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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 15:54:58 GMT -6
So I'm a little confused... fitz, are you in agreement that the Jewish remnant are the only believers left when Jesus returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Or are you still thinking about this? Edited: to tag fitz and specify that I am asking about Jesus' return at the end (and not the rapture). |
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Post by disciple4life on May 10, 2018 16:03:39 GMT -6
So I'm a little confused... are you in agreement that the Jewish remnant are the only believers left when Jesus returns? Or are you still thinking about this? witness1, ;-) To whom is this addressed? I'm not sure if you are asking me or Venge or someone else.
And just to clarify - not to be nit-picky, heheh - but when you say " . . . the only believers left when Jesus returns" are you referring to the Harpazo /rapture, or the second coming/Judgement/ end of Tribulation?
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 16:13:22 GMT -6
Hi! Sorry that was confusing... I had been talking to fitz and I guess expected everyone to read my mind  . I will edit that... thanks! I am saying that there are no believers (except the remnant) left at His second coming (on the Mount of Olives at the end of the Great Tribulation)... not the rapture. I'll edit that too. Thanks. Revelation 9:20 says "the rest of mankind did not give up worshiping demons..." I know we all like to make the plain sense make plain sense... what do you take of that verse, disciple4life? |
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Post by fitz on May 10, 2018 16:22:05 GMT -6
So I'm a little confused... fitz , are you in agreement that the Jewish remnant are the only believers left when Jesus returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Or are you still thinking about this? Edited: to tag fitz and specify that I am asking about Jesus' return at the end (and not the rapture). Well, I was just playing along witness1. I think it is a combo of Jewish and gentile believers that will make it through to the end (second coming) and they will live on into the Millennium. |
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 16:25:53 GMT -6
So how would you explain these verses, fitz? "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts." Rev 9:20-21 |
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Post by fitz on May 10, 2018 18:03:41 GMT -6
So how would you explain these verses, fitz ? "The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts." Rev 9:20-21 Well, I hate the way the ESV renders that verse...makes it sound as if it's referring to everyone alive in the world and I do not think that's the case. Read it here from the KJV. This rendering seems to limit it to those who were both evil before the plagues and remained evil after the plagues. But it doesn't necessarily indicate everyone alive on the earth is in view here. And I just don't think it can be. 20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. |
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 18:36:46 GMT -6
If it was qualifying men who were evil both before and after, then would it not say something like, “and the rest of the men who did not repent were not killed”, with the order of things switched? With the clause describing mankind as being those who repented not? Like this- Q: What mankind? A: The mankind who repented not.
But we don’t see this... the clause describing the rest of mankind is “who were not killed” in either translation. Q: What mankind? A: The mankind who were not killed.
So we have this noun of mankind. And the clause describing mankind is that they weren’t killed by the plagues. And then there is a further qualification that those who weren’t killed did not repent. Maybe we need a Greek expert here, but the English doesn’t seem to qualify mankind as only those who were evil both before and after. It qualifies mankind as people who weren’t killed.
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Post by disciple4life on May 11, 2018 0:36:51 GMT -6
I've seen the dialogue on other threads, too. 7 years of a 360 day calendar is 2520 days I think it's a mistake to rearrange Daniel 9:26-27 to say something other than there is a 7 year period left. Daniel says that there are 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, the Messiah is cut off after that, a people come and destroy the city and sanctuary, and then one week is left. In the middle of that week sacrifice and offering ends. You have to rearrange Scripture to have 3.5 years left instead of 7. Agreed, 100% @natalie.
Also, to mike, - I can't speak for Venge or anyone else, but here's my understanding, and why it's also the view held by countless Bible scholars across denominational spectrum. If there were simply two records/ passages of 1260 days [3 1/2 years on the prophetic/ Biblical calendar] then it would indicate/ support the notion that this is one 3 1/2 year period. - But the fact is that we have two different day counts, 1260, and 1290 days - and this second, separate day count of 1290 = 3 1/2 years plus a leap month - together = 7 years or 2550 days.
- Then, we also have the Huge parallel of the Hebrew wedding, *** the passage of the 10 virgins/bridesmaids is explicitly a wedding, and also clearly the second coming/ reward and judgement. hmmmm. Bride is taken for 7 days into the chupa, - and then they return for the marriage supper.
- The other issue is that we also have the verse in Daniel about the middle of the week, [7 years] and the Abomination of Desolation in the temple standing in the holy place ***which is why it will be a real temple, or at least a physical tent.
