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Post by Natalie on Apr 18, 2018 12:59:43 GMT -6
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2018 13:59:48 GMT -6
Thank you, @natalie. I don't remember having read this particular part of the narrative... very interesting. I hate to be hard-headed, I really do. But... "The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.” v. 13b. And Samuel says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" Bringing him up from where? From the earth where he was buried. And he says Saul 'disturbed' him. Disturbed, provoke, shake, stirred, troubled.. all words that could be used to arouse someone out their sleep. I'm sorry, but the scriptures still don't answer the metaphysical aspect of 'being' right after we die for me. I have no problem with any other beliefs interpretations, and I am open to search out any and all ideas as I hope I have demonstrated so far. All, of course, in Love! But if we have to agree to disagree, that is ok with me, I don't want to beat a dead horse. God's love and blessings be with us all, in Jesus' name.
edit: a word
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Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 14:00:29 GMT -6
The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable, is it not? But even so, the rich man having been cast into the lake of fire, which is how I take the scene, "being in torment", has already stood before God and been judged. Having not had the Holy Spirit, one can safely assume that this has taken place at the Great White Throne judgement and Lazarus, assuming he had the Holy Spirit, has been at Abraham's side for a thousand years by then. But, there is something that has had me wondering for quite awhile now, although it is not scriptural. It does go along with the "young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams" Acts 2:17. Do you all remember a few years ago, the young Jewish boy (14-15yr old maybe) that allegedly died and was taken to Heaven? Steven Ben Nun covered it in some of his videos then. Anyway, the boy related that as he was taken around Heaven, he noted that everyone he saw was 'learning Torah'. Makes me think that maybe after we die, we 'get schooled' on the Word until we know it by heart. In that sense, some have been at it for several thousand years. We only get one thousand!  I can't wait to find out. edit: by the way, where is the verse about Samuel? I'm having trouble locating it. Thanks, Stormy, That "parable" is one of debate that wont ever be solved. Some say parable, others real story. Also i dont think it could be the White Throne as that is still future for them at that time and for us now. I'm also thinking none of them had the Holy Spirit as this was pre-Pentecost. Unless of course it was Jesus telling a "future" story, which would make it a parable or something only He had knowledge of. I put ZERO stock in anyones dreams or visions. Period. But thats me. My reasoning is we can go down any number of rabbit holes based on someone vision which may not be biblically based. We have an entire religion of Islam based on one man saying Gabriel visited him and look where we are Check 1 Sam 28:15, but read the chapter for better context. Saul was deperate |
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Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 14:08:47 GMT -6
Read the chapter brother! He was buried in verse 3  |
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2018 14:18:48 GMT -6
The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable, is it not? But even so, the rich man having been cast into the lake of fire, which is how I take the scene, "being in torment", has already stood before God and been judged. Having not had the Holy Spirit, one can safely assume that this has taken place at the Great White Throne judgement and Lazarus, assuming he had the Holy Spirit, has been at Abraham's side for a thousand years by then. But, there is something that has had me wondering for quite awhile now, although it is not scriptural. It does go along with the "young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams" Acts 2:17. Do you all remember a few years ago, the young Jewish boy (14-15yr old maybe) that allegedly died and was taken to Heaven? Steven Ben Nun covered it in some of his videos then. Anyway, the boy related that as he was taken around Heaven, he noted that everyone he saw was 'learning Torah'. Makes me think that maybe after we die, we 'get schooled' on the Word until we know it by heart. In that sense, some have been at it for several thousand years. We only get one thousand! I can't wait to find out. edit: by the way, where is the verse about Samuel? I'm having trouble locating it. Thanks, Stormy, That "parable" is one of debate that wont ever be solved. Some say parable, others real story. Also i dont think it could be the White Throne as that is still future for them at that time and for us now. I'm also thinking none of them had the Holy Spirit as this was pre-Pentecost. Unless of course it was Jesus telling a "future" story, which would make it a parable or something only He had knowledge of. I put ZERO stock in anyones dreams or visions. Period. But thats me. My reasoning is we can go down any number of rabbit holes based on someone vision which may not be biblically based. We have an entire religion of Islam based on one man saying Gabriel visited him and look where we are Check 1 Sam 28:15, but read the chapter for better context. Saul was deperate I figure Jesus had knowledge of the scene, being God in the flesh. And I don't put stock in peoples dreams(except for scripture), but I do consider them. I mean, the boy seemed to be telling of things that he had not learned from his Rabbi yet. He was also saying that Obama was going to start a/the war. Obama is still alive and well, so who knows what he might do in the future. As for the dreams of Mohammed, I've done quite a bit of reading and video watching to be pretty convinced that, seeing as how Islam didn't begin until the 7th century A.D., some catholic missionaries with nefarious intent aided in the grooming of Mohammed as a young boy. Of course I see all of that as just another moving of pawns by the devil, satan himself. edit: haha, we are posting at the same time! Sorry, mike! Yes, I saw that he was buried. Am i missing something? |
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Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 14:26:49 GMT -6
ok so here's the curve ball. Who wants to figure this one out as it seems to me a clear contradiction in scripture:
1 Sam 15:35 "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."
Wait what!? How could Samuel go to see Saul until the day of his death when Samuel died before Saul? Am I reading this verse correctly?
