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Post by venge on May 9, 2018 16:35:23 GMT -6
Haha been there! 😉
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 9, 2018 17:18:11 GMT -6
Not to derail the thread, but witness1 asked me a couple questions earlier page 4?, that I will answer here. It could be copied and put somewhere else, especially if these answers really runaway with the theme like a pike on the end of 2 pound testline..(for you fishing enthusiasts).. hmm, is my first reply because, does anyone WITH CONFIDENCE, know who these elders are? BY definition on wikipedia it has to do with older people: a person of greater age than someone specified. I am considering that Rev 4 and 5 are written in chronological order just by the nature of how it flows..John sees a throne and One sitting on the throne, but I do not think this is Jesus because this One has the scroll that is Sealed and no one is worthy to open it....UNTIL...da ta daa! Jesus shows up (ch 5) (sees the Lamb as if He were slain) I think John is seeing a replay of the event that happened when Jesus was seated at the Right Hand of the Father. The elders are there before Jesus arrives..that is how I am reading it. So these elders are a set of 24, which is 2 x 12, it is not divisible by 7 (which seems to be associated with church stuff) so I am thinking this has to do with God's servants of the past (sons of Jacob? what about including the 12 princes of Ishmael? God also blessed them to become a great nation), these 24 are before the rapture because they are "old" or "elder"..these are before the Death and Resurrection, based on what I said earlier about John not seeing the Lamb then seeing the Lamb. I am totally looking at this my ownself by my own study. I do not know who agree with me on this. I am just applying a little logic and definition to the elements and progression of what John sees to come to rule out that the elders are not part of the rapture. Because after this Rapture event we dont suffer physical death anymore, we are not capable of going back to that flesh curse..plus, if you SAW Jesus would you ever want to NOT believe? and we are with Him no doubt and where ever He goes we can go or wherever He sends us He can send us (see Ezek 44) here is the part that I see as doing the work of the Lord after we have put on immortality: 17“It shall be that when they enter at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and wool shall not be on them while they are ministering in the gates of the inner court and in the house. 18“Linen turbans shall be on their heads and linen undergarments shall be on their loins; they shall not gird themselves with anything which makes them sweat. 19“When they go out into the outer court, into the outer court to the people, they shall put off their garments in which they have been ministering and lay them in the holy chambers; then they shall put on other garments so that they will not transmit holiness to the people with their garments.(I think I answered that in reviewing what I see in Genesis, but to say this, it is not some odd form. He is Hidden which I attribute as His Glory spiritual dimension that we also once had before the Fall. Adam HID from God. I think there is a whole lot of evidence to Jesus being very much closer than we think: and, Trinity speaking, could this be considered the Holy Spirit form?) Well, this is part of peeling apart the Law in the OT and what was demonstrated to real people as a foreshadowing to what it will take for the Kingdom of God, with Jesus Reigning over it, overcoming the lawless kingdoms that are in place right now. There are bond-servants and saints..and angels of the Lord all working together for the Lord in this upcoming destruction of the beast systems and kingdoms. This I can not answer. He is in Heaven seated at the Throne which I attribute to His being given Authority. Jesus has the title deed to the earth as he purchased it with HIs death and resurrection. But who really knows how far up in the air Heaven is? But to prepare, it makes me think the Work of the Holy Spirit that He sent us as His Helper. This created and is creating a HUGE YUGE number of annointed souls. The word " Preparing "I am gonna toss this out there as that there is going to be a span of time before He can just come back to reign. the wheat and the tares have to grow up together, all kinds of stuff has to be allowed to happen, physically & spiritually. Rev 12 and 13 demonstrate the spiritual warfare that has been and will be happening. Many rooms makes me think that not all of us do the same thing as His bond-servant. please know I do not have scripture organized, I am answering freely here from my heart... OK, yes. thanks for reminding me, I may have misspoke my comment on this event. Yet, it did happen. He disappeared and reappeared elsewhere. Make me go hmmm.. Yes, can totally agree here. And there are other players spreading the Gospel, no? witnesses? have not studied Ruth enough personally, but have only been told by others what the story means. You seem to be repeating or saying the same thing as to what others have told me it means. and I can see the parallels. And no doubt, there is SOOOOO much that was played out in the OT that applies to today and to this 2nd Coming.. God has His Law, Word, and Way buried/hidden in the events of the OT..some are obvious to see, others are more intricate and have deeper meaning.. I think you and I understand this. |
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Post by venge on May 9, 2018 17:56:18 GMT -6
Nice write up! I have not answered witness on the 24 because I don’t feel like writing up a response on a pre Trib forum to get attacked, or I would as the 24 is to them their answer to the pre Trib rapture. Could you imagine if the 24 were not the church.....😵
I have started my own study of it with different bible versions, pre Trib and not pre Trib commentaries as well as looking at the Greek.
