I didn’t intend that to be unkind. I was just acknowledging that the conversation between us is getting a bit stale. No? In several threads, I keep saying the same things, you keep saying the same things. This Pre/Mid/Pre-Wrath/Post debate has raged on throughout the church age, now on the internet, everywhere. What more can we add to the discussion that hasn’t been debated? None the less, I’ll tell you the truth…all in love, praying you will change your mind about it.
This isn't a reply as much as a statement.
We are in a gap in Daniel’s 70 weeks. 69 were completed at Christ’s first advent. The 70th week is yet to come. The current Dispensation (#6) is the Church Age which began with the New Covenant in Christ’s blood.
I agree! ^
During the Dispensation of Law (#5), the Old Testament saints only saw a general resurrection at “the end”. But under this New Covenant, Paul was shown a mystery. Something new that was previously not revealed. Paul’s words are comforting because there will again be a change in Dispensations that begins at the rapture of the Church. The time for trial, tribulation and persecution for the Church is now, within the Dispensation of Grace.
Somewhat I agree ^When THE Tribulation begins, it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, a new Dispensation starts (#7). The Church has no part in it here on earth. Daniel was given visions that were to be sealed up until the time of the end. These visions were all about HIS people, the Jewish people, not the Gentile Church. “Thy people” = Daniel’s people…the Jews.
The Tribulation is not the time of trouble, that is the Great tribulation. as Christ says so...there is tribulation and Great Tribulation. Very different. ^
I make a distinction between the first 3 1/2 years and the second. I call the entire 7 years Tribulation, the last 3 1/2 is the Great Tribulation. This is pretty common terminology among Christians...nothing new here.The letters to the 7 churches are letters to 7 specific historical churches and also a holistic picture of the individuals and churches throughout the Church Age. Indeed we can see elements of each of these churches within the modern Christian Church. There are actually 2 of the 7 for which Jesus had no rebuke. Smyrna and Philadelphia. The other 5 have issues. Each individual believer should harken to the words of Jesus and repent.
I misspoke, 2 churches of 7. I agree with what you wrote here ^General, but germane: To “Repent” means to change one’s mind. True repentance acknowledges that we have nothing in ourselves that can make us clean/acceptable before a holy God. It’s only through relying on the finished work of Christ and His righteousness that any of us can be assured salvation. It’s by Grace through Faith, not by works, not by cleaning ourselves up or trying to change our behavior in our own strength. Those who preach “repentance” (Law & works) continually fail to understand that the narrow path isn’t walked by being good boys and girls and law keeping, it’s by realizing we have nothing good within us and that only by faith in Christ and by cooperating with the working of His Spirit within us that we can attain the prize, entering through the narrow gate. We can’t save ourselves and we can’t change ourselves. The sanctification of the believer is an ongoing process that is personal and specific to each believer and it’s a work of God’s Holy Spirit.
I don't disagree with this neither have I said anything against it. ^
This very day, some Christians in other parts of the world are suffering greatly. Christians in Syria, China, North Korea, etc. face death daily just for following Christ. While at the same time, by and large, Christians in the USA, Europe, etc. are not suffering in these horrendous ways. Yet even we do experience great trials. We may not be in threat of prison or execution, but that doesn’t mean that we aren’t suffering greatly in other ways. Many are, and it’s been this way for 2000 years. The Church is in tribulation right now, but not all of us suffer the same trials. Same body, different parts.
Again, I don't disagree. But I am talking about the time of sorrows aka the birth pangs. They are not yet. ^
Here we disagree. I think we seeing birth pangs. Touche'.But Jesus says that none of the ones given Him by the Father should be lost. None of these are perfect. None are righteous in and of themselves. None are better than another because they have suffered more than another in this life. But Jesus says they are all saved.
Agree ^To say that only 1 church (Philadelphia) escapes the tribulation is incorrect. Rather, all who have trusted in the finished work of Christ will be saved, regardless of their degree of sanctification. There is no “partial rapture”. The most righteous among us is still a filthy sinner saved by grace. Your theory says that some of us are better than others. Can Christ’s body be divided? Can His leg escape but the rest of His body remain to suffer?
I don't mean any church will escape. I said 1, will escape the hr of temptation. I never said they will escape tribulation.
Hmm. I'm guessing you don't see the first 3 1/2 years as "Tribulation", but I'm not sure about the distinction you are drawing between the hr. of temptation vs. the Trib.1 Thessalonians 5:9 & 10
9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11Therefore encourage and build one another up, just as you are already doing.
I am familiar with the verse. I have said many times we are not appointed for wrath. There is a distinction between God's wrath and Satan's wrath. We can be attacked by Satan's wrath. ^
Yep, got that. It's a common Pre-Wrath assertion. We agree to disagree.There are a few major problems with a Pre-wrath or Post-Trib understanding and I’ll touch on those. But this is more of a defense of the Pre-Trib rapture.
