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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 11:23:08 GMT -6
But Jesus is in heaven, is He not? I was invited to read this thread. I have been reading it through over the last couple of days and find a lot of the information interesting and some of it stretched, like 1 thessalonians 4:17: "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."I know venge and barbiosheepgirl both question this verse as to where it says heaven? I am also a believer in the Kingdom of God being on Earth with Jesus on Earth with us. Both of them are correct to do so because it does not at all mean heaven in that verse (which in the original language clearly defines Heaven as upper atmosphere or even beyond that. Don't take my word for it however, look it up). The word clouds in the Greek as a transliteration: nephelé: a cloud (literally only means clouds. Not above the Earth in space or some other dimension somewhere, but clouds like the ones in our skies right now. Jesus comes in the clouds and we meet him in the clouds because that is where He is. This passage does not say meet in Him in the clouds and then go up to heaven. The Greek word that is used for clouds is derived from: nephos. This word is rather interesting as it's meaning is A) Neuter B) A noun white Nephele is A) Feminine and B) A noun and the definition is (which is the most interesting part to me at least) a cloud; met: a dense crowd, a multitude, great company.
Paul was a fantastic writer and very intelligent, far more than most of us are, which is why some of his writings are hard to read and understand. Since this "Rule" of bible interpretation was brought to my attention in a response to another thread here a little while ago, I am going to use this proper or highly suggested (Who came up with this?) way of interpreting the bible (according to man anyways...) and use it on this verse and Heaven being inserted where it does not belong and imo stretching this verse (that is not in anyway directed towards you witness1, just the popular theorie taught on this verse). HERMENEUTICS: THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION
WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY (LIKE THE WORD CLOUD...), ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE. A. SEEK THE PLAIN, LITERAL MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURES
1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible. 2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual." 3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term. 4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis. 5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning. B. SEEK THE FIGURATIVE MEANING ONLY WHEN THE FACTS
DEMAND SUCH AN INTERPRETATION
(What? How can this be a rule or guideline if there is absolutely no definition of choosing and separating what is and isn't figurative or fact? By this rule it is basically saying to guess)1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa. (IS THAT NOT WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THE ABOVE PASSAGE OR MAYBE EVEN WORSE BY INSERTING A WORD AND A MEANING THAT IS NOT EVEN THERE  ??) Not using caps and bold for yelling incase that is takes it that way, just using it to make a point. Here are my questions regarding as to why this passage is interpreted to mean going to heaven and that is what we do while possibly half or more of our family members, friends, and loved ones are here going through hell of Earth while we sit back and do what exactly? I mean these questions genuinely and am trying real hard to not be as blunt as I usually am.
1. Where in the bible does it say what we are supposed to be doing in Heaven while everyones else back on Earth are suffering immensely? At least to my knowledge it doesn't. If anyone knows, please help me out here. 2. Paul states this is a mystery that is being revealed, however did not indicate that there is another mystery immediately following the first one that cannot be revealed such as us going to heaven w/ Christ and what we would be doing up there for 7 years (I definitely didn't see that in any of his writings come to think of it) as another mystery. To further this study of the above passages and if we are truly raptured to Heaven (I do believe in the rapture be the way in case anyone is thinking I do not, just not in the same time and sense that is more popular pre trib belief) and look at: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2"1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." <<< How many times have we seen the "day of the Lord" in scriptures?
Lots of times in both the new and old testaments. Many think the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are two different events because some bibles interpret Lord & Christ in various passages and others interpret either all Lord or Christ. One day being for God and his judgement and the other for Christ. However the Greek word used in every single reference to the day of the Lord or Christ is the same for all of them (kurios:lord, master, sir; the Lord, properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord)). He is our Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I do not believe the Day of the Lord/Christ are reference to having something to do with a rapture and then a resurrection before the 1000 year reign and after for the 2nd resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgement. The word in the Greek for God is theós (of unknown origin) – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things.
Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things. This word is never used in referencing to the day of the Lord or Christ. Paul even points that our for us in the first verse in 2nd Thessalonians above that it is the coming & day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I have read D4L thread on the differences of the day of the Lord and the day of Christ but after much research of my own and learning that the Greek is the same for both Lord and Christ in all of these verses regarding the day of the Lord, I have to kindly disagree because it nulls out any sort of dividing this day for two different events. If they where different, then there would be a different word used to describe the one who is causing this event and there is not.
EDIT: I see these post may be sorted because they are getting off topic. Moderators please move if necessary.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 11:35:58 GMT -6
But Jesus is in heaven, is He not? I was invited to read this thread. I have been reading it through over the last couple of days and find a lot of the information interesting and some of it stretched, like 1 thessalonians 4:17: "Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."I know venge and barbiosheepgirl both question this verse as to where it says heaven? I am also a believer in the Kingdom of God being on Earth with Jesus on Earth with us. Both of them are correct to do so because it does not at all mean heaven in that verse (which in the original language clearly defines Heaven as upper atmosphere or even beyond that. Don't take my word for it however, look it up). The word clouds in the Greek as a transliteration: nephelé: a cloud (literally only means clouds. Not above the Earth in space or some other dimension somewhere, but clouds like the ones in our skies right now. Jesus comes in the clouds and we meet him in the clouds because that is where He is. This passage does not say meet in Him in the clouds and then go up to heaven. The Greek word that is used for clouds is derived from: nephos. This word is rather interesting as it's meaning is A) Neuter B) A noun white Nephele is A) Feminine and B) A noun and the definition is (which is the most interesting part to me at least) a cloud; met: a dense crowd, a multitude, great company.
Paul was a fantastic writer and very intelligent, far more than most of us are, which is why some of his writings are hard to read and understand. Since this "Rule" of bible interpretation was brought to my attention in a response to another thread here a little while ago, I am going to use this proper or highly suggested (Who came up with this?) way of interpreting the bible (according to man anyways...) and use it on this verse and Heaven being inserted where it does not belong and imo stretching this verse (that is not in anyway directed towards you witness1 , just the popular theorie taught on this verse). HERMENEUTICS: THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION
WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY (LIKE THE WORD CLOUD...), ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE. A. SEEK THE PLAIN, LITERAL MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURES
1. The sum and substance of this most important rule is that one should take every statement of the Scriptures at its face value, if possible. 2. The following is an analysis of the adjectives "primary," "ordinary," and "usual." 3. "Primary" emphasizes the original, inherent idea in the term. 4. "Ordinary" and "usual" are practically synonyms, especially in this definition, "usual" being employed for the sake of emphasis. 5. "Literal" is used to emphasize the thought that every word must first be taken literally as expressing the exact thought of the author at the time when it was used; and one is not to go beyond the literal meaning of the Scriptures unless the facts of the context indicate a deeper, hidden or symbolic meaning. B. SEEK THE FIGURATIVE MEANING ONLY WHEN THE FACTS
DEMAND SUCH AN INTERPRETATION
(What? How can this be a rule or guideline if there is absolutely no definition of choosing and separating what is and isn't figurative or fact? By this rule it is basically saying to guess)1. Modernism and rationalism are the logical outgrowth of forcing a figurative meaning upon a passage that is clearly literal, or vice versa. (IS THAT NOT WHAT IS BEING DONE TO THE ABOVE PASSAGE OR MAYBE EVEN WORSE BY INSERTING A WORD AND A MEANING THAT IS NOT EVEN THERE ??) Not using caps and bold for yelling incase that is takes it that way, just using it to make a point. Here are my questions regarding as to why this passage is interpreted to mean going to heaven and that is what we do while possibly half or more of our family members, friends, and loved ones are here going through hell of Earth while we sit back and do what exactly? I mean these questions genuinely and am trying real hard to not be as blunt as I usually am.
