Something I noticed in Psalm 83

cwood85 - I am curious to know how you are reading/interpreting this:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 
    muth: to die
- Original Word: מוּת
- This means physical death in every sense, nothing spiritual about the word in the original text.

Genesis 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Here is the perversion of truth - God didn't say "you'll drop dead as you eat the fruit" - Also I just noticed that Eve says "neither touch it", which if God said it, it was not recorded...


So my question to you is what is the lie you are referring to? That when we physically die the soul and/or spirit does not live on forever? (Ecc 12:7) I think we can surmise the physical body dies and returns to the earth. What are you suggesting about the resurrection? Just looking for clarity. Hopefully not to further derail this thread.

1Samuel 28:

3Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, his own city.

7Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.”
8Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name11Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” 12When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.” 13The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.” 14He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

15Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.” 16Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has departed from you and has become your adversary? 17“The LORD has done accordingly as He spoke through me; for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David. 18“As you did not obey the LORD and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19“Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

Samuel was brought up. From where? The Earth. This is Samuels Spirit being conjured by the medium. If Samuels Spirit was with God, do you think this woman had the power to take him from God? Is this a one time occurrence only for Samuels spirit to stay in the Earth and everyone else when they die do not do the same and go straight to heaven? How could Samuel talk from his grave if he was not in his grave? It does not say from above but below.

The chapter you quoted above does say our Spirit is the Lords however no timeframe is given as to when that is after we die. The lie is that we go straight to heaven or hell and are judged straight after death as well. So when the great white throne judgement happens we are judged again? Where is this in scripture? All are judged at the same time during the white throne judgement and that is clearly stated. After the thousand year reign of Christ, he resurrects all of those who were still in the Earth in their grave or wherever they died and are not part of the first resurrection.

"Blessed are those who are in the first resurrection."

I hope I answered all of your questions in what I understand at least.

Cwood85

I understand stand and partly agree. I don’t believe in soul sleep but where do we go? Now people will say in my fathers house are many mansions...
But the Bible says, when you die that’s it. Even Christ was dead in the earth 3 days. When we die we may be in the earth 10,000 days or 50,000 days. Who knows. But where does the spirit go?
For Samuel was shown not in resurrection but in spirit.

Was it a metaphor? An allegory? Literal?

When we read Revelation the wicked are taken out of hell and judged. Then thrown into the lake of fire. Hell is only a place for the wicked. It is not torture. It is not of fire. If they are held there, there must be a place to hold the just. In the 5th seal before they receive robes or a new body, souls are found under the alter of God (Abraham’s bosom?)

Cwood - I respect your take on this, however to form a doctrine about it, is not for me. The context of 1 Samuel 28 is one of those vague areas of scripture that I have reviewed and yet to come to a sound biblical view of what God allowed to transpire here.

I do however want to discuss just a few of the questions you posed. Unless of course they were just rhetorical

I believe Jesus shows us where Samuel was in Luke 16 & Matt 17.
NOTE - I do not want to debate that this is a parable or true story.
Please indulge me that if this is not a parable and a true event. If true event then we have contradiction in that verse 26 says "between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence". The conflict here is the God allowed Samuel to be "conjured" but it was a one off event. Possible? I think so. If this was not a one off event, then any spirit medium can contact the dead at any point in time past, present or tomorrow. So was Samuel with God or in Abraham's bosom? Either way it would appear to me that God allowed it once. Or at the least allowed it to be written for our learning once.

Matt 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias
Now Moses and Elijah were not conjured, but where were they before this appearance? (rhetorical)

I dont believe we've been given enough to state dogmatically that Samuel was just in the ground dormant, and his spirit was just asleep.
His body was certainly asleep but Saul and the witch saw his spirit. I think we can agree there

You are correct in stating the verse I quoted does not give a timeframe. I also do not agree that the spirit sleeps after death waiting for resurrection of the body. What scripture is there that says that? I am not aware but that doesnt mean there isnt one. But again we have the writings from Paul & John to help us see certain things where there is evidence of people in "heaven". 
Again although its debatable the context of "Absent from the body present with the Lord" as I have seen in some discussions. Lets look at the first piece of scripture I see taken out of context and applied elsewhere - I will add my emphasis (cant even believe I'm doing that-I am no scholar!) 