- The other, huge thing is that we have the 2 witnesses - Godzilla Brothers, in Jerusalem, and the 144,000 Jewish missionaries around the world who are preaching, in the first half. AT FIRST, the JEWS are blinded, and think the AC is the long-awaited Messiah. They are tricked. Then, their eyes are open. It is then, in the second half, that the remnant Jews will escape to Petra/ wilderness while God pours out his wrath and judgment on the rest of the world who worship the AC and the false prophet. - Scripture explicitly says that 'she/ remnant/ Jews will be protected/ kept safe for 3 1/2 years. 'Times, time and half a time". This has to be the Great Tribulation, second half, because in the first half, they are still deceived, and they can't just go 3 1/2 years immediately into the Petra/ wilderness when there is not a 3rd Temple and the AC would not have even been exposed. He is just arriving on the scene in the first half, and they need to build a temple, and establish the sacrifices again. - Another huge point. 3 1/2 years is not enough time to set up the mark of the beast on a global level and make world-wide enforcement, and track/ monitor those who don't have it. There are plenty of places in the US right now, you can be 40 miles from anyone and totally off the grid from any modern life. People have private hunting lodges with 200 acres and more in the middle of Montana, SD and PA, etc. There are thousands of acres if not miles of forest that span Europe. Right near or shortly after the rapture, the world will be dealing with Ezekiel 38, WW III and this will most likely be nuclear. The sheer panic, hysteria, confusion, anarchy, massive radiation and loss of life will be mind-numbing. Couple that with the total terror of tens of millions of people missing, *** all the children, in atheist and Muslim countries, and the leaders will have to collaborate their story to explain what happened. [Alien invasion/abduction] It is in this context of absolute fear and hysteria that the AC will promise to bring peace, set up his one-world government and implement rules that are applied in Asia, NA and Europe. This doesn't happen in 3 1/2 years. In Europe - it takes a year to build a 3 story shopping mall.
Maranatha.
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Post by venge on May 11, 2018 4:25:18 GMT -6
I've seen the dialogue on other threads, too. 7 years of a 360 day calendar is 2520 days I think it's a mistake to rearrange Daniel 9:26-27 to say something other than there is a 7 year period left. Daniel says that there are 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, the Messiah is cut off after that, a people come and destroy the city and sanctuary, and then one week is left. In the middle of that week sacrifice and offering ends. You have to rearrange Scripture to have 3.5 years left instead of 7. Agreed, 100% @natalie.
Also, to mike, - I can't speak for Venge or anyone else, but here's my understanding, and why it's also the view held by countless Bible scholars across denominational spectrum. If there were simply two records/ passages of 1260 days [3 1/2 years on the prophetic/ Biblical calendar] then it would indicate/ support the notion that this is one 3 1/2 year period. - But the fact is that we have two different day counts, 1260, and 1290 days - and this second, separate day count of 1290 = 3 1/2 years plus a leap month - together = 7 years or 2550 days.
- Then, we also have the Huge parallel of the Hebrew wedding, *** the passage of the 10 virgins/bridesmaids is explicitly a wedding, and also clearly the second coming/ reward and judgement. hmmmm. Bride is taken for 7 days into the chupa, - and then they return for the marriage supper.
- The other issue is that we also have the verse in Daniel about the middle of the week, [7 years] and the Abomination of Desolation in the temple standing in the holy place ***which is why it will be a real temple, or at least a physical tent.
- The other, huge thing is that we have the 2 witnesses - Godzilla Brothers, in Jerusalem, and the 144,000 Jewish missionaries around the world who are preaching, in the first half. AT FIRST, the JEWS are blinded, and think the AC is the long-awaited Messiah. They are tricked. Then, their eyes are open. It is then, in the second half, that the remnant Jews will escape to Petra/ wilderness while God pours out his wrath and judgment on the rest of the world who worship the AC and the false prophet. - Scripture explicitly says that 'she/ remnant/ Jews will be protected/ kept safe for 3 1/2 years. 'Times, time and half a time". This has to be the Great Tribulation, second half, because in the first half, they are still deceived, and they can't just go 3 1/2 years immediately into the Petra/ wilderness when there is not a 3rd Temple and the AC would not have even been exposed. He is just arriving on the scene in the first half, and they need to build a temple, and establish the sacrifices again. - Another huge point. 3 1/2 years is not enough time to set up the mark of the beast on a global level and make world-wide enforcement, and track/ monitor those who don't have it. There are plenty of places in the US right now, you can be 40 miles from anyone and totally off the grid from any modern life. People have private hunting lodges with 200 acres and more in the middle of Montana, SD and PA, etc. There are thousands of acres if not miles of forest that span Europe. Right near or shortly after the rapture, the world will be dealing with Ezekiel 38, WW III and this will most likely be nuclear. The sheer panic, hysteria, confusion, anarchy, massive radiation and loss of life will be mind-numbing. Couple that with the total terror of tens of millions of people missing, *** all the children, in atheist and Muslim countries, and the leaders will have to collaborate their story to explain what happened. [Alien invasion/abduction] It is in this context of absolute fear and hysteria that the AC will promise to bring peace, set up his one-world government and implement rules that are applied in Asia, NA and Europe. This doesn't happen in 3 1/2 years. In Europe - it takes a year to build a 3 story shopping mall.
Maranatha.
[ I just been reading these threads and remaining quite. I agree without almost everything you said above except the 1290 being a leap year. Now, it very well may be. I have thought of that as well as placement and not a leap. The other was the mark which using scripture we can identify one way showing the mark is not a physical mark. Therefore, it is easily taken very quickly. Without getting into it, let me pose a question...What is the mark of a Christian? The Bible says every Christian also wears a mark in their forehead but not in their right hand because if it’s in your right hand you have iniquity! Why? Figure that out and you understand the mark |
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Post by witness1 on May 11, 2018 8:37:35 GMT -6
I've seen the dialogue on other threads, too. 7 years of a 360 day calendar is 2520 days I think it's a mistake to rearrange Daniel 9:26-27 to say something other than there is a 7 year period left. Daniel says that there are 7 weeks plus 62 weeks, the Messiah is cut off after that, a people come and destroy the city and sanctuary, and then one week is left. In the middle of that week sacrifice and offering ends. You have to rearrange Scripture to have 3.5 years left instead of 7. Agreed, 100% @natalie.