1. Where in the bible does it say what we are supposed to be doing in Heaven while everyones else back on Earth are suffering immensely? At least to my knowledge it doesn't. If anyone knows, please help me out here. 2. Paul states this is a mystery that is being revealed, however did not indicate that there is another mystery immediately following the first one that cannot be revealed such as us going to heaven w/ Christ and what we would be doing up there for 7 years (I definitely didn't see that in any of his writings come to think of it) as another mystery. To further this study of the above passages and if we are truly raptured to Heaven (I do believe in the rapture be the way in case anyone is thinking I do not, just not in the same time and sense that is more popular pre trib belief) and look at: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2"1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." <<< How many times have we seen the "day of the Lord" in scriptures?
Lots of times in both the new and old testaments. Many think the day of the Lord and the day of Christ are two different events because some bibles interpret Lord & Christ in various passages and others interpret either all Lord or Christ. One day being for God and his judgement and the other for Christ. However the Greek word used in every single reference to the day of the Lord or Christ is the same for all of them (kurios:lord, master, sir; the Lord, properly, a person exercising absolute ownership rights; lord (Lord)). He is our Lord of Lords and King of Kings. I do not believe the Day of the Lord/Christ are reference to having something to do with a rapture and then a resurrection before the 1000 year reign and after for the 2nd resurrection for the Great White Throne Judgement. The word in the Greek for God is theós (of unknown origin) – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things.
Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things. This word is never used in referencing to the day of the Lord or Christ. Paul even points that our for us in the first verse in 2nd Thessalonians above that it is the coming & day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I have read D4L thread on the differences of the day of the Lord and the day of Christ but after much research of my own and learning that the Greek is the same for both Lord and Christ in all of these verses regarding the day of the Lord, I have to kindly disagree because it nulls out any sort of dividing this day for two different events. If they where different, then there would be a different word used to describe the one who is causing this event and there is not.
EDIT: I see these post may be sorted because they are getting off topic. Moderators please move if necessary.
To piggy back on that, 1 Corinthians 5:5 Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord? |
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2018 11:38:45 GMT -6
Just addressing one thing...combine meeting Him in the clouds with John 14:1-4. Yes, that doesn't say heaven either, but where He is going (to the Father...who is in heaven). We have to consider the whole of Scripture and the way God reveals bits at a time.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 11:49:34 GMT -6
Just addressing one thing...combine meeting Him in the clouds with John 14:1-4. Yes, that doesn't say heaven either, but where He is going (to the Father...who is in heaven). We have to consider the whole of Scripture and the way God reveals bits at a time. Verse 3 said But 1 Thessalonians 4:17 follows it with When he receives us, we will be with him forever. It still does not infer heaven. Revelation 1:7 If he comes WITH the clouds, and we ascend into the clouds to meet him....it sounds as if this is before his wrath starts to which we don't go to heaven. He came to earth to change us + to do his wrath. Why would he leave when he just got here. Is it normal in Jewish times for a king to tell his son go get your people to make them ready for the wedding and then he leaves to go back home? |
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2018 12:38:48 GMT -6
we see it differently. I see it as the Son coming to get the bride to take her to her home (the many rooms/mansions in the John passage) before Daniel's 70th week. Also seen in Isaiah 26:19-21.