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2018 14:48:18 GMT -6
The verse, 35, is about Samuel, so I would think the "his death" is Samuel's death. As the narrative of the story goes, it doesn't say any days passed from the time Samuel died to when Saul visited the witch at Endor. Could it have been the same day? or maybe the next? So Samuel did not visit Saul again until the day of Samuel's death. Saul was struck down by the Philistines who hung his and Jonathan's bodies up. 2 Sam.21:12-13
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Post by fitz on Apr 18, 2018 15:08:38 GMT -6
Parables are stories meant to teach something, but the details of the parable are true. Jesus didn't tell us something that isn't true. Both the rich man and Lazarus (as well as Abraham) we're all conscious. "By definition, a parable is a true-to-life story used to illustrate or illuminate a truth. This is true even if all of the details never occurred exactly as presented in the story. They are special stories that may, or may not, reflect historical events. Nevertheless, they must be true-to-life. By true-to-life we mean that a parable must be based on a real-life situation that the hearers are familiar with. In other words, the story itself has to be based on events that could have happened, whether they ever actually did or not."read more here... www.bereanbiblesociety.org/the-rich-man-and-lazarus-luke-1619-31 |
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2018 22:21:57 GMT -6
A very good read, fitz. Very good. It's very late and I need to go to bed, so I hope to expound on it more later, but for now, there are a couple of holes that I would like to address. Down toward the end of the article, under SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THE CONTINUED PERSONAL CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH
This one is a rather small one, not that big of a deal.
1. The Old Testament saints are pictured as being “gathered to their people” after physical death (see Gen. 25:8; 35:29; 49:29,33; Num. 20:24,26; 27:13; 31:2; Deut. 32:48-50)If, after I die, I am buried in the family cemetery (my family doesn't have one, but many people who have lived do), I would consider that as being 'gathered to my people'. The article says, "To be gathered to their people speaks of being joined together in a relational way." Well, ya, it's my family. Number 8 is the biggest hole that I see, though. 8. That Jesus Christ Will Bring the Departed Grace Believers with Him from Heaven at the Time of the Rapture of the Church (I Thess. 4:13-18): Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave. Returning with Christ from heaven (v. 14) when He comes for His Church, they will receive their glorified bodies first (vv. 15-16) and then those still living will receive theirs as they are caught up to be with the Lord (v. 17; cf. I Cor. 15:51-54). That Christ will bring them from heaven with Him can only mean that they are first in heaven with Him.whoa whoa there, hold on a second... "Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave." This goes against what Jesus, Himself, said in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." That's pretty definitive, right there. One might say, 'well, what happened to Elijah or Enoch?', I would say God can turn stones into the Children of Abraham, He can do what ever He wants. That doesn't mean they are in Heaven, but they could be if that is where God took them. Like I stated in an earlier post, what about the 24 Elders? Who are they? They are present in Heaven when Jesus opens the seals, when did that begin to happen? or has it not yet? That is still up for debate as well.
And the reference to verse 14 of 1 Thess. 4 does not say that Jesus is bringing those who have died in Christ back 'from Heaven' with Him. It says "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. In verse 13, Paul states that he doesn't want us " to be uninformed about those who sleep in death," and verse 15 says that we who are alive will not precede "those who have fallen asleep"
That's enough for now, I'm about to drop. I'd like to say that I have really enjoyed this. It has made me, forced me to dig deeper to see what the scriptures say. Thank you so much, mike, for the push toward Bible Hub. It is so much better than Blue Letter Bible for online reference.
Once again, May our Heavenly Father bless all of us with a pure understanding of His Word, in Jesus' Holy and Righteous Name! Amen.