1. Matthew 24. Primarily for the Jews. The disciples ask Jesus to tell them about the end. Verses 1 – 13 explains the beginnings of sorrows and He says “then the end shall come”. Starting with verse 14, we are in the Tribulation and this is a message to the Jews who will suffer through it. The “elect” in verse 22 are primarily the Jewish remnant, not the Church. The event pictured in verses 29 – 31 are about Tribulation Saints and Jewish believers at His second coming. Starting at verse 32 He returns to the beginning and tells a parable regarding the fig tree, the generation that will see Israel become a nation again. Us…this generation living today. We know that summer is near because we see these things beginning to happen. What things? Verses 1 – 13. (See also Luke 21:28, 36)
I agree partly, the time of sorrows is the tribulation (you call it all tribulation) that we go thru! Then the end comes.....the end being the GREAT tribulation. That is the rapture. Raptured out of it because we are not destined for God's wrath. Disagree with the elect being Jews. Paul says in
Romans 9:6, But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, ...Therefore, we are the elect. It is future Israel, not current Jewish Israel.
Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified
That is the election. But again, I know we will disagree.
Not entirely. I hardily agree that we believers, the Church are the elect. but there are 3 saved entities. The Church, the Tribulation Saints and the Jews that will be saved during the Tribulation. All I am saying here is that Jesus is referring to the Jewish Elect in these verses...as opposed to the Gentile believers. 2. The Lord told us to WATCH. Why? What are we watching for? If you hold to a Pre-Wrath or Post Trib understanding, it's simple math or watching the judgements fall. A covenant is confirmed with many for 7 years. If we see that, and a leader that rises to power, commanding a global government, we can be pretty sure the Tribulation has begun. It’s for 7 years, so we start counting. If that’s not clear enough, then we have the AOD. That will happen 3 ½ years before the return of Christ. Again, we can count. Jesus says no man can know the day or hour. Hmmm. If He is talking about His second coming, then we surely CAN know…maybe not the hour, but certainly within a few days. In fact, Daniel gives us exact day counts! Again, what is it we are watching for? We are watching for the Lord to come, and it’s not a day we can count to, so it cannot be His second coming. He comes as a thief…no specific warning, no day counts, no signs other than general birth pangs. (Matthew 24:43 and 1 Thessalonians 5:3)
Where is it said Christ comes 3.5 years after the mid point of Daniels 70th week?He does not come as a thief for us. He comes as a thief to unbelievers!
1. The AOD occurs "in the midst" of the week. Pre-Tribbers (and almost everyone) agree that this is the mid-point of the 7 years. Pretty commonly held belief.1 Thessalonians
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. We are not to be taken as a thief. Therefore, he says because we are not to be taken as a thief, we are to watch and be sober. Not sure why you quote that. Because he does not come as a thief to Us, we have signs, we have warnings. Those who are in darkness have no signs, have no warnings. We do.
I did not say He comes as a thief for or to either group. I simply said, He comes as a thief, period. All I mean by this is that there is little or no warning...only general birth pangs can be seen. I believe the rapture and the subsequent Day of the Lord happen so swiftly that to this unbelieving world, it as if a thief has come in the night.Matthew 24:42-44
42Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect Him.
3. The rapture itself is sign-less and we can’t know the day or hour, only the season. Therefore, we are watching for signs of the coming Tribulation (Matthew 24:1-13) which will tip us off as to the timing of the rapture, which can happen at any time when we begin to see the birth pangs. There is nothing that needs to be fulfilled. We are seeing the birth pangs now, and this is what Jesus was telling us to watch for. For it’s when we BEGIN to see these things happen that our redemption draws nigh. It’s not after 7 years of hell on earth, it’s at the beginning of these troublesome times. Paul gives us the order of events. Removal of the Restrainer (HS)/Rapture, Revealing of the AC, Day of the Lord. I believe these events are almost simultaneous, but in this order.
Signless? Behold I will send you Elijah BEFORE the day of the Lord.If you see my event order, then you know that I see the rapture occuring before the Day of the Lord.There will be a falling away first
Some interpret that as meaning "Departure" not "Apostasy"...I waffle on it. But have more often thought of it as apostasy, which I think is clearing happening now. Clown Church in America...it's here.The man of sin will be revealed BEFORE the day of the Lord
Wrong order. 