Also, to mike , - I can't speak for Venge or anyone else, but here's my understanding, and why it's also the view held by countless Bible scholars across denominational spectrum. If there were simply two records/ passages of 1260 days [3 1/2 years on the prophetic/ Biblical calendar] then it would indicate/ support the notion that this is one 3 1/2 year period. - But the fact is that we have two different day counts, 1260, and 1290 days - and this second, separate day count of 1290 = 3 1/2 years plus a leap month - together = 7 years or 2550 days.
But what is to say they don't overlap? We also have a count of 1335 which we assume overlaps the 1290. Why don't we also assume that the 1290 overlaps the 1260?
- Then, we also have the Huge parallel of the Hebrew wedding, *** the passage of the 10 virgins/bridesmaids is explicitly a wedding, and also clearly the second coming/ reward and judgement. hmmmm. Bride is taken for 7 days into the chupa, - and then they return for the marriage supper.
Can you show me in scripture that this is anything other than tradition passed on through the years? Anything that says this is how things operated in Jesus' time? I disagree with the idea that the bride and groom are alone for 7 days and then go to the feast... that is not what I see in scripture unless I'm missing something. The only mention I see in scripture of a week-long wedding feast is quite different from what you are describing. In Genesis 29:22, we see that "Laban gathered together all the people of the place and made a feast." Then that evening, he gave Jacob Leah. He told Jacob to complete the week with Leah and then he could have Rachel. So we do have the week thing. But the feasting took place coinciding with this week... not after. The entire celebration lasted 7 days... with all of the guests. This is why they ran out of wine in Cana... because the guests were feasting for 7 days. I do not see in scripture that the bride and groom are alone for 7 days before the wedding feast. Can you show me where you see this?
- The other issue is that we also have the verse in Daniel about the middle of the week, [7 years] and the Abomination of Desolation in the temple standing in the holy place ***which is why it will be a real temple, or at least a physical tent.
I've already said that I disagree that a temple - fully built or a tent - would be called the holy place. God's presence is not there. It is not any more holy than the tent I sleep in when I go camping. I guess we disagree on this though.
- The other, huge thing is that we have the 2 witnesses - Godzilla Brothers, in Jerusalem, and the 144,000 Jewish missionaries around the world who are preaching, in the first half. AT FIRST, the JEWS are blinded, and think the AC is the long-awaited Messiah. They are tricked. Then, their eyes are open. It is then, in the second half, that the remnant Jews will escape to Petra/ wilderness while God pours out his wrath and judgment on the rest of the world who worship the AC and the false prophet.
Can you please provide the scripture that says the Jews are blinded, think the AC is the long-awaited Messiah, are tricked, and then their eyes are open?
- Scripture explicitly says that 'she/ remnant/ Jews will be protected/ kept safe for 3 1/2 years. 'Times, time and half a time". This has to be the Great Tribulation, second half, because in the first half, they are still deceived, and they can't just go 3 1/2 years immediately into the Petra/ wilderness when there is not a 3rd Temple and the AC would not have even been exposed. He is just arriving on the scene in the first half, and they need to build a temple, and establish the sacrifices again.
Again, what scripture says they are deceived and can't flee in the first half? The scripture about them fleeing actually supports them fleeing at the beginning. Revelation 12 really sounds like the fleeing happens immediately after the male child is caught up. The dragon pursues the woman as soon as he is thrown down. This sounds very different than coming in peace for 3.5 years... it sounds like he pursues them from the beginning but they are protected.
- Another huge point. 3 1/2 years is not enough time to set up the mark of the beast on a global level and make world-wide enforcement, and track/ monitor those who don't have it. There are plenty of places in the US right now, you can be 40 miles from anyone and totally off the grid from any modern life. People have private hunting lodges with 200 acres and more in the middle of Montana, SD and PA, etc. There are thousands of acres if not miles of forest that span Europe. Right near or shortly after the rapture, the world will be dealing with Ezekiel 38, WW III and this will most likely be nuclear. The sheer panic, hysteria, confusion, anarchy, massive radiation and loss of life will be mind-numbing. Couple that with the total terror of tens of millions of people missing, *** all the children, in atheist and Muslim countries, and the leaders will have to collaborate their story to explain what happened. [Alien invasion/abduction] It is in this context of absolute fear and hysteria that the AC will promise to bring peace, set up his one-world government and implement rules that are applied in Asia, NA and Europe. This doesn't happen in 3 1/2 years. In Europe - it takes a year to build a 3 story shopping mall.
This is precisely the point!!!!! Hallelujah! We see in scripture that Satan will set up a mark. Whether it is as venge suggests or a microchip, we know he will implement a mark that you must have to buy or sell. And setting this up will take quite some time like you say. But do you know what we DON'T see in scripture? We don't see any mention that Satan kills people who don't take the mark. None. Nada. He doesn't get a chance. Yes, he sets it up at the 3.5 year mark. But also at the 3.5 year mark, God rescues everyone who doesn't take it before Satan has a chance with them. Just like He caught up the male child and just like He protects the woman in the wilderness, he also protects those who worship Him and are not part of the beast system. "The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues did not repent or give up worshiping demons..."
Maranatha.
Maranatha!