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Post by witness1 on Apr 19, 2018 4:25:38 GMT -6
Stormy, That "parable" is one of debate that wont ever be solved. Some say parable, others real story. Also i dont think it could be the White Throne as that is still future for them at that time and for us now. I'm also thinking none of them had the Holy Spirit as this was pre-Pentecost. Unless of course it was Jesus telling a "future" story, which would make it a parable or something only He had knowledge of. I put ZERO stock in anyones dreams or visions. Period. But thats me. My reasoning is we can go down any number of rabbit holes based on someone vision which may not be biblically based. We have an entire religion of Islam based on one man saying Gabriel visited him and look where we are Check 1 Sam 28:15, but read the chapter for better context. Saul was deperate I figure Jesus had knowledge of the scene, being God in the flesh. And I don't put stock in peoples dreams(except for scripture), but I do consider them. I mean, the boy seemed to be telling of things that he had not learned from his Rabbi yet. He was also saying that Obama was going to start a/the war. Obama is still alive and well, so who knows what he might do in the future. As for the dreams of Mohammed, I've done quite a bit of reading and video watching to be pretty convinced that, seeing as how Islam didn't begin until the 7th century A.D., some catholic missionaries with nefarious intent aided in the grooming of Mohammed as a young boy. Of course I see all of that as just another moving of pawns by the devil, satan himself. edit: haha, we are posting at the same time! Sorry, mike! Yes, I saw that he was buried. Am i missing something? Interesting discussion here guys. I am enjoying the read. Stormy, if you remember your sources about catholic missionaries grooming Mohammed, would you please share them on the thread about Rome? I am looking to collect as much information as possible. Sorry to interrupt the conversation... please continue. |
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Post by fitz on Apr 19, 2018 4:42:26 GMT -6
A very good read, fitz . Very good. It's very late and I need to go to bed, so I hope to expound on it more later, but for now, there are a couple of holes that I would like to address. Down toward the end of the article, under SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THE CONTINUED PERSONAL CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH
This one is a rather small one, not that big of a deal.
1. The Old Testament saints are pictured as being “gathered to their people” after physical death (see Gen. 25:8; 35:29; 49:29,33; Num. 20:24,26; 27:13; 31:2; Deut. 32:48-50)If, after I die, I am buried in the family cemetery (my family doesn't have one, but many people who have lived do), I would consider that as being 'gathered to my people'. The article says, "To be gathered to their people speaks of being joined together in a relational way." Well, ya, it's my family. Number 8 is the biggest hole that I see, though. 8. That Jesus Christ Will Bring the Departed Grace Believers with Him from Heaven at the Time of the Rapture of the Church (I Thess. 4:13-18): Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave. Returning with Christ from heaven (v. 14) when He comes for His Church, they will receive their glorified bodies first (vv. 15-16) and then those still living will receive theirs as they are caught up to be with the Lord (v. 17; cf. I Cor. 15:51-54). That Christ will bring them from heaven with Him can only mean that they are first in heaven with Him.whoa whoa there, hold on a second... "Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave." This goes against what Jesus, Himself, said in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." That's pretty definitive, right there. One might say, 'well, what happened to Elijah or Enoch?', I would say God can turn stones into the Children of Abraham, He can do what ever He wants. That doesn't mean they are in Heaven, but they could be if that is where God took them. Like I stated in an earlier post, what about the 24 Elders? Who are they? They are present in Heaven when Jesus opens the seals, when did that begin to happen? or has it not yet? That is still up for debate as well.
And the reference to verse 14 of 1 Thess. 4 does not say that Jesus is bringing those who have died in Christ back 'from Heaven' with Him. It says "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. In verse 13, Paul states that he doesn't want us " to be uninformed about those who sleep in death," and verse 15 says that we who are alive will not precede "those who have fallen asleep"
That's enough for now, I'm about to drop. I'd like to say that I have really enjoyed this. It has made me, forced me to dig deeper to see what the scriptures say. Thank you so much, mike , for the push toward Bible Hub. It is so much better than Blue Letter Bible for online reference.
Once again, May our Heavenly Father bless all of us with a pure understanding of His Word, in Jesus' Holy and Righteous Name! Amen.