The restrainer MUST be removed first. He indwells us, so we are gone too.Moon as bloodSun black as sackclothHeavens roll awayStars fall from heaven to earthMany Christs appearThey will deliver us up to be killedThe mark of the beastThere are plenty signs
You are using Tribulation events as signs. We are gone before many of these. However, false Christs have been appearing for 2000 years. This will get worse as the days pass.4. Pronouns are important. Question: Who is Paul addressing in 1 Thessalonians 5 where he talks about the coming of the Lord? Answer: Us. Paul indicates that sudden destruction comes on “them”, not “us”. And “they” will not escape, so it implies that we will escape. I think the rapture is the event that precipitates this sudden destruction.
Again, I have always said we are not for God's wrath. ^1 Thessalonians 5:1-3
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
5. You’ve split the Tribulation’s 1st and 2nd halves into Satan’s wrath & God’s wrath. Ok, but who is sovereign here? Actually, I’m glad you mention Job. Satan could have done nothing with Job had the Lord not allowed it. Can the Tribulation begin because Satan wills it? Or is God orchestrating all things in this regard? Satan will participate, but it’s not on his schedule. Satan is full of wrath because he knows his time is short, but who is pulling his strings and allowing all these events to happen?
God obviously allows all to happen. That does not mean he is responsible. He can allow it or stop it. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth for the devil has come down to you having great wrath. The text is pretty self explanatory. The difference is the Lord doesn't come till the AoD is set up. Satan's wrath is before that. The time you call tribulation that we wont be here, I call the birth pangs that we will be here. The tribulation we wont be here is after.
Ok, yep, that is the Pre-Wrath position. I disagree.Things to note re: Job. He is pre-Abrahamic covenant. He is pre-Mosaic covenant. He is pre-Grace. Job didn’t have the promises given to the Church. Job’s story is about the sovereignty of God, not tribulation per se. God allowed Job to suffer at the hands of Satan, but isn’t it interesting that He specifically did not allow Satan to kill Job? You seem to indicate that many Christians will die during the Tribulation. We, the body of Christ, the redeemed of the Lord, the Saints purchased with the blood of the Lamb, Kings and Priests? It seems unlikely.
True, Job was under mosaic law as was Moses but Job and Moses taught true righteousness. What the Jews lacked. His being under the law and not grace doesn't change his ability to be persecuted any different from someone under grace. No, I don't think it was interesting that God saved Job because he tested him knowing he loved him back. And he rewarded him for his testing with much more. We will die during the birth pangs, we will not be here for the Great Tribulation.
As I understand it, Job lived pre-moses. Probably around the time of Abraham. So he was not under any covenant. But he loved God and certainly was a man of faith. We still disagree on the timing of things.6. If the Church is on earth during the Tribulation, why does God need 144,000 Jewish witnesses, the two witnesses (Elijah and Enoch or Moses) and an angel flying overhead proclaiming the gospel (Revelation 14:6)? I mean, wouldn’t millions of Christians be enough? Seems to me the Church isn’t here during that time because God sends other preachers.
Because many of us are killed to make us white. The 5th seal martyrs. Asking God...Lord, when will you avenge us? If it was his wrath, why are they asking when it will begin? The 2 witnesses/2 lampstands uses them to change the hearts of men. As the bible states, to make men ready for the kingdom of God. Remember, Christ said he would shorten that time for the elect..otherwise no flesh would be saved. That is why.
We were made "white" the day we received Christ. We are already seated in heavenly realms with Christ. For us, it is finished. This is the main problem with Pre-wrath/Post-trib. It quickly devolves into us sacrificing ourselves...as if that would have any eternal effect. The 5th Seal Martyrs are Tribulation Saints. Not the Church. The two witnesses preach on the streets of Jerusalem, but are seen world-wide (CNN, Fox). I agree, they preach Christ to a dead world. The elect left at this time are Trib Saints and Jewish converts.7. The character of God is such that He saves His people before sending judgement. The first half of the Tribulation is far beyond any tribulation experienced by the Church in the past 2000 years, not to mention the 2nd half.
Yes, again, He will save us from his judgement. I don't disagree. The disagreement is when the judgement happens. =P The second half of your text I find incorrect. Matthew 24 shows earthquakes, nation vs nation, wars, plague, death. he calls it the birth pangs. In Daniel, before Michael stands up, we see the AC doing all the things Christ Mentioned in Matthew 24. Then after these things he says there will be Great Tribulation. That part that you say is far beyond anything we experienced is not the first half of Daniels 70th week. Its the latter half. The AoD is setup in the midst of the week. Therefore, the first 3.5 years are part of the birth pangs we do see. That is the time of Elijah's ministry. Last attempt to save people before his wrath pours out.
We agree to disagree on the timing.OT Rapture Types:
Enoch was raptured before the flood. A clear picture of the Church being raptured prior to the Tribulation.
Noah – Saved through the flood. I think this is a picture of God preserving a remnant in Israel during the Tribulation, but many think this is also a type of the rapture. Regardless, God saves from wrath.