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blur
New Member
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Post by blur on May 11, 2018 10:46:07 GMT -6
I am writing this in response to venge 's post on the Psalm 83 thread, but since I am pretty guilty of derailing threads, I decided to start a new one since this doesn't really have to do with Psalm 83. The purpose of this is to sort through the questions: 1) What is God's wrath? 2) How much suffering will tribulation saints go through and for what purpose? 3) Why do tribulation saints have to suffer if we get the easy button of the rapture? 4) What does Revelation say and NOT say about martyrdom? Venge, I think these are all very valid thoughts. When I didn't believe in the rapture for a few months, these were all the issues I shared as well. How do I expect God to remove me from the tribulation and then ask my neighbors to choose Jesus and be beheaded for their faith? If I were called to martyrdom, God would have to give me supernatural faith in the moment. Because I don't have it right now. How do I expect new believers to be willing to die for their faith, and why does God ask them to do that and not me (assuming I'm raptured)? And I don't think I've worked them all out yet, but here are a few points to consider: 1) Giving Satan the ability to conquer the whole world IS God's wrath. Something has been restraining Satan until the appointed time. Whether by Michael or the Holy Spirit, we know Satan has been restrained. Even with all of the countless, terrible atrocities that have been committed over the years, there has never been worldwide suffering and control of Satan. There have been strongholds of light all over the world where Satan couldn't touch. It's like when you read about that awful Southwest flight recently where someone was sucked out of the window. That is TERRIBLE! I can't imagine. But that is still only one person in how many thousands of flights? And the school shootings... again, awful. My husband recently did the funeral for a school shooter... it's so horrible you almost can't bear it. But at the same time, statistically speaking, I don't expect 1/3 of the children in schools today to be shot by a classmate. The fact that Satan will go forth to conquer and have all authority for 42 months IS God's wrath on the world. People have asked for God to be removed from them, and He will give them what they are asking for. This IS God's wrath, and it comes after He removes His followers. I think of this as His "indirect wrath" rather than His "direct wrath" that comes at the end of the tribulation. 2) Job is an example of a righteous man, just like Abraham and Moses and the other great men in the Bible. But this does not mean all men are called to share their same level of faith. I wish we did. But God gives some 5 talents of faith, and He gives some only 2 talents of faith. Each man is only responsible to invest what he has been given... we should pray that God will help us to be faithful and look to Job as an example, but at the same time, we are not to despair that we have not been given 5 talents. Yes, God gave Satan control over Job. BUT, he did not have the power to kill Job. And God did not give Satan the same power over every man with 1 talent of faith. The takeaway from Job is that Satan had to ASK for power, and God had to give it. And He gave it in this case because He knew Job would be faithful. We can't look at Satan being given power over Job as proof that God will give Satan power over each of us. Now, if God were to call the masses to martyrdom, He will give His true followers 5 talents in the moment it is needed. But this is not usually the way we see God work. We see God develop a person's faith over time... slowly calling us out into deeper waters. Each of us investing the faith that has been given and then getting more. So by the time chosen saints are called to martyrdom, they have already been trusting Jesus out on the water for quite some time. Again, it's possible to throw a new believer straight in the deep end and for Jesus to offer His hand, but this isn't the way He usually works. He calls people on the water who know how to keep their eyes focused on Him. There are a lot of new believers, and there are some wicked servants who have never invested their 1 talent. It's up to God to decide what to do with them. But I don't think He has given us all the same talents He gave Job. 3) The idea that it doesn't make sense for God to remove believers from the tribulation and then make new believers suffer for their faith... and that they will be in a world under God's wrath when we are removed from it... has led me to some unusual ideas which I will throw out for your review. I haven't had time lately to develop my thoughts well, so this will be a crude skeleton of an idea unfortunately. And obviously this is all my opinion but I'm not going to write IMO every other sentence. So this began because this verse REALLY jumped out at me: The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 9:20-21
This verse tells me that everyone who is left on earth at this point in the tribulation is NOT a follower of Jesus >>> anyone who worshiped Jesus has just been killed by the angels of death. This is at the 6th trumpet and is the 2nd woe. So it is right about the time that the 2 Witnesses are killed and then resurrect... 1260 days into the Great Tribulation. What does it imply that anyone who worshiped Jesus has been killed by the angels of death? MERCY! God saves those who are His from His wrath AND the wrath of Satan. There is only one rapture, but I believe He mercifully kills those who are His. This is why we see the theme of 1/3 throughout the book. Throughout the Bible, sometimes God spares 1/3, and sometimes He takes 1/3. But somehow the third part is His. This third of mankind who has just been killed by the angels of death is the Great Multitude who appears in heaven in Revelation 7. Notice the angels who fall on their faces praising God. He has just done something awesome and unexpected. Something awesome like snatching His followers out of the grasp of Satan. This Great Multitude has "come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." They have become followers of Jesus during the GT, and somehow they all appear in heaven at once... perhaps because they were all killed at the same time? The time after which the Bible tells us that no one alive from then on worships Jesus? I wrote a long post with more details here: unsealed.boards.net/post/20401/thread4) There is no vignette in Revelation picturing mass beheadings or martyrdom. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, Rev 22:18