Although I have more Understanding now than I did before, posting it here we’re only cause people to light it up.
Your Initial review of the 24 elders, and how they appear before Christ enters is Part of my research.
Other things that are interesting is that both of them sing together. That is the elders and the living creatures called beast in another text.
Then, why are there prayers of the Saints if the Saints are all raptured into heaven with the 24 elders being the church? Whose prayers are they if everyone’s in heaven. It can’t be the tribulation saints because Christ has not opened the seals yet.
There’s a laundry list of issues that arise assuming the 24 elders are some type of church. I know this is what people want to believe, but just wanted to believe it is not good enough to make it actually real. Even people like J Vernon McGee and Walvoord, and pre-tribulation all ministries throughout United States which I have looked at their commentaries have noted that they have faced many troubles in regards to the 24 elders and whether or not they are the church and whether or not the translation in the King James version is correct.
I’ll stop there for now. Once I’m done with my research if you want me to send it to you in a PM I will.
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Post by mike on May 9, 2018 18:46:26 GMT -6
venge - you are predetermining that your sharing of something would lead to being attacked and torn to pieces, without sharing it. Do you think this is fair? Are others disagreeing with you or questioning your position as attacking? I disagree if that is the stance. You are free to share or not to share but please do not judge others responses before they have opportunity to hear what you say. How boring would it be if everyone agreed with you all the time 😉
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 9, 2018 21:57:55 GMT -6
I agree with mike here, venge . If you lay out a case for how you have come about to understand God's Word, based on Scripture interpreting Scripture, of course, then have Faith, my brother! Truly, some people have really gotten me to think and understand where they come to interpret and I WILL CONSIDER their position based on how they deliver their thoughts. Earlier this year there were a few members here that always seemed to be shouting. Also always seemed combative, over used the bigger fonts or colors so as to "help" make a point. Funny thing is, later on, someone else comes along with a humble, patient tone presenting the same stuff and I actually have a chance to consider their position on a matter. Its all in the delivery. Its okay to be determined that what you see is fully backed by scripture, all well and good, this is what this forum is about. It just comes down to readable tone. We are not face to face to see the expressions, or hear the inflection in a voice, or to discern a concerned tone verses a bitter tone. As a reader it really helps to establish the mood. Blogs and threads are the hardest way to have fellowship, so...there ya go! my 10 cents on the matter.. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 9, 2018 22:23:06 GMT -6
Even if the 24 elders were there before Christ arrive does not negate a pre-trib rapure position. It depends on how one views the seals in general. Why would Jesus NOT go to opening the seals upon arrival to the throne? What would keep Him from wanting to open them right away? He was found worthy right away when John was weeping about it.
AND, no one ever seems to answer this question of mine: The first 4 seals are not all that "tragic" in the sense of Big T and Big W.. And why is a rider on a white horse ALWAYS thought of as the Antichrist? Is it not the Helper, the Holy Spirit? He goes out to conquer, but we are not told what he is to conquer and a crown and a bow seem to be he is a worthy rider and given a rather meek tool, a bow and not a sword..Following that comes the red horse rider to do the opposite of the Holy Spirit white horse rider. No one has ever answered me and if they did, it was way on another page and I must have missed it.
