neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Mar 13, 2018 16:47:36 GMT -6
As most are aware, we're very likely near the end of time here, but, whether it be blessing or curse, God and I have a bit of a Jesus/doubting-Thomas relationship.
In fact, it has been joked that there are times when Thomas lightly elbows Jesus and points down at me from heaven saying "and you though *I* was bad!"
So, if you will be patient and bear with the verbose ramblings of an under-educated Christian of poor memory, I have some questions that have bothered me for a long time.
When we "grow up" as Christians, and learn about the bible, we are inevitably told the histories of Noah, Abraham, Lot, Joshual, and so on. We learn in detail about the Lord Jesus Christ, and about he miracles He performed in the 33 years He spent here on earth as a man. Many things that might even be called common knowledge among Christians, but what I've also noticed is that, for me personally, I got this general impression of how God fulfills prophecy.
For example: "Noah, the place is a wreck, so I'm going to clean up. I need you to build a boat, cause I'm gonna make it rain. A LOT.", and then God proceeds to make it rain such that the entire world is covered with water, and everyone but Noah and his family die.
example 2: "Lot, the place is a wreck with immorality and wickedness, and I'm going to clean up. Get yourself and your family out of the area ASAP.", and then God nukes Sodom and Gomorrah.
example 3: "Joshua, go wipe those guys out, I am on your side", and then God stopped the sun for a day. (side note: sometimes I wonder if the end times will in a way mimic the events of Joshua chapter 10)
example 4: "This is my Son with Whom I am well pleased" :later: "It is finished.", and then there was an earthquake, a solar eclipse, the curtain was torn.
Overall it is easy to get the impression that God fills prophecy not only exactly, but He make sure there is no misinterpreting it.
Fast forward to today. We have many prophetic verses in Daniel and Isaiah that talk about 72 weeks and so on, and among the videos I've been watching, I see people saying that, for example, a day in December 2024 is the end of time. That is a very bold statement, because it is based on a verse in Daniel giving a set amount of time that is to pass, which is triggered by fulfillment of a Prohpecy. The claim is that said prophecy was fulfilled on April 1st, 1969.
Here-in is the first example of what I am questioning. There is very little information to confirm that on April 1st, 1969, that any official, or the government of Israel decreed that Jerusalem was to be rebuilt. There *are* documents that point to it, but the question I have come to ponder is whether or not these documents are stretching a small fact to make it fulfillment. Alternatively, we have to consider that satan may very well be doing everything he can to hide the truth that these things *did* happen.
A second example ties into that, where the claim is that if you go forward in time the allotted number of "weeks" in the same prophecy, you wind up at July 17th, 2017, which is the first day in 50 years that Jewish people prayed openly on the Temple Mount. Again, I question if this is not stretching things a bit to fit a prophecy.
A third example is 1948. The 70th anniversary of Israel becoming a nation is coming up very soon, but by what parameters do we confidently claim that "yes, in 1948, the prophecy given by our Lord was fulfilled"?
The major importance I see in all of this is accuracy. Because if Jewish people praying openly on the temple mount is fulfillment of a prophecy in Daniel, then I would pose that there maybe other prophecies we've not even noticed yet.
I don't really know how to put it to words at this point without giving a silly example, so.. here goes.
You see an advertisement for a firecracker. "$1 for a big bang!". So, you pay a dollar, and go home with your pyrotechnical wonder. Later that evening, you get a match, light the fuse and step back. (this half represents a prophecy given)
aaaand it let's out a bit of a pop, but you sort of wonder if it would have even hurt you if you held it in your hand, but you know that if you were to lawyer up and sue the company for false advertising, they would shut you down by simply claiming that what they consider a "big bang" is different from what you were expecting, and that due to it being subjective, it's not your fault that you didn't see it that way. (this represents the first scenario of prophecy fulfillment where-in Jewish people praying on the temple mount, while it seems trivial, is actually fulfillment and thus not trivial).
oooor.. It blows up. And I mean it blows up . We're talking that this little thing takes chunks out of the cement and breaks windows on the neighbors house across the street, and they are now calling the police, the fire crews, the ATF, and homeland security. (this represents fulfillment as I was raised to think of fulfillment, and am confident that many others have as well).
Ok, first off, I recognize that my first resolution may come across as implying that God is of the mind to short change us on an advertised outcome, that is not the intent here, it's just an example that fits. Secondly, with that aside, I think this is a good demonstration of what I'm getting at.