Here's what we know: a) The dragon goes off to make war with the offspring of the woman after the male child was caught away and the woman is protected in the wilderness. He goes off to make war, but it does not say he beheads millions of people. b) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:5-10
This certainly sounds like the beast will kill many. But this is captivity and conquering in war... this is not, "if you don't deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast, you will be beheaded," followed by mass beheadings. The faith and patience of the saints is that vengeance is the Lord's and He will take this beast captive and kill him with the sword just as he has done to the saints. So we see that Satan is given power to conquer in war and take God's people captive. And yes, some will die under this regime and all will suffer. But yet I wonder... how long is it between this conquering and God sending the angels of death to remove His people from this world? God is merciful in the amount of temptation He allows His people to bear. People who choose to wait until after the rapture to come to faith will have to suffer more than those of us who know Him when the door closes, but anyone who wants to be His will be saved, just as the verse you quoted says: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
God's people will be delivered from the hand of Satan... some in the rapture, and those following in death. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rev 14:13
c) Jesus says that some of us will be delivered up to death. "Some" means that this will be the exception and not the rule. Yes, we should all be prepared to die if necessary for our faith, trusting that God will give us the strength we need. But martyrdom will not be imposed upon every believer on the face of the earth. After a short period of tribulation and persecution, God will rapture His people out of it. This will be done to show that He saves those who are His, thereby encouraging people after we are gone to place their trust in Him when they see the evil of the world they are left in. I do think there will be short tribulation and persecution before the rapture, in order to show people WHY we have been taken. They will know there is a good God who saves. And He does the same with them... rescuing them after a short time under the control of the beast... except this time their rescue is a merciful, painless death and not a rapture. d) The 2 Witnesses are the only ones shown in Revelation to be killed specifically for their faith. These two alone would satisfy the 5th seal martyrs waiting for the rest of their brothers to be killed. And we know that the angels of death "kill"... so we need nothing more than the 2 Witnesses waiting for the angels of death to kill the followers of Jesus so that God's wrath can rain down in vengeance on the beast system. We don't need to picture the 5th seal martrys as thousands of believers waiting for more believers to be beheaded. We need to see a minimum of 2 people asking when God will take vengeance. And the answer is that He cannot rain down His direct wrath while His followers are still on the earth... they need to be killed first and then His direct wrath will come. 5) God's wrath after ALL of His people are removed from this world is His wrath on Satan and that beast kingdom- those who know the Gospel and reject it. I don't believe God comes in "direct wrath" on the everyday men and women on this earth who have not heard the Gospel. And yes, there are people in America who haven't heard the Gospel... we encounter them all the time in our ministry. And they are without excuse- they can clearly see God in nature and should open a Bible and read it (Romans 1). But I still believe He gives substantial trial to turn people to Him rather than just capriciously zapping people with lightning bolts. God's "direct wrath" comes after all have clearly heard the Gospel from the angel flying through the air and have all been given a chance to either accept or reject His offer of forgiveness. I am saddened by people who keep saying, "time's up! God's about to zap you!" with seeming glee and pride that they have accepted Him when all those heathens out there haven't. These heathens haven't been converted TO OUR SHAME (1 Cor 15:34). The church has failed them. Yet God is merciful on us sinners who have failed to proclaim His Gospel to the nations, and I believe He will be merciful to those who haven't heard the Good News and will give them a chance to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I don't think He just kills them on day 1. He will do abundantly more than we could ask or imagine for our loved ones left behind. We have been taught that anyone who doesn't know God by an appointed time will be killed in horrible, painful ways, and anyone who DOES decide to follow Christ will be forced to choose martyrdom or eternal damnation through the mark of the beast. I don't see either of these in the text though. People keep asking, "what is the purpose of the tribulation?" The answer: 1) to save the unsaved, primarily the Jews, 2) to pour out wrath on the truly evil beings who have been in control of our earth. No, it's not going to be a walk in the park for those left behind, which is why we should do our best to share the Gospel now. But since the PURPOSE of the trial is mercy and salvation, it will not be more than anyone who chooses the Lord can bear. God's wrath is very easy to explain once you look at Matt 25 The '1/3' portion described in Trumpets 1-4 is Satan being cast out of 'heaven' (on earth). It is not an amount of damage per se. The 'kingdom of heaven' that is mentioned in Matt 25:1 is on earth. There are 3 portions: heaven, sea, & earth. Trumpets 1-4 is Satan being kicked out of 'heaven' (on earth), leaving behind 'woe, woe, woe to the sea & earth: ie the beast from the sea & beast from the earth. There is no 'whisked away' rapture. All people that have 'called upon the name of the Lord' (Joel 2:32) have been saved (the 10 virgins from above). Notice in verse 5 above, it says that Jesus is delayed. People see Jesus return, but he is purposefully delaying taking control of the world which occurs at the start of the 7th Trumpet. This bit from Matt 24 is the 6th Seal, then the 'day of the Lord/ day of the Lord's wrath' starts at the Trumpets. (the first 4 trumpets indicating Satan is removed from the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth). The Day of the Lord kicks Satan out of heaven (on earth) (1/3 out of the 3 portions) and ends the 'great tribulation' for the elect's sake. (it only lasts for 45 days). People 'don't repent' at the 6th Trumpet: it is not all people on 'earth', it is excluding the 5 wise virgins who are safe in the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth). Why does it say that 'they don't repent'? Rev 2 Jezebel is the unfaithful apostate church that is thrown back into the great tribulation - the 5 foolish virgins, after being saved in the 'day of the Lord' along with the 5 wise virgins, (both the wise & foolish virgins are saved because they have 'called on the name of the Lord') are joined with Jezebel. Jezebel was given 'time to repent' (the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet from the start of the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth) (caused by Satan being kicked out of the 'kingdom of heaven on earth', the 1/3 portion referenced in Trumpets 1-4). But then they are thrown back into it at the 6th Trumpet when they 'don't repent'. The 7th Trumpet/ 7 bowls of wrath destroys the beast from the sea & earth kingdoms. |