3rd seal scales: Judgement coming? And 3 elements are measured or not hurt that match Rev 14...barley wheat and wine. Sounds like to me the Lord is telling us in advance that there is a price for being Barley, Wheat and HE personally handles the annointed (oil) and the WINE pressing? that is why the rider is not to hurt the oil (annointed) or the wine, those that suffer the Big W wrath?, or dont hurt the annointed or the winepress folks because that part of the seal happens later..in the meantime, must weigh out or measure the barley and wheat over 1900 years...
4th Seal ashen horse rider given authority to kill a 4th with various elements, all of which have been happening thruout the centuries.
the Seals to me are part of Christ's deeds to procure His Kingdom reign on earth and I think it started when He was seated at the Right Hand of the Father..but that's just me..we all will know soon, eh?
Love all of you deeply as a joyful sister in Christ!
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Post by venge on May 10, 2018 4:12:50 GMT -6
Even if the 24 elders were there before Christ arrive does not negate a pre-trib rapure position. It depends on how one views the seals in general. Why would Jesus NOT go to opening the seals upon arrival to the throne? What would keep Him from wanting to open them right away? He was found worthy right away when John was weeping about it. AND, no one ever seems to answer this question of mine: The first 4 seals are not all that "tragic" in the sense of Big T and Big W.. And why is a rider on a white horse ALWAYS thought of as the Antichrist? Is it not the Helper, the Holy Spirit? He goes out to conquer, but we are not told what he is to conquer and a crown and a bow seem to be he is a worthy rider and given a rather meek tool, a bow and not a sword..Following that comes the red horse rider to do the opposite of the Holy Spirit white horse rider. No one has ever answered me and if they did, it was way on another page and I must have missed it. 3rd seal scales: Judgement coming? And 3 elements are measured or not hurt that match Rev 14...barley wheat and wine. Sounds like to me the Lord is telling us in advance that there is a price for being Barley, Wheat and HE personally handles the annointed (oil) and the WINE pressing? that is why the rider is not to hurt the oil (annointed) or the wine, those that suffer the Big W wrath?, or dont hurt the annointed or the winepress folks because that part of the seal happens later..in the meantime, must weigh out or measure the barley and wheat over 1900 years... 4th Seal ashen horse rider given authority to kill a 4th with various elements, all of which have been happening thruout the centuries. the Seals to me are part of Christ's deeds to procure His Kingdom reign on earth and I think it started when He was seated at the Right Hand of the Father..but that's just me..we all will know soon, eh? Love all of you deeply as a joyful sister in Christ! Barbie, I would answer the white horse rider as AC because: 1. His bow is absent of arrows. He comes in peace 2. His white horse and crown and peace symbolize Christ 3. But, he goes forth with these symbols conquering Leads me to believe all the character traits of the man of sin. Comes in peaceful with deceit he takes the beast kingdom as the 11th horn. He removes 3 horns by conquering. It causes the red horse, green pale horse and black to emerge. Remember he cannot be revealed till he scatters the power of the holy people. If Jesus was opening the seal and it was his wrath, why would He want the power of His people scattered as He is the one to give it. And if he calls all to salvation even then...why scatter it? His opening of the seals is not his wrath as it does not follow Joel, Zephaniah, Revelation, Matthew or Luke. With the 24 elders, they were not part of the 12 apostles cause John didn’t see himself or recognize any of them  some people say this. The 24 elders speak in a way that separates themselves from those entering heaven. If they were fellow brothers, why speak differently. They sit on 24 thrones for them. If it is the church....there are millions. Why 24 seats? Only 24 sit. Why are the millions absent from the vision? He see thousands of angels but 24 elders? If rapture happened shouldn’t it be noted such and mirror Rev 6-7? |
