|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2018 8:59:13 GMT -6
Venge, I've read it. He begins in chapter 5 talking about a house, a tabernacle. He says "clothed", but he is not talking about clothes. He is talking about earthly, fleshly bodies and heavenly, glorified bodies. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to read a modern English translation to understand it better? 2 Corinthians 5:1-10
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it’s not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.
6 So we are always confident, even though we know that as long as we live in these bodies we are not at home with the Lord. 7 For we live by believing and not by seeing. 8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord. 9 So whether we are here in this body or away from this body, our goal is to please him. 10 For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.When I refer to clothing, I am referring to our heavenly body vs our earthly. I am not in disagreement there. Edit: should also say, with that translation, it is still not saying when you die you go straight to heaven. That is an assumption. Using that version, it is only defining once dead we would eventually be with the Lord. Not right at the moment of death. Rather be with the Lord is looking into the future with an unknown time frame. Because of that, one cannot say for a surety that this verse implies death directly to the Lord. It simply doesn’t. That is what some hope, not what is written. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 17, 2018 9:37:31 GMT -6
Phil 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Apr 17, 2018 9:38:30 GMT -6
venge Ok. Yes, I was referencing 1 Thessalonians 4 in my posts, but you started talking about 2 Corinthians 5 in the course of this, so I went with it to clarify what it says. 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it very clear to me. I respect your right to interpret it differently. BTW, the study notes posted were from J. Vernon McGee...not my writing. But I agree with him 100%.
|
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 17, 2018 10:04:05 GMT -6
Venge, what I may have missed but would like you to explain (or repost) is where do you think our spirits/souls end up before the resurrection and with what scripture to back that. I am truly trying to follow but do not see the position you are coming from. Please help me with this.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2018 10:50:44 GMT -6
Venge, what I may have missed but would like you to explain (or repost) is where do you think our spirits/souls end up before the resurrection and with what scripture to back that. I am truly trying to follow but do not see the position you are coming from. Please help me with this. J Vernon McGee was a good man. They still play his audio here in the DC metro area on WAVA radio. Mike, I had explained in a previous reply with little or no scripture cause I am at work unable to check. I believe in Abraham’s bosom. I had stated possibly once dead your soul may be under the alter of God or another place in heaven. But you are still dead. Your soul awaits a new body. Why I suggested the alter of God is because it is related as being wear the souls of saints are. Whatever the place is, souls are said to be there and do not have linen yet. They are to wait. So to, I would think we all must wait till our Savior returns. That’s the best way, without scripture, and at this time, I can explain it. But I will say I don’t hold the definitive answer. I search the word as we all do. Trying not to use the flesh to make sense and instead, trying to use the spirit. I may never have the best answer....many of us don’t, but we all have opinions 😬 |
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 17, 2018 14:04:40 GMT -6
I'm with venge on this one. Although the scriptures a light on any definite explanation. When Abraham died, it is written that " Abraham breathed his last and died in a ripe old age, an old man and satisfied with life; and he was gathered to his people." Gen 25:8. What exactly that means, anyone's guess is as good as another. I took it that 'his people', those who have gone on before him, are just dead. I didn't ever really go for the catholic church's doctrine of purgatory and all that. I do know that when we sleep, we have not concept of time and in that respect, those who have died, biblically described as having fallen asleep, have already risen as they won't know anything from the time they died until the moment they rise, whether it be in the rapture or in a thousand years. I don't believe our most merciful Father in Heaven would let our parents be conscious and watching us live out our lives. How heart wrenching. The mistakes I've made would make my mom want to die...again. No, I believe that we will all 'wake up' together, the dead first and moments later the living who are in Christ Jesus. That feels/seems like the most logical and loving scenario to me. But, I could be, probably am, wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 17, 2018 14:12:30 GMT -6
Think of it like this: those in Christ who died a thousand years ago will, at the moment they wake, will think it is still 1018 A.D., those who died last year will think it is still 2017. Those who live to see the rapture will be the only ones who will have a continuous timeline of events in their life experience. I'm sure it won't be hard to convince/teach those who have died earlier of just what has happened since they died. At least this is the scenario I have in my noggin. Like I said, I could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 17, 2018 14:26:01 GMT -6
Think of it like this: those in Christ who died a thousand years ago will, at the moment they wake, will think it is still 1018 A.D., those who died last year will think it is still 2017. Those who live to see the rapture will be the only ones who will have a continuous timeline of events in their life experience. I'm sure it won't be hard to convince/teach those who have died earlier of just what has happened since they died. At least this is the scenario I have in my noggin. Like I said, I could be wrong. That is exactly how I imagine it. One thing throws it off though I haven’t explained to myself, now playing devils advocate against myself lol, Moses and Elijah appearing before Christ at the hill in front of the disciples, then they vanished. The resurrection hadn’t happened yet. They were seen and somehow known. |
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 17, 2018 14:34:21 GMT -6
well... I don't know why there couldn't be exceptions. For those who have completely surrendered their life to God.