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Post by venge on May 11, 2018 12:05:05 GMT -6
I am writing this in response to venge 's post on the Psalm 83 thread, but since I am pretty guilty of derailing threads, I decided to start a new one since this doesn't really have to do with Psalm 83. The purpose of this is to sort through the questions: 1) What is God's wrath? 2) How much suffering will tribulation saints go through and for what purpose? 3) Why do tribulation saints have to suffer if we get the easy button of the rapture? 4) What does Revelation say and NOT say about martyrdom? Venge, I think these are all very valid thoughts. When I didn't believe in the rapture for a few months, these were all the issues I shared as well. How do I expect God to remove me from the tribulation and then ask my neighbors to choose Jesus and be beheaded for their faith? If I were called to martyrdom, God would have to give me supernatural faith in the moment. Because I don't have it right now. How do I expect new believers to be willing to die for their faith, and why does God ask them to do that and not me (assuming I'm raptured)? And I don't think I've worked them all out yet, but here are a few points to consider: 1) Giving Satan the ability to conquer the whole world IS God's wrath. Something has been restraining Satan until the appointed time. Whether by Michael or the Holy Spirit, we know Satan has been restrained. Even with all of the countless, terrible atrocities that have been committed over the years, there has never been worldwide suffering and control of Satan. There have been strongholds of light all over the world where Satan couldn't touch. It's like when you read about that awful Southwest flight recently where someone was sucked out of the window. That is TERRIBLE! I can't imagine. But that is still only one person in how many thousands of flights? And the school shootings... again, awful. My husband recently did the funeral for a school shooter... it's so horrible you almost can't bear it. But at the same time, statistically speaking, I don't expect 1/3 of the children in schools today to be shot by a classmate. The fact that Satan will go forth to conquer and have all authority for 42 months IS God's wrath on the world. People have asked for God to be removed from them, and He will give them what they are asking for. This IS God's wrath, and it comes after He removes His followers. I think of this as His "indirect wrath" rather than His "direct wrath" that comes at the end of the tribulation. 2) Job is an example of a righteous man, just like Abraham and Moses and the other great men in the Bible. But this does not mean all men are called to share their same level of faith. I wish we did. But God gives some 5 talents of faith, and He gives some only 2 talents of faith. Each man is only responsible to invest what he has been given... we should pray that God will help us to be faithful and look to Job as an example, but at the same time, we are not to despair that we have not been given 5 talents. Yes, God gave Satan control over Job. BUT, he did not have the power to kill Job. And God did not give Satan the same power over every man with 1 talent of faith. The takeaway from Job is that Satan had to ASK for power, and God had to give it. And He gave it in this case because He knew Job would be faithful. We can't look at Satan being given power over Job as proof that God will give Satan power over each of us. Now, if God were to call the masses to martyrdom, He will give His true followers 5 talents in the moment it is needed. But this is not usually the way we see God work. We see God develop a person's faith over time... slowly calling us out into deeper waters. Each of us investing the faith that has been given and then getting more. So by the time chosen saints are called to martyrdom, they have already been trusting Jesus out on the water for quite some time. Again, it's possible to throw a new believer straight in the deep end and for Jesus to offer His hand, but this isn't the way He usually works. He calls people on the water who know how to keep their eyes focused on Him. There are a lot of new believers, and there are some wicked servants who have never invested their 1 talent. It's up to God to decide what to do with them. But I don't think He has given us all the same talents He gave Job. 3) The idea that it doesn't make sense for God to remove believers from the tribulation and then make new believers suffer for their faith... and that they will be in a world under God's wrath when we are removed from it... has led me to some unusual ideas which I will throw out for your review. I haven't had time lately to develop my thoughts well, so this will be a crude skeleton of an idea unfortunately. And obviously this is all my opinion but I'm not going to write IMO every other sentence. So this began because this verse REALLY jumped out at me: The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. Rev 9:20-21
This verse tells me that everyone who is left on earth at this point in the tribulation is NOT a follower of Jesus >>> anyone who worshiped Jesus has just been killed by the angels of death. This is at the 6th trumpet and is the 2nd woe. So it is right about the time that the 2 Witnesses are killed and then resurrect... 1260 days into the Great Tribulation. What does it imply that anyone who worshiped Jesus has been killed by the angels of death? MERCY! God saves those who are His from His wrath AND the wrath of Satan. There is only one rapture, but I believe He mercifully kills those who are His. This is why we see the theme of 1/3 throughout the book. Throughout the Bible, sometimes God spares 1/3, and sometimes He takes 1/3. But somehow the third part is His. This third of mankind who has just been killed by the angels of death is the Great Multitude who appears in heaven in Revelation 7. Notice the angels who fall on their faces praising God. He has just done something awesome and unexpected. Something awesome like snatching His followers out of the grasp of Satan. This Great Multitude has "come out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb." They have become followers of Jesus during the GT, and somehow they all appear in heaven at once... perhaps because they were all killed at the same time? The time after which the Bible tells us that no one alive from then on worships Jesus? I wrote a long post with more details here: unsealed.boards.net/post/20401/thread4) There is no vignette in Revelation picturing mass beheadings or martyrdom. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, Rev 22:18