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 4:23:15 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , thank you for answering all of my questions. They are hard for me to accept right away, but I will pray on and consider these things. I need to go back and find what you wrote about Genesis... that part especially is intriguing to me. There was a day where many comments were made that I was out running errands or something, and I missed a lot on this thread As far as your question about what keeps Jesus from opening the scrolls right away... I would love your thoughts on this article about the distinct phases of Jesus' ministry as prophet, priest, and king. The basic idea is that, although He is of course all three, He did not come to earth the first time as a king. He came as a prophet, and His ministry took that role for 3.5 years. After He completed the role of prophet, He began His role as priest. After His death and resurrection, He ascended to the right hand of the Father as our priest, entering the inner place behind the curtain, always making intercession for us. He could not have moved into His role as priest until His death, for at that point daily sacrifices were no longer needed since He did this once for all people (Hebrews 7:27). But the role as priest is more than just the one-time sacrifice. As He told Peter, our feet need to continually be washed. We need to continually repent of our sin. The Levitical priests are a foreshadowing of this... they washed once completely upon entering service (which baptism symbolizes... our anointing as priests), but then there were still frequent partial washings in the priesthood. And we need to be partially washed until we put on the incorruptible. So Jesus, sitting at the right hand of God, ever lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25) and to minister to His body who needs frequent partial foot washings. And the idea is that, just like He transitioned from prophet to priest at a certain point in time, He will transition to King at a certain point as well. Although He was worthy to open the scrolls as soon as He ascended 2000 years ago, He had a role to fulfill in ministering to His bride as a priest. But there must be a point where He transitions to King. I think this transition begins when His bride has arrived in heaven as the 24 elders and He opens the scrolls. Then the tribulation is a transition period to this role as King, which comes at the 7th trumpet when, "you have taken your power and begun to reign (Rev 11:17)". This comes after there is no one on earth who worships Him except the 144,000 (Rev 9:20)- there is no one on earth He needs to intercede for since somehow the 144,000 follow Him wherever He goes (very confused on that part). And notice the beauty that is written on His thigh when He comes to earth on the white horse... the point where this transition to King is complete: "On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (Rev 19:16)". He will take the role of King soon!!! But right now He is thankfully sitting down interceding for us. www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1712-missing-piece.htm
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 4:49:49 GMT -6
Yes, there are millions in the church. But this gives a good explanation about the number 24: Although there are a handful of miscellaneous references to the number 24 scattered throughout the Old Testament, there are only two usages of the number that are pertinent to the 24 elders because these two references are intimately related to service, praise, and worship in the temple. That's what the 24 elders are involved in. The design of and the activites in the earthly temple were a model of the throne room in heaven and what transpires therein, and so the following two usages of the number 24 are especially sigificant to the 24 elders around the throne in the book of Revelation, where John has the opportunity to visit the real deal: (a) In 1 Chronicles 24, King David divided all the priests who worked in the temple into 24 divisions called "courses." There were no doubt hundreds of priests, but they were all represented in these 24 courses. Thus, the number 24 signifies a completed group. There wasn't a twenty-fifth division in some other location. (b) In 1 Chronicles 25, David did something along the same lines with the musicians and singers who led praise in the temple. There were hundreds of musicians and singers, but he divided them all into 24 divisions. Again, 24 signifies a completed group. Same deal: There wasn't a twenty-fifth division somewhere else. So, if we are willing to let Scripture interpret Scripture, the fact that there are 24 elders signifies that whoever or whatever they are, they represent a completed group. www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1711-elders-revisited.htm |
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 4:53:26 GMT -6
Thinking about Exekiel 44... a very interesting passage indeed! Wondering though whether this trans-dimensional movement happens during the millenium and not the tribulation? Thinking about how Jesus left the earth for (2? 3? 3.5? days) until He rose from the grave, and then it was at that point where His glorified body walked through walls and such. Would it make sense to follow His pattern? That we leave earth the dimension of earth completely for a short time and then come back in bodies that are capable of moving amongst the various dimensions like Jesus? Is there anything in Ezekiel 44 that suggests this must happen during the events of Revelation and not afterward?