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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 13:16:24 GMT -6
@vange says I accept your challenge lol  1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved (healed, saved, preserved, rescued) in the day of the Lord Jesus. Paul can go in and out of being present in the spirit and being absent in the body. To me he is implying that He is not relying on the carnality and sin of his flesh to make decisions or actions, but in the spirit with the power of Jesus. He literally did not separate into two different entities and then come back into one. He relied on the power God to guide his actions and mindset. He is speaking this as a metaphor. I would think the same would be applied to his second statement in regards to delivering to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (sin, immorality, wickedness) as a metaphor as well. The reason is the word for destruction does mean utter destruction, but this: 3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." > After seeing this, I think this is referring to destruction to the point that it causes one to completely turn away from their fleshly sins and desires from being destroyed by them which also usually causes repentance from their sins. The words may or might be saved in this verse are misleading. These words are not expressing a possibility but they are expressing a permission. How does one know the difference? This is how the language is used to express the permission in scripture and what it is categorized under: to make one a partaker of the salvation by Christ.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 13:19:56 GMT -6
I wanted to add something us Cwood85 Amos 5:18 says The day of the Lord is darkness and is not light but 1 Thessalonians 5:4 says, Since we are in the light, the day of the Lord wont overtake us. Why? In verse 9 Now, I know this is a rehash and we all know these verses. They link God's wrath with the Day of the Lord. Not before it. Therefore, we must escape before the day of the Lord because we are children of light and the day should not overtake us. Zephaniah 2:3 If we are to leave before the day of the Lord, when will it be? Joel 3:14-16 The day of the Lord is near when we see the sun and moon darkened and the stars withdraw their shining. Acts 2:20 2 Peter 3:10-12 Joel 2:31 The astral events happen BEFORE God pours out his wrath at the day of the Lord. And we are removed from His wrath before that day. That day happens according to Revelation 6:12-14 Then it is said to back up the day, It hadn't come before, but now it is coming! Because Joel 2:31 shows the astral events MUST happen before his Day of wrath. Therefore, everything before the 6th seal was not his wrath. After this event the day of the Lord is near, because Christ says when you see all these things, know it is at the doors in Matthew 24:33. But in Matthew 24:29-31 we see Joel 2:31 backs up WHEN the day of the Lord's wrath comes. Revelation 6 shows places it after the 6th seal event giving us a specific TIME
Matthew 24 gives us another clue. AFTER the tribulation
Luke 21:28
Whose redemption and what redemption? The rapture?
Mark 13:24-27
The fact is, the day of the Lord happens after the 6th seal as was shown. The day of the Lord brings wrath with it as it is a time of darkness.
Zephaniah 1:14-18
Since we are of the light and God will remove us from that time, our removal is prior to the 6th seal. In regards to Witness1 looking at the 2 witnesses...It is my opinion based on the previous scripture posted, that Malachi 4:5
The 2 witnesses must start their 42 month prophecy prior to or at the 6th seal but able to end it before the 3rd woe.
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Post by venge on May 8, 2018 13:27:58 GMT -6
@vange says I accept your challenge lol 1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved (healed, saved, preserved, rescued) in the day of the Lord Jesus. Paul can go in and out of being present in the spirit and being absent in the body. To me he is implying that He is not relying on the carnality and sin of his flesh to make decisions or actions, but in the spirit with the power of Jesus. He literally did not separate into two different entities and then come back into one. He relied on the power God to guide his actions and mindset. He is speaking this as a metaphor. I would think the same would be applied to his second statement in regards to delivering to Satan for the destruction of his flesh (sin, immorality, wickedness) as a metaphor as well. The reason is the word for destruction does mean utter destruction, but this: 3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." > After seeing this, I think this is referring to destruction to the point that it causes one to completely turn away from their fleshly sins and desires from being destroyed by them which also usually causes repentance from their sins. The words may or might be saved in this verse are misleading. These words are not expressing a possibility but they are expressing a permission. How does one know the difference? This is how the language is used to express the permission in scripture and what it is categorized under: to make one a partaker of the salvation by Christ.