Here's what we know: a) The dragon goes off to make war with the offspring of the woman after the male child was caught away and the woman is protected in the wilderness. He goes off to make war, but it does not say he beheads millions of people. b) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear. He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. Rev 13:5-10
This certainly sounds like the beast will kill many. But this is captivity and conquering in war... this is not, "if you don't deny Jesus and take the mark of the beast, you will be beheaded," followed by mass beheadings. The faith and patience of the saints is that vengeance is the Lord's and He will take this beast captive and kill him with the sword just as he has done to the saints. So we see that Satan is given power to conquer in war and take God's people captive. And yes, some will die under this regime and all will suffer. But yet I wonder... how long is it between this conquering and God sending the angels of death to remove His people from this world? God is merciful in the amount of temptation He allows His people to bear. People who choose to wait until after the rapture to come to faith will have to suffer more than those of us who know Him when the door closes, but anyone who wants to be His will be saved, just as the verse you quoted says: And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
God's people will be delivered from the hand of Satan... some in the rapture, and those following in death. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!” Rev 14:13
c) Jesus says that some of us will be delivered up to death. "Some" means that this will be the exception and not the rule. Yes, we should all be prepared to die if necessary for our faith, trusting that God will give us the strength we need. But martyrdom will not be imposed upon every believer on the face of the earth. After a short period of tribulation and persecution, God will rapture His people out of it. This will be done to show that He saves those who are His, thereby encouraging people after we are gone to place their trust in Him when they see the evil of the world they are left in. I do think there will be short tribulation and persecution before the rapture, in order to show people WHY we have been taken. They will know there is a good God who saves. And He does the same with them... rescuing them after a short time under the control of the beast... except this time their rescue is a merciful, painless death and not a rapture. d) The 2 Witnesses are the only ones shown in Revelation to be killed specifically for their faith. These two alone would satisfy the 5th seal martyrs waiting for the rest of their brothers to be killed. And we know that the angels of death "kill"... so we need nothing more than the 2 Witnesses waiting for the angels of death to kill the followers of Jesus so that God's wrath can rain down in vengeance on the beast system. We don't need to picture the 5th seal martrys as thousands of believers waiting for more believers to be beheaded. We need to see a minimum of 2 people asking when God will take vengeance. And the answer is that He cannot rain down His direct wrath while His followers are still on the earth... they need to be killed first and then His direct wrath will come. 5) God's wrath after ALL of His people are removed from this world is His wrath on Satan and that beast kingdom- those who know the Gospel and reject it. I don't believe God comes in "direct wrath" on the everyday men and women on this earth who have not heard the Gospel. And yes, there are people in America who haven't heard the Gospel... we encounter them all the time in our ministry. And they are without excuse- they can clearly see God in nature and should open a Bible and read it (Romans 1). But I still believe He gives substantial trial to turn people to Him rather than just capriciously zapping people with lightning bolts. God's "direct wrath" comes after all have clearly heard the Gospel from the angel flying through the air and have all been given a chance to either accept or reject His offer of forgiveness. I am saddened by people who keep saying, "time's up! God's about to zap you!" with seeming glee and pride that they have accepted Him when all those heathens out there haven't. These heathens haven't been converted TO OUR SHAME (1 Cor 15:34). The church has failed them. Yet God is merciful on us sinners who have failed to proclaim His Gospel to the nations, and I believe He will be merciful to those who haven't heard the Good News and will give them a chance to come to a saving knowledge of Him. I don't think He just kills them on day 1. He will do abundantly more than we could ask or imagine for our loved ones left behind. We have been taught that anyone who doesn't know God by an appointed time will be killed in horrible, painful ways, and anyone who DOES decide to follow Christ will be forced to choose martyrdom or eternal damnation through the mark of the beast. I don't see either of these in the text though. People keep asking, "what is the purpose of the tribulation?" The answer: 1) to save the unsaved, primarily the Jews, 2) to pour out wrath on the truly evil beings who have been in control of our earth. No, it's not going to be a walk in the park for those left behind, which is why we should do our best to share the Gospel now. But since the PURPOSE of the trial is mercy and salvation, it will not be more than anyone who chooses the Lord can bear. God's wrath is very easy to explain once you look at Matt 25 The '1/3' portion described in Trumpets 1-4 is Satan being cast out of 'heaven' (on earth). It is not an amount of damage per se. The 'kingdom of heaven' that is mentioned in Matt 25:1 is on earth. There are 3 portions: heaven, sea, & earth. Trumpets 1-4 is Satan being kicked out of 'heaven' (on earth), leaving behind 'woe, woe, woe to the sea & earth: ie the beast from the sea & beast from the earth. There is no 'whisked away' rapture. All people that have 'called upon the name of the Lord' (Joel 2:32) have been saved (the 10 virgins from above). Notice