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Post by venge on May 10, 2018 7:49:33 GMT -6
Yes, there are millions in the church. But this gives a good explanation about the number 24: Although there are a handful of miscellaneous references to the number 24 scattered throughout the Old Testament, there are only two usages of the number that are pertinent to the 24 elders because these two references are intimately related to service, praise, and worship in the temple. That's what the 24 elders are involved in. The design of and the activites in the earthly temple were a model of the throne room in heaven and what transpires therein, and so the following two usages of the number 24 are especially sigificant to the 24 elders around the throne in the book of Revelation, where John has the opportunity to visit the real deal: (a) In 1 Chronicles 24, King David divided all the priests who worked in the temple into 24 divisions called "courses." There were no doubt hundreds of priests, but they were all represented in these 24 courses. Thus, the number 24 signifies a completed group. There wasn't a twenty-fifth division in some other location. (b) In 1 Chronicles 25, David did something along the same lines with the musicians and singers who led praise in the temple. There were hundreds of musicians and singers, but he divided them all into 24 divisions. Again, 24 signifies a completed group. Same deal: There wasn't a twenty-fifth division somewhere else. So, if we are willing to let Scripture interpret Scripture, the fact that there are 24 elders signifies that whoever or whatever they are, they represent a completed group. www.alittlestrength.com/articles/2017/1711-elders-revisited.htmI agree with the idea the 24 represent worship and praise. I also agree with the idea of their white robes and crowns. To me, they represent redeemed men. But this representation is not conclusive of a rapture imo. Just as the 4 living creatures represent Jews, they are not specific Jews, they are not raptured Jews being separate from others are they? But they are a representation. When they are shown there is nothing showing an event that was taught throughout scripture. Nothing preceded them...how odd. For it to be rapture, wouldn’t a text say Christ cane in the clouds? Would it say a trump was heard? Would it say the voice of an archangel? Would it say in the clouds? Would it say raised the dead?? Yet none of that happens preceding the 24. How odd! The most miraculous talked about and preached event promised to those who believe and nothing written on the 24. Think about that! Pre Trib says, because we can’t find the church in Revelation after the 24, it must be them. Because I can’t see it, therefore it must be. That is bad logic. Now, there are logical things used to support that theory ie. Crowns, robes etc..
But those are given to all who believe. Moses, Aaron, the disciples..So that doesn’t explain them. Angels also wear white robes.
Another issue is because part A fits, part B fits too. Bad logic. If one part of pre Trib is correct...great! That doesn’t mean all pre Trib is right entirely. That goes for all doctrine.
If the 24 are the church and they raptured before he opens the seals, how do we get around to falling away? The people can’t be scattered till AC scatters them. He doesn’t come in before the seals. So there are HOLY PEOPLE still on earth. Cause their holy, they will be raptured. They aren’t 144k cause they are scattered to allow the ma of sin to show his face. That poses a logical problem then.
If the rapture happened, how do we understand Christ wasn’t there, but they were. Then they see a lamb stained. Then they worship him. Then he takes the book. Then he opens the seals. One thing is missing!!!!!!!! When does he leave to meet us in the clouds? He is still in heaven, he just got there! Problem! |
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Post by witness1 on May 10, 2018 9:00:25 GMT -6
I’ve never heard the idea that the 4 living creatures represent Jews. Where does that idea come from?
I don’t see a problem with Jesus not being there for a few minutes. The elders are there being introduced to the throne room of heaven, and then Jesus appears in their midst. It doesn’t mean that was the first time he appeared in heaven after His ascension... it just means He was in a different place for awhile. What’s not to say He drops us off at the throne room, goes to take care of something, and then comes back? Are you saying you think that moment Jesus appears is the very first time He went back to heaven? How would that work since Revelation was written a considerable time after that?