Agree when you said, "After seeing this, I think this is referring to destruction to the point that it causes one to completely turn away from their fleshly sins and desires from being destroyed by them which also usually causes repentance from their sins. " I would think the permission lay in Christ alone. As he is the judge. Nevertheless, the verse to suggest a soul being saved at the day of Christ is interesting however you or another takes it. |
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Post by cwood85 on May 8, 2018 16:33:47 GMT -6
venge"Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord?" Hmmm interesting isn't it? I do believe Venge, it seems that is what Paul is referring to 😉 Almost seems like Paul is referring to the day of judgement (what is the purpose of Judgement? To correct and stop bad behavior through the proper punishment and chastising that matches the level of bad behavior) in which we humans would receive from God. If a spirit who is evil while on Earth and then received Grace from God after Judgement from God, what else could Paul be referring to?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on May 8, 2018 20:20:53 GMT -6
We are truly not really that far off topic... This scripture was referenced: Zeph 2:3 just a post or two ago... Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger
Psalm 83 1{A Song or Psalm of Asaph.} Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.In Zephaniah the word "hid" means concealed...In Psalms it means to hide, store, treasure up... Oh there is a ton here! The parable of the man who bought the entire piece of land for the treasure that was hidden in it... Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.Yes, we will be "hidden" stormyknight . The question is, how far up in the sky? OR, is it the reversal of going from ashamed Adam to unashamed Adam? We meet Christ in the "air"...And truly, humbly, does it really matter what it looks like? In some respects yes, because there is so much written in the scriptures that references our state of being with the Lord. Physically, spiritually, and, when we have been changed in a twinkling of an eye and are with the Lord for eternity (those of us remaining when that twinkling happens). Verse 4 in Psalm 83 to me tells me who Israel (north and not southern Judah) "represents" in scripture many a time spirtrually: The Christ-follower, the one called by God...because they are "hidden," in verse 3 and it seems to elaborate on who they are in verse 4: they want the name to not be remembered anymore...this also tell me that it will be known that there are those "hidden." This Psalm 83 seems to indicate this is a post-rapture verse... if these are rapture verses, then the word "hid" is significant. It is to conceal, which is the opposite of reveal... I can see where when we are concealed, the sweet, Lord Jesus will be Revealed to the believer! |
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Post by Natalie on May 8, 2018 20:41:35 GMT -6
Interesting stuff.
3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
I see this as possibly two different groups of people...Israel and the raptured believers.
Then verse 4, they want to erase Israel. They can't do anything against the hidden ones because we have been removed.
ETA: however, I also see how verse 3 could just mean Israel. The NKJV calls them "Your people", and "Your sheltered ones". God will protect them against their enemies.
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Post by venge on May 9, 2018 4:30:34 GMT -6
venge"Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord?" Hmmm interesting isn't it? I do believe Venge, it seems that is what Paul is referring to 😉 Almost seems like Paul is referring to the day of judgement (what is the purpose of Judgement? To correct and stop bad behavior through the proper punishment and chastising that matches the level of bad behavior) in which we humans would receive from God. If a spirit who is evil while on Earth and then received Grace from God after Judgement from God, what else could Paul be referring to? Absolutely!!!! He would be saved! |
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Post by venge on May 9, 2018 4:43:26 GMT -6
We are truly not really that far off topic... This scripture was referenced: Zeph 2:3 just a post or two ago... Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger
Psalm 83 1{A Song or Psalm of Asaph.} Keep not thou silence, O God: hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God.
2For, lo, thine enemies make a tumult: and they that hate thee have lifted up the head.
3They have taken crafty counsel against thy people, and consulted against thy hidden ones.