in verse 5 above, it says that Jesus is delayed. People see Jesus return, but he is purposefully delaying taking control of the world which occurs at the start of the 7th Trumpet. This bit from Matt 24 is the 6th Seal, then the 'day of the Lord/ day of the Lord's wrath' starts at the Trumpets. (the first 4 trumpets indicating Satan is removed from the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth). The Day of the Lord kicks Satan out of heaven (on earth) (1/3 out of the 3 portions) and ends the 'great tribulation' for the elect's sake. (it only lasts for 45 days). People 'don't repent' at the 6th Trumpet: it is not all people on 'earth', it is excluding the 5 wise virgins who are safe in the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth). Why does it say that 'they don't repent'? Rev 2 Jezebel is the unfaithful apostate church that is thrown back into the great tribulation - the 5 foolish virgins, after being saved in the 'day of the Lord' along with the 5 wise virgins, (both the wise & foolish virgins are saved because they have 'called on the name of the Lord') are joined with Jezebel. Jezebel was given 'time to repent' (the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet from the start of the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth) (caused by Satan being kicked out of the 'kingdom of heaven on earth', the 1/3 portion referenced in Trumpets 1-4). But then they are thrown back into it at the 6th Trumpet when they 'don't repent'. The 7th Trumpet/ 7 bowls of wrath destroys the beast from the sea & earth kingdoms. I disagree with Satan’s wrath starting his fall to earth at trumpet 1-4. Though the verse says woe to the inhabitants....the devil has come down to you... His entering in a trumpet doesn’t make sense because he gives the beast his seat and power. This has to be done prior to the trumpets as it was already setup. Secondly, Satan is cast out when he begins to attack the women and THEN she goes into hiding the last 3.5 years. Those years are the trumpets or parts of them. Satan comes down before them. Thirdly, Satan’s wrath must cover portions of the seals because the beast exists then as it is now being taken over by the man of sin who does miracles with his power! Satan’s wrath begins at seal 1 after Christ takes the deed to earth and Satan is about to lose as god of this earth, prince of the air |
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Post by mike on May 11, 2018 12:56:59 GMT -6
blur - can't say I can agree with you in your last reply. Why is it that we should apply the parables of the ten virgins to the end times when Jesus was speaking to the Jews about His first coming? We must read scripture in the context it was originally intended, not apply it where we think it fits best. I dont mean to sound dismissive of your reply but it is not the context and we continue to apply this to believers not believing enough, or walking straight enough or not worthy enough, when it was intended for the Pharisees, etc. I can agree He switches gears in 25:31 to the second coming EDIT - Please read this post in this thread where a brief explanation of why I state this is given. socalexile often has fantastic insight to interpreting things like this in the context they were written. EDIT 2 - since my link only takes you to the page I've copied the brief explanation of Matt 25 here " The Parable of the Ten Virgins is a midrash teaching by Jesus on Song of Solomon, primarily chapters 3 and 5. It isn't about those in the church (which didn't exist yet) who had more faithful works than others. It's about those who believed in Christ and those who didn't. SoS 1-4 is about those who believe (Jews and Gentiles), who are raptured; SoS 5-8 is about those who didn't believe (the Jews) who missed the Messiah and face the 70th Week. The oil represents the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who believe in abundance.
Matthew is written to the Jews to testify of Christ as their King and Messiah. It is not to be applied to believing Gentiles, of which the offer of salvation wasn't given yet until the time of Acts 10."
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Post by venge on May 11, 2018 14:09:42 GMT -6
blur - can't say I can agree with you in your last reply. Why is it that we should apply the parables of the ten virgins to the end times when Jesus was speaking to the Jews about His first coming? We must read scripture in the context it was originally intended, not apply it where we think it fits best. I dont mean to sound dismissive of your reply but it is not the context and we continue to apply this to believers not believing enough, or walking straight enough or not worthy enough, when it was intended for the Pharisees, etc. I can agree He switches gears in 25:31 to the second coming EDIT - Please read this post in this thread where a brief explanation of why I state this is given. socalexile often has fantastic insight to interpreting things like this in the context they were written. EDIT 2 - since my link only takes you to the page I've copied the brief explanation of Matt 25 here " The Parable of the Ten Virgins is a midrash teaching by Jesus on Song of Solomon, primarily chapters 3 and 5. It isn't about those in the church (which didn't exist yet) who had more faithful works than others. It's about those who believed in Christ and those who didn't. SoS 1-4 is about those who believe (Jews and Gentiles), who are raptured; SoS 5-8 is about those who didn't believe (the Jews) who missed the Messiah and face the 70th Week. The oil represents the Holy Spirit, and is given to those who believe in abundance.
Matthew is written to the Jews to testify of Christ as their King and Messiah. It is not to be applied to believing Gentiles, of which the offer of salvation wasn't given yet until the time of Acts 10." Mike, Gotta disagree on your oil. Proverbs states oil is wisdom. That’s why 5 virgins without oil failed. They had no wisdom and in such they kept on iniquity. Remember the song ...read ur bible pray every day and you’ll grow grow grow. Reading increases wisdom. It is the oil |
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Post by disciple4life on May 11, 2018 14:13:31 GMT -6
This is a very fascinating, "Urgent Prophecy update - by J D Farag" and he gives some great clarity regarding the pre-tribulation rapture, and the 7 year tribulation.
He also gives some mind-numbing Old-testament parallels of the rapture, including the Hebrew wedding customs that goes back thousands of years, and other incredible Old-testament pictures/ types of the rapture. Fast forward to about the 55:00 or 57:00 minute mark.
Amazing. Maranatha.
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. I will edit that... thanks!