The rapture is depicted in Rev 4:1 with the open door and the voice of a trumpet:
1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."
2 At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne. - Revelation 4:1-2
This immediately preceeds the introduction of the 24 elders, and the Philadelphia church is promised an open door:
"'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. - Revelation 3:8
No, it is not spelled out, “and then Jesus went and got His bride in the clouds and took them to heaven before the tribulation started.” That would be giving away the plan to the enemy. Things are coded so that those who are spiritual may interpret spiritual things and so that Satan will still be in the dark. But, if you choose to see it, there is an open door to heaven with the voice of a trumpet (so yes a trumpet is heard like you asked for) saying, “Come up here” immediately before the scrolls are opened.
6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.
7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - 1 Corinthians 2:6-8
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 10, 2018 9:20:32 GMT -6
If we go on too much on this topic we will have to go to where we were talking about who are the 144,000 John 14:3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
1Thes 4:17Then we, the living remaining, will be caught away together with them in the clouds for the meeting of the Lord in the air; and so we will be always with the Lord.Let me toss this out there witness1... I have wondered why folks apply exact, physical, interpretation of the 144,000 while allowing the spiritual interpretation to other parts of Revelation? (hmmm, those darn hermeneutics is my guess) Based on the sealing on the forehead (anointing?) of them and your exact confusion about how can they follow Jesus wherever He goes is why I am considering that the 144,000 are 12 x 12 x 1000 witnesses...and your lesson on the number of 24 could apply here, since we are talking 12's. I see 144,000 as double the "apostles" the "called" times 1000 meaning a multitude. Witnessing for Jesus, a major discipling on steroids. Yes there is 12,000 from each "tribe" but I believe there is something WAY more spiritual/historical here than God using ancestry dot com to find his tribe members to seal.. A fellow Christ-follower suggested to me that the phrase "not defiled with women" or are virgins in some translations, is that they are not defiled by religion. Which religion? Many like to equate the Woman with modern day Israel. hmmm... so these witnesses are NOT jewish then...hmmm.. Again, still testing these thoughts thru prayer and scripture. Especially this meaning for the "women" part of the 144,000. This 144, 000 fit the barley harvest based on Rev 14 and other places in the NT where the Paul says, all creation groans for the revealing of the Sons of God..Revealing, sealing, all these things are NOT involving Tribulation per se, ( the 2nd reeping does involve tribulation, and the 3rd involves wrath). I equate these things of Barley/Revealing/Sealing, annointing to the Rapture we so long for..just like creation, we also groan for this revealing: look how many threads are on Unsealed about this whole thing! I am being quick here and doing this all from memory. I attribute the Sons of God to the 1st rapture harvest, bond-servants who do some miraculous things for the Lord to prepare the multitude for the reeping of the Wheat. Psalm 83 seems to suggest that these "hidden" are not a secret thing. 3They make shrewd plans against Your people,
And conspire together against Your treasured (hidden) ones. The (wheat) multitude later seen and what John is supposed to know who they are already is the Wheat having come out of the tribulation. The fact that John knows who they are could indicate that the 144,000 had something to do with this multitude.. btw, Harvesting wheat is similar to barley physically, but wheat has a tougher straw shaft, takes more to thresh it. You all are gonna think I need to have my temperature taken at this point..lol I may get some major comments derailing this thread, so if we need to lets take this back to the 144,000 thread, or even so, perhaps open a thread about the Harvest raptures.. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 10, 2018 9:28:49 GMT -6
because of this Rev 1: 19“Therefore write the things which you have seen (past tense), and the things which are (currently going on), and the things which will take place (future yet) after these things.
and, John reporting this: 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet
Revelation is not all future to me, but rather about Past, present and future.. John is in the Spirit, so to me this means that much of what he sees is not exactly physical..
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 10, 2018 9:31:29 GMT -6
AMEN!!!!!!
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some people say this.