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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 5:38:42 GMT -6
Daniel 12:2 may or may not just be about the Jews, but it clearly ISN'T the rapture. At the rapture, only the dead in Christ rise. In Daniel 12:2, some awake to shame and everlasting contempt. I cannot ignore that it is a resurrection and before it, it says everyone written in the book. It also says the dead will rise and multitudes will get everlasting life. With those 2 details, we cannot discount it as the rapture speaks the same. |
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Post by witness1 on May 8, 2018 5:53:14 GMT -6
Even though the rapture clearly says, "the dead in CHRIST will rise"? I get that it doesn't necessarily exclude a resurrection to everlasting contempt happening simultaneously, but why explain the rapture at all if it's just a plain resurrection? Why not say, "those of us who are alive at the resurrection of the dead will go to heaven with those who go to heaven"? It seems like the rapture is solely a resurrection to heaven.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 5:58:09 GMT -6
Even though the rapture clearly says, "the dead in CHRIST will rise"? I get that it doesn't necessarily exclude a resurrection to everlasting contempt happening simultaneously, but why explain the rapture at all if it's just a plain resurrection? Why not say, "those of us who are alive at the resurrection of the dead will go to heaven with those who go to heaven"? It seems like the rapture is solely a resurrection to heaven. Heaven? It says to meet him in the clouds and we will ever be with the Lord. Heaven is not mentioned. It is something hoped for. Maybe I’m missing a verse to support heaven from rapture but I don’t remember any |
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Post by witness1 on May 8, 2018 5:59:04 GMT -6
But Jesus is in heaven, is He not?
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2018 5:59:17 GMT -6
Daniel 12:2 may or may not just be about the Jews, but it clearly ISN'T the rapture. At the rapture, only the dead in Christ rise. In Daniel 12:2, some awake to shame and everlasting contempt. Correct. 2 resurrections, but the first resurrection (for the redeemed) is in 2 parts. First, the rapture of the church BEFORE the Tribulation. The dead in Christ rise first, then the living go up. At the end of the tribulation, part 2... the Trib Saints are raised. The second resurrection is for the unbelieving dead at the end of the Millennium/White Throne judgement. |
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2018 6:00:48 GMT -6
But Jesus is in heaven, is He not? Correct again! ..."that where I am, you may be also". Where is he? Heaven! That's where we are going...soon! Before the Tribulation! |
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2018 6:18:34 GMT -6
This thread is getting squirrely and has deviated far from Psalm 83. I'm surprised Mike hasn't cut us off. However, I want to clearly communicate: Daniel knew nothing about the Church and the angel did not tell him. "Thy people" are Daniel's people...the Jews. The text is clear that they will be raised at the end of the tribulation... First resurrection: Part 1: Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church...dead in Christ + living Church. Part 2: Post-Trib raising of the dead in Christ...all saved during the tribulation both Jews and Gentiles. This cannot be called a "rapture". Second resurrection: Post-Millennial for the unbelieving dead for the White Throne judgement This constitutes the Pre-Trib doctrine held by the majority of Pre-Tribbers. www.gotquestions.org/resurrection-first-second.html |
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 6:24:42 GMT -6
Sorry, I disagree very much. Jesus is not in heaven when he comes, he’s in the clouds with power and glory.
I would caution saying post Trib is not rapture invalidating very solid research.
Edit: you also just gave 3 resurrections!
Saints, Trib saints and millennium peoples.
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2018 6:31:16 GMT -6
Of course He is coming in the clouds...Pre-Trib doctine affirms it. But we do not stay in the clouds for 7 years. He takes us to the throne room of God.
Post-Trib or Pre-Wrath is incorrect doctrine in my estimation. What can I tell you? You may believe what you want to believe. I'll stick with Pre-trib truth. Not invalidating you, just saying I (and millions of Holy Spirit filled Christians) believe something different.
We agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that, because we aren't edifying anyone going around in circles here.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 6:49:24 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2018 7:45:22 GMT -6
This thread is getting squirrely and has deviated far from Psalm 83. I'm surprised Mike hasn't cut us off. However, I want to clearly communicate: I was going to try and separate stuff into a different thread (or two) but didn't know where to begin!  |
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Post by mike on May 8, 2018 8:05:13 GMT -6
Am I the bully? I've been following along and see that BSG and Nat are here participating.
I do agree this has gone off the thread topic and most of the last two pages can be moved. If the OP doesn't mind then it's ok to continue
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Post by fitz on May 8, 2018 8:15:33 GMT -6
Am I the bully? I've been following along and see that BSG and Nat are here participating. I do agree this has gone off the thread topic and most of the last two pages can be moved. If the OP doesn't mind then it's ok to continue LOL. You, a bully? Never! But you do like to keep things organized. A good thing. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 8, 2018 8:37:02 GMT -6
I move to say that the thread is on a very stretched, fine fishing line... for catching crappies...
stormyknight was referencing the 'hidden' and we are on that topic of hidden/raptured peoples...but clearly this has become a rapture topic and not a Psalm 83 topic... so perhaps the whole thread should be moved to the Rapture category...
Who really knows where Heaven is? Way out there past Jupiter? Within the atmosphere of earth? Lets see what we have in scripture:
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven.
9Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas
14Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”;
From what I gather, the heavens could include everything from above land all the way to the farthest reaches of what Hubble can show us...
How about this thread be moved to a new category: Topics that go astray...
when God was with Adam and Eve, and they Fell, did they FALL? They lost their glory and became naked with shame.. they were cast out of the Garden...Was the Garden of Eden then in heaven? It does not appear so based on the rest of what we read in Genesis 1...
Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?” 10He said, “I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself.” 11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked?
21The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
In Revelation at the end of the book we see the same objects, namely the Tree of Life! We also have unshamed, no longer naked bodies, with the Lord. It is the Garden episode in reverse, no more curse, is it not? Just saying, His Will be done ON EARTH, as it is in Heaven... and heaven by scriptures in Genesis 1 is the expanse from above the sea and land out to where the lights are..that is how I am seeing it..
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Post by witness1 on May 8, 2018 10:58:11 GMT -6
venge , in understanding the resurrections, I think it is helpful to think of them in terms of the harvest feasts and the way the harvests worked. I started a visual aid on this about 6 months ago but never finished it. Here is a crude explanation though. I am still studying how the barley, wheat, and grapes relate to this. 1) Firstfruits are offered to God. -There has already been a small resurrection from the dead with Jesus and the others who rose with Him. This was the "first fruits" of the first resurrection. You say there are only 2 resurrections... how do you account for this one??? 2) The main harvest - This will be the rapture of those who are alive (and the resurrection of the dead in Christ) at the beginning of the tribulation. 3) The outer 10% gleaning - God commanded His people not to reap all the way to the edges of the field in order to provide for the poor and the sojourner. This is what we see depicted in the book of Ruth. - This will be the tribulation saints... the final gleanings of the harvest. When these resurrect, this is the completion of "the first resurrection." The first resurrection includes the first fruits (Jesus and others), the main harvest (rapture), and the outer 10% (tribulation saints). This is the first resurrection.
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