Lot – Another picture of God saving His people prior to judgement. Lot…clearly a backslider (like a lukewarm Christian?), but saved from destruction none the less.
Peter says that if God spared Noah and Lot, then He surely “knows how to rescue the godly from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment” (2 Peter 2:4-9).
I don't disagree. ^There are others I could cite.
8. The 24 Elders are the Church. In Rev. 5, they are present in heaven when Jesus opens Seal #1. They are easily identified by the song they sing. The Church has been redeemed by His blood and we are Kings and Priests and will reign on earth with Christ. No other entity in the bible can claim that identity.
I disagree ^ They are in heaven before Christ appears. Yes they do sing with the 4 living creatures. The KJV incorrectly uses "we" and "us" when the proper translation is "they" and "them" as per the NIV. If you look at the Koine Greek, there are 356 occurrences for it. Never is "us" and "we" used. If the rapture had occurred, and the elders are redeemed themselves, why do they have vials which are the prayers of the saints, if the saints are already raptured into heaven and the tribulation hasn't begun yet but is about to happen?As soon as we are raptured, I guarantee Tribulation Saints will start pouring in. You know, those people you've witnessed to for years that mock your end of times preaching? Realizing in that moment that you were correct, they will fall on their faces and call on Jesus to save them...and many, many, many more. The rapture will cause the biggest influx of believers ever.Wouldn't the prayers of the saints be null and void because they would be before the throne of God themselves? Wouldn't they be co-rulers with Christ? Yet they are absent from the throne. Only 24 elders, 4 beast, Christ and God remain there with thousands of angels.Probably the prayers of Trib Saints...see above. But not inconceivable that these are also the prayers we pray upon arrival...for friends and family left behind? I do not know exactly what prayers these are.So this poses another issue. Why would a saint need to pray if he/she were already raptured? If they were not raptured, what prayers would ascend heaven if the tribulation hasn't happened yet? See above. Do you think we will stop praying because we are in heaven? I think we will continue to pray for eternity.Unless, the tribulation has not happened yet and the elders are not redeemed as I believe and the prayers of the saints are going up to heaven still because they are waiting for their king to save them and rapture them still.We agree to disagree.9. The Tribulation begins with the opening of Seal #1. The Seal judgements are called “the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16). You can call it “Satan’s wrath”, but that would be incorrect. Likewise, the Bowl judgments come at the end of the Tribulation and they finish God’s wrath, not begin it (Rev. 15:1).
The time of sorrows aka the birth pangs begins with the opening of seal #1. The verse in Rev 6:16-17 says hide us from the face of the lamb BECAUSE For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? After the 6th seal, NOW his wrath is about to come. It hasn't come YET! If the day of his wrath "is" come, can also be translated "has" come, then because of the previous events...it caused it to come now. Not before. The bowl judgements don't start Gods wrath, the Trumpets do when the angels take fire from the alter and sprinkle it to the earth. The same in Numbers 16:17-46, Exodus 9:8-10, Ezekiel 10:1-22. In each instance, when it is completed a plague begins. That is God's wrath. It begins at the first trumpet.
I see this statement as inclusive of the Seals...i.e. by the 6th seal, everyone left on earth knows that God's wrath has come upon them. They will certainly understand by this ppoint that judgement is and has been falling.10. The Trumpets of Revelation aren’t for believers, they are for judgement. Different than the Trumpets mentioned in 1 Cor. 15 and Thessalonians. This kills the mid-trib/pre-wrath argument.
I agree ^11. Nowhere are believers told to watch for the appearance of the Antichrist. On the contrary, we are told to watch for Jesus Christ. In Titus 2:13 Paul says we are to live “looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.” Likewise, Peter urges us to “fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13). John also urges us to “fix our hope on Him” at His appearing (1 John 3:2-3). Only Matthew speaks of watching for the Antichrist (Matthew 24:15), but he is speaking to the Jews living in Israel during the Tribulation.
I agree ^12. The Word promises over and over that the Church will be delivered from God’s wrath. Romans 5:9 says that “we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him [Jesus].” 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states that we are waiting “for His Son from heaven… who will deliver us from the wrath to come.” The promise is repeated in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 — “God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jesus said we would “escape” the horrors of the Tribulation (Luke 21:3-6). Paul says Jesus is coming to “deliver” us from God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10).
I agree ^ We escape the Great Tribulation. We don't escape the birth pangs. But you are calling the birth pangs tribulation too.
We agree to disagree.13. Jewish wedding.
Study it in the light of scripture.
I am not sure if you assume I haven't?
Wonderful! It is very pre-tribbish. 14. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Of course, I could go on and on, but I won’t. While I know Venge won’t agree with me on most of it, hopefully this will help to strengthen those who are unsure.
The restrainer MUST be removed first. He indwells us, so we are gone too.