It has been a goal of mine for a very long time to understand what constitutes fulfillment in *our* time. Biblically we can see examples of phrophecy and fulfillment, but in today's age of wonders, perhaps some prophetic fulfillment gets lost in the noise? If God has chosen to bless us with knowing, even for a couple days, when the rapture is going to happen, it would behoove us to have a better understanding of which prophecies have been fulfilled, and solid evidence/reasoning as to *why* we can say they were.
I am not claiming that April 1st 1969, and July 17th 2017 *weren't* fulfillment. With all my heart I hope they were, because it means we are a LOT closer than many believe, but at the same time, I'm looking at the fizzled firecracker and wondering if it was the real deal or not.
I don't intend for any of this to come across as accusational, or a complaint. I am simply looking to refine what we know. To separate the wheat from the chaff, etc. There is a lot of noise right now, just as there was in September of last year, and I'm not really even looking to use the information to witness to others, though facts help. I'm tired, and more than anything ever in my life, even more than spending eternity in heaven, I just want to know the truth.
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Post by fitz on Mar 13, 2018 18:46:45 GMT -6
Hi neural , Good post! I'm sure you are not alone in questioning these things. I can't answer all of your concerns, but I'd like to knock off one. The most important one. We know for a fact that in 70 AD, Jerusalem was sacked, the temple completely destroyed as Jesus said it would be, and for all intents and purposes, Israel ceased to exist as a nation. Most were killed, the remainder were enslaved and carried off into distant lands. There were very few Jews that survived to stay in the land (though there were a handful). For the next 1900+ years, Israel did not exist as a nation, but the Jewish people did survive. This despite them being despised by pretty much everyone where they were dispersed. Even despite Hitler and Nazis attempting to exterminate them once and for all (over 6 million perished during WWII). In the late 1800, Mark Twain made a trip to Israel and he said it was a barren wasteland. Nothing grows, nothing lives. Useless! In 1948, the nation of Israel was reborn and the USA was the first country to officially recognize them. Immediately, the Jewish diaspora from around the world began to return to their ancient homeland. No other nation that existed 2000 years ago and was wiped off their land has ever been resurrected as Israel has been. And now there are nearly 8 million Jews living in Israel with more coming back every day. This is truly one of the most miraculous events the world has ever seen...EVER. Today, Israel is one of the most prosperous and wealthy nations on Earth. It is lush, green and they are blessed beyond belief. It is also the #1 sign that we are at the end of the age. The times of the Gentiles is at an end as this generation beginning in 1948 is the generation that will not pass away before all things have been fulfilled. IMHO. We can play with the dates a little bit, but 1948 was the year. If this were the only prophecy fulfilled in our lifetime, it would be enough for me to know that Jesus is at the door. Read Ezekiel 37..the dry bones are the nation of Israel, and God says he will revive them and bring them back into the land at the time of the end. Hope that helps a little. |
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2018 18:47:42 GMT -6
I think kjs said something along the lines of when we read the Bible we read it in a short amount of time (half hour) and learn about Noah or Lot or Abraham but if we were there watching things unfold live we'd realize those events took many years to transpire. Looking at what God has allowed us to see so far I am fairly convinced we are seeing what we think we are seeing. It is tough at times and can feel like we are squeezing things in to make them fit cuz we want them to. We study, pray and remain faithful by His strength, grace and mercy we will make it to that day one way or another |
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2018 19:00:56 GMT -6
I want to add that I am starting wonder if we understand the way we think we do. For instance the rapture and it's timing. Perhaps we are in the tribulation already and Jesus raptures us at the second coming. Not saying that to create debate about pre, mod, post blah blah blah but trying not to squeeze things into the box we may have created.
Monday morning QB is quite easy, it's a much different game when we can watch the film and understand what happened already
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Post by fitz on Mar 13, 2018 19:05:56 GMT -6
I want to add that I am starting wonder if we understand the way we think we do. For instance the rapture and it's timing. Perhaps we are in the tribulation already and Jesus raptures us at the second coming. Not saying that to create debate about pre, mod, post blah blah blah but trying not to squeeze things into the box we may have created. Monday morning QB is quite easy, it's a much different game when we can watch the film and understand what happened already However, I would just point out that most of 2nd Thessalonians was written to dispell this very idea.  Right? |
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Post by mike on Mar 13, 2018 19:44:30 GMT -6
fitz...gonna read it in the AM and try to convey my thoughts better
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Post by fitz on Mar 14, 2018 4:32:07 GMT -6
Awesome! 2