Col 2:1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [for] them at Laodicea, and [for] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh Paul was never physically there; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh Physically, yet am I with you in the spirit No not like Philip, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

1Cor 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body Physically, but present in spirit again not like Philip or a ghost floating in the room, have judged already, as though I were present,

CONTEXT - please read the below in the context in which it was written.
2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
 6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.

Please understand cwood, I love you sister and am not trying to convince you of anything here as secondary to our core belief. I am dialoguing with you and others to present views that don't tie out 100% on either side and are non-essential to our redemption. Whether I wait 1000 years then stand behind or in front of you in line to be judged, then that is Gods plan and decision and I joy in that my judgement was already taken by our Savior. If I am judged on the day I die or he comes to get us who remain alive, that too is not for me to question the God of creation. The only question I would pose in your view of the White Throne judgment being clear is who reigns on earth 1000 years while Satan is bound? Is it only those saints who were "beheaded and did not worship the image of the beast"? - If that were so, then would it be correct to say that you believe that if you are dead in Christ before the remaining pieces of Revelation play out, you arent resurrected until 1000 years is over?

stormyknight ,

Hidden ones, is suggesting to me that these are those redeemed, hidden, raptured ones as we approach God's big W Wrath. It is reading in the first part of Psalm 83 to me that this cry to God is to tackle the enemy who is demonstrating a desire to destroy the Christ-follower during the Day of the Lord.  They (enemy) has become one thru a covenant to go to work to try and destroy anyone who is not with them.  Since this part of 83 reads as a spiritual description (behind the physical scenes description), it reads as if Evil knows who the Faithful are because part of the faithful have been raptured.  The evil one gathers its strongholds to go against the ongoing battle for those left behind.  The battle continues for the souls after the rapture, right?  We know many coming to faith after the rapture, right?  This part of Ps 83 seems to give us an overview and a timeframe, if you will.  This gathering of enemies and coming together as one (one world order?) occurs after the rapture.  Does the Rapture instigate this?  yes, I believe so, how quickly they rally together,  dont know.  

 As my favorite verse reads of me, We are not destined for Wrath, and God's Wrath will come.. And by We, meaning the Christ-follower, Spirit-filled annointed Believer. By definitions given by Paul, namely, these are the Chosen people of God (God Calls us, ie Eph 4:1) and those who answer that call are Born again, are annointed by the Holy Spirit, Set apart, Redeemed, circumcised in the heart... all those wonderful words. So when I see "chosen people" in the OT, there seems to be a dual meaning to those redeemed to enter the Kingdom. 

It is that odd place to be in interpretation (for each one of us) when we read Scripture and the Lord reveals to us that this prophecy is for the Redeemed, or this prophecy is for those not answering the call and/or those not yet called..or never called...still looking at these elements of being called or not...

does this make any sense?   

Thank you, BSG. That helps a lot. And yes, I truly believe we have a lot of work coming our way when the time comes. Thankfully we won't have aches and pains slowing us down then!

Amen barbiesheep

Ephesians...not by works lest any man should boast. Works will not save one man BUT works are profitable. They show ones faith. God asked for a people zealous of good works. Helping prisoners, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, showing mercy and love to all, loving the sick, care for the dieing...

Paul even said faith without works is dead faith. So we don’t need works. There is no grace in them. But our faith being strong would fill us with a loving urge to do works as Christ did. We are to look at his life and testimony as a model for ourselves. He makes it look so easy.

We stumble daily and he did it for 30 or so years. Will I ever get rid of these filthy rags....I pray so.