In John 3:13 I think Jesus is saying no flesh has ascended to heaven. My contention is that only souls/spirits of the sleeping go there at death. But then, it gets even more mysterious when we consider Enoch and Elijah, doesn't it? What of them? They never died. Most likely their bodies of flesh were transformed just as our will be. It makes sense as they are both pictures of the rapture. But you can take it to the bank that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is truth, though maybe not historical. Therefore, Jesus says that after death we go to Paradise (heaven) or Hades (hell) and we are conscious. The 24 elders are the raptured Church. We are kings and priests and will rule on the earth.  |
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Post by stormyknight on Apr 19, 2018 8:22:19 GMT -6
witness1 web.archive.org/web/20030111060616/http:/www.choosinglife.net/Islam.htmThis article from the WayBackMachine pretty much paints the picture of the "conspiracy". I know Alberto Rivera has been allegedly outed as a fraud, especially by the catholic church, but then, of course they would. I do realize this story has been branded "conspiracy theory", so I take it with a grain of salt and suggest you do as well. One must remember who is behind all the evil things that happen on this earth and just how devious and nefarious things can get, even in what appears to be the most pious and pure-hearted people. " And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions." 2 Cor. 11:14-15 I am not saying that by this verse I believe Alberto Rivera's story. It's just that I was raised in a fairly strict catholic family, my uncle was a priest, my aunt was a nun (neither remained in their orders and later got happily married very late in life. My uncle is now passed) and living in the catholic mind set, I can easily see where some of the acts of the catholic church portrayed in this article are very possible. I know there are claims that the Jesuit Order had much to do with this conspiracy, that Order didn't begin until the 1500's with Inigo Lopez de Recalde* whereas Islam began in the 7th century. My thought is that maybe the Jesuit Order had much to do with trying to hide the story. www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6205 This is what the catholic church has on the founder of Islam. "The sources of Mohammed's biography are numerous, but on the whole untrustworthy, being crowded with fictitious details, legends, and stories." This, in my opinion, is suspect. Anyway, witness1, I hope this helps. It is quite the rabbit hole the more you travel down it, with many branching tunnels. Just tread cautiously, it's full of lies. And I don't point that statement at just the catholic church. Pray always for help to seek the truth of the matter. * archive.org/stream/SecretHistoryOfTheJesuits/Paris-The_Secret_History_of_Jesuits1975#page/n13/mode/2up
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Post by venge on Apr 19, 2018 11:46:44 GMT -6
A very good read, fitz . Very good. It's very late and I need to go to bed, so I hope to expound on it more later, but for now, there are a couple of holes that I would like to address. Down toward the end of the article, under SCRIPTURAL PROOFS OF THE CONTINUED PERSONAL CONSCIOUSNESS AFTER PHYSICAL DEATH
This one is a rather small one, not that big of a deal.
1. The Old Testament saints are pictured as being “gathered to their people” after physical death (see Gen. 25:8; 35:29; 49:29,33; Num. 20:24,26; 27:13; 31:2; Deut. 32:48-50)If, after I die, I am buried in the family cemetery (my family doesn't have one, but many people who have lived do), I would consider that as being 'gathered to my people'. The article says, "To be gathered to their people speaks of being joined together in a relational way." Well, ya, it's my family. Number 8 is the biggest hole that I see, though. 8. That Jesus Christ Will Bring the Departed Grace Believers with Him from Heaven at the Time of the Rapture of the Church (I Thess. 4:13-18): Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave. Returning with Christ from heaven (v. 14) when He comes for His Church, they will receive their glorified bodies first (vv. 15-16) and then those still living will receive theirs as they are caught up to be with the Lord (v. 17; cf. I Cor. 15:51-54). That Christ will bring them from heaven with Him can only mean that they are first in heaven with Him.whoa whoa there, hold on a second... "Those who have died physically are presently in heaven as their body “sleeps” in the grave." This goes against what Jesus, Himself, said in John 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man." That's pretty definitive, right there. One might say, 'well, what happened to Elijah or Enoch?', I would say God can turn stones into the Children of Abraham, He can do what ever He wants. That doesn't mean they are in Heaven, but they could be if that is where God took them. Like I stated in an earlier post, what about the 24 Elders? Who are they? They are present in Heaven when Jesus opens the seals, when did that begin to happen? or has it not yet? That is still up for debate as well.
And the reference to verse 14 of 1 Thess. 4 does not say that Jesus is bringing those who have died in Christ back 'from Heaven' with Him. It says "God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. In verse 13, Paul states that he doesn't want us " to be uninformed about those who sleep in death," and verse 15 says that we who are alive will not precede "those who have fallen asleep"
That's enough for now, I'm about to drop. I'd like to say that I have really enjoyed this. It has made me, forced me to dig deeper to see what the scriptures say. Thank you so much, mike , for the push toward Bible Hub. It is so much better than Blue Letter Bible for online reference.
Once again, May our Heavenly Father bless all of us with a pure understanding of His Word, in Jesus' Holy and Righteous Name! Amen.
In John 3:13 I think Jesus is saying no flesh has ascended to heaven. My contention is that only souls/spirits of the sleeping go there at death. But then, it gets even more mysterious when we consider Enoch and Elijah, doesn't it? What of them? They never died. Most likely their bodies of flesh were transformed just as our will be. It makes sense as they are both pictures of the rapture. But you can take it to the bank that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is truth, though maybe not historical. Therefore, Jesus says that after death we go to Paradise (heaven) or Hades (hell) and we are conscious. The 24 elders are the raptured Church. We are kings and priests and will rule on the earth. Haha Fitz! You gotta stick that 24 elder in there. I will remind our readers that what you said is one possible position but not definitive. There are known issues with that interpretation because of many unanswered questions. So until we get a thread going on that, let’s not poke the bear. I am that 🐻! |
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