of the hill. That's not so far fetched when you consider all the different visions and manifestations that take place in scripture.
other verses: "This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people." Eph. 4:8 NIV (gifts? 'here, take this crown. You've earned it'(not by their works, mind you))
"You have ascended on high; You have led captives away." Psalm 68:18 BSB
"Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands? Who has bound up the waters in His cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son— surely you know!" Prov. 30:4 BSB
I know I am most likely way off base here, but, like barbiosheepgirl said, I'm trying to think outside the box.
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Post by venge on Aug 16, 2018 16:15:35 GMT -6
Stormyknight
Very mature statement! I pray your study brings forth fruit
Edit: I meant to say that the last verse that you put down from Proverbs, I have never read it that way. I’ve passed that verse probably multiple times and it’s exciting to read it and understand it when I didn’t before. Thank you
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Post by fitz on Aug 16, 2018 16:47:29 GMT -6
Another great article Gary! Thank you. Yes, the 24 elders are the raptured Church and we will be seated in heaven before the 1st seal is cracked open.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2018 19:53:00 GMT -6
I have been thinking about what rt put about the earthly things mirroring the heavenly things. I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that. Then it makes sense that 24 divisions of Levitical priests would mirror the 24 elders. I've read defenses that the elders are the church. And it made a lot of sense to me. After all, leaders in the churches were called elders also.
However, I got to looking in Revelation at other places the elders were mentioned. One of these is Revelation 19:4 after the wrath had ended, Babylon is judged and no more, and they (with the 4 creatures) are praising God, still around the throne. There is a great multitude there who I think are the angels and tribulation saints. The saints are called a multitude in 7:9. Back to 19, a great multitude cry out that it is time for the marriage supper because the Bride has made herself ready. Although, we've been ready for 2000 years dressed in the righteousness of Christ, I think the mention of the Bride is because she has been somewhere waiting for the marriage supper. She is not in the multitude. Then in 21:9 one of the seven angels says to John "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb." Then he shows John the New Jerusalem where we know believers will be living. He takes John from a throne room scene to a mountain. The Bride was not around the throne. From Isaiah 26:19-21 I would argue that it is where the Bride had been the entire time since the Rapture.(slight adjustment in thinking, see below)
Isaiah 26:19-21
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise.
You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a dew of light,
and the earth will give birth to the dead.
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until the fury has passed by.
For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place
to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity,
and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it,
and will no more cover its slain.
ETA: I want to amend what I said above...after doing some rereading. John isn't shown the Bride until after the 1000 years. I do not see the actual marriage supper described, but I know it is after the seven years. So, I think John would have seen the bride coming and that's one reason why people say it is the bride with Christ on the white horses. But from chapter 21, I still see the Bride as in the New Jerusalem.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 29, 2018 10:55:27 GMT -6
Doing some more thinking on what I posted above...to review in Rev 19 John is again watching the elders and four creatures worship, there is the announcement of the wedding supper, and then the heavens open. A bit confusing to me that he is in the throne room of heaven but yet the heavens open.
There is no doubt that the one on the horse is Jesus. He comes with His army arrayed in fine linen, the same description as the Bride. So, did He come from the bridal chambers (New Jerusalem)? If so, then the elders are not the church because the elders were at the throne and the bride comes with Jesus from somewhere in the heavens of heaven.
At the point in time of Rev 19, is the New Jerusalem in the heavens (clouds) of heaven?
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Post by venge on Aug 29, 2018 15:31:35 GMT -6
Doing some more thinking on what I posted above...to review in Rev 19 John is again watching the elders and four creatures worship, there is the announcement of the wedding supper, and then the heavens open. A bit confusing to me that he is in the throne room of heaven but yet the heavens open. There is no doubt that the one on the horse is Jesus. He comes with His army arrayed in fine linen, the same description as the Bride. So, did He come from the bridal chambers (New Jerusalem)? If so, then the elders are not the church because the elders were at the throne and the bride comes with Jesus from somewhere in the heavens of heaven. At the point in time of Rev 19, is the New Jerusalem in the heavens (clouds) of heaven? Natalie, I am excited for you. I say that not cheaply but with great love. Not to win you or to persuade you but I see you recognizing things that I did a few years back and slowly the blinders come off. I will pray for you tonight that you don't give up. I will pray that you pray yourself and ask the HS to guide you and that through study and prayer and not of your own inclination, I hope you see things that open your eyes wide. |
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