edit:Perhaps the 24 Elders come about this way as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Apr 17, 2018 14:36:11 GMT -6
Think of it like this: those in Christ who died a thousand years ago will, at the moment they wake, will think it is still 1018 A.D., those who died last year will think it is still 2017. Those who live to see the rapture will be the only ones who will have a continuous timeline of events in their life experience. I'm sure it won't be hard to convince/teach those who have died earlier of just what has happened since they died. At least this is the scenario I have in my noggin. Like I said, I could be wrong. You seem to be talking about "Soul sleep", which is not a biblical concept, though some believe it. Read more here. www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.htmlwww.gotquestions.org/absent-from-the-body.htmlI'm going to bail out of this thread now because I think we've beat it to death. Fortunately, whatever you believe here has no bearing on your eternal security. So, Touche'!  |
|
|
|
Post by witness1 on Apr 17, 2018 18:25:43 GMT -6
19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side (bosom). The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
The scripture from where the term “Abraham’s bosom” comes seems to show living souls in both Hades as well as a place of comfort. It seems like “Abraham’s bosom” is indeed the place where believing souls go, but it doesn’t seem like this is a place of sleep.
|
|
|
|
Post by fitz on Apr 18, 2018 5:59:47 GMT -6
Correct witness1. These people in both places are clearly conscious. And I think it is splitting hairs to differentiate between "Paradise" and "Heaven" or "Hades" and "Hell". Same thing. Paradise is a place in heaven...not the throne room, but in heaven and Jesus can be there if He chooses to be. In heaven with God. |
|
|
|
Post by mike on Apr 18, 2018 8:47:33 GMT -6
Phil 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this [is] the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you. 25 And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; I posted this one yesterday as it hasn't come up or been applied to the discussion. Unfortunately I didn't have much time to say anything other than posting the scripture. Here Paul is desiring to depart this life and be with Christ. This doesnt sound like he would be "asleep" for 2000 years until resurrected, suddenly waking up thinking it was still 56 AD (or whatever year). I do side with you a bit stormyknight on the idea that we don't really sit back in "heaven" (Abrahams bosom) and watch what happens here on earth. It would simply contradict "no more tears" which is certainly a forward looking statement ( Rev 21:4) but could potentially be applied. But I think that if we are with Christ would we actually be focused on anything else but Him? When my brother passed a little over a year ago, I really contemplated this in great depth. I think anyone who has lost a loved one can relate. We want to believe that they are with the Lord, at least I do. I know my brothers body is finally at rest from the torment of physical disabilities. I believe that in some form/shape he is there with Christ, awaiting resurrection, for that is our hope and faith otherwise our faith is in vain ( 1 Cor 15:16)! Dont forget Stormy, Samuel was "conjured" as well...but thats a whole other debate! |
|
|
|
Post by venge on Apr 18, 2018 9:22:54 GMT -6
Ha! Good point with Samuel. Forgot about that.
|
|
|
|
Post by stormyknight on Apr 18, 2018 12:54:55 GMT -6
The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable, is it not? But even so, the rich man having been cast into the lake of fire, which is how I take the scene, "being in torment", has already stood before God and been judged. Having not had the Holy Spirit, one can safely assume that this has taken place at the Great White Throne judgement and Lazarus, assuming he had the Holy Spirit, has been at Abraham's side for a thousand years by then. But, there is something that has had me wondering for quite awhile now, although it is not scriptural. It does go along with the "young men will see visions and your old men will dream dreams" Acts 2:17. Do you all remember a few years ago, the young Jewish boy (14-15yr old maybe) that allegedly died and was taken to Heaven? Steven Ben Nun covered it in some of his videos then. Anyway, the boy related that as he was taken around Heaven, he noted that everyone he saw was 'learning Torah'. Makes me think that maybe after we die, we 'get schooled' on the Word until we know it by heart. In that sense, some have been at it for several thousand years. We only get one thousand!  I can't wait to find out. edit: by the way, where is the verse about Samuel? I'm having trouble locating it. Thanks, |
|