4They have said, Come, and let us cut them off from being a nation; that the name of Israel may be no more in remembrance.In Zephaniah the word "hid" means concealed...In Psalms it means to hide, store, treasure up... Oh there is a ton here! The parable of the man who bought the entire piece of land for the treasure that was hidden in it... Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.Yes, we will be "hidden" stormyknight . The question is, how far up in the sky? OR, is it the reversal of going from ashamed Adam to unashamed Adam? We meet Christ in the "air"...And truly, humbly, does it really matter what it looks like? In some respects yes, because there is so much written in the scriptures that references our state of being with the Lord. Physically, spiritually, and, when we have been changed in a twinkling of an eye and are with the Lord for eternity (those of us remaining when that twinkling happens). Verse 4 in Psalm 83 to me tells me who Israel (north and not southern Judah) "represents" in scripture many a time spirtrually: The Christ-follower, the one called by God...because they are "hidden," in verse 3 and it seems to elaborate on who they are in verse 4: they want the name to not be remembered anymore...this also tell me that it will be known that there are those "hidden." This Psalm 83 seems to indicate this is a post-rapture verse... if these are rapture verses, then the word "hid" is significant. It is to conceal, which is the opposite of reveal... I can see where when we are concealed, the sweet, Lord Jesus will be Revealed to the believer! I view Zephaniah 2:3 as backing up the Church of Revelation that’s kept from the hour of temptation. The question with that one is when is that hour. I believe it is when Jerusalem is surrounded by armies and it’s desolation is nigh. Christ said don’t look back. Your heart is where your treasures are like Lots wife. He then says if you go to save your life you lose it and if you lose it, you save it. I interpret life as not living but what is valuable to you. Your treasures. Is your heart on God and others or yourself? Self preservation in a time of great calamity is difficult to fight. So I think that the hr of temptation obviously fits in at the midst of Daniels week. |
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Post by venge on May 9, 2018 6:30:30 GMT -6
Psalm 83 reminds me of 2 things. 1: It reminds me of when the AoD is set up and their annulment with death is shown. They are hid in the wilderness by a great eagle (which I symbolize as God, as he has done throughout scripture) for 3.5 years. Sorry to those who think the great eagle is America  They are hidden from them. 2: I can’t remember which book, possibly Joel or Isaiah, but I remember that Israel is also sold to the Grecian... Anyway, they are removed out of their homeland to other countries for exactly what Psalm says. To get rid of the remembrance of Israel. |
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Post by cwood85 on May 9, 2018 7:36:13 GMT -6
venge "Why would a spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord. Not before the day of the Lord but in that day. If the spirit of a evil man was changed and he would bear fruit, would he then be saved in the day of the Lord?" Hmmm interesting isn't it? I do believe Venge, it seems that is what Paul is referring to 😉 Almost seems like Paul is referring to the day of judgement (what is the purpose of Judgement? To correct and stop bad behavior through the proper punishment and chastising that matches the level of bad behavior) in which we humans would receive from God. If a spirit who is evil while on Earth and then received Grace from God after Judgement from God, what else could Paul be referring to? Absolutely!!!! He would be saved! Yep saved ❤️ By Gods proper judgement out of love. Where sin abounds, grace abounds. I truly believe He means that all the way to the Lords day and at the great white throne judgement (not damnation as many seem to insert in there instead of judgement). The Lord God never changes. He was, is, and will always be the same. You seem very logical and like to question things a lot before coming to an answer for yourself and seek the Lords guidance. Putting two and two together and if they don't fit, keep looking. You will never hear in a church that on the Lords day we have the opportunity to receive His grace. 3but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4The serpent said to the woman, “ You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Genesis 3:3-5 ^^^That right there is was the biggest and first lie told at the beginning of creation. That we will surely not die and be like God who is infinite, eternal, the beginning and the end and we would live forever just like Him. What does the majority of churchs teach? Immediately when you die you either go straight to heaven or hell forever. Looks like we keep falling for that lie from the very beginning. We know this isn't true because: 19By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”I always wondered what was the point of the resurrections if we go to heaven or hell? What would there be to resurrect? As we see the kingdoms of the world falling apart at a rapid pace, and as Psalm 83 points out that Israel is being surrounded by enemies. I believe this chapter possibly has dual fulfillment. Israel has been surrounded and destroyed by enemies before and we are seeing this again. Christ is certainly close and he will bring all the kingdoms of the world into him. Most will not come easily as we are also seeing. |
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??) Not using caps and bold for yelling incase that is takes it that way, just using it to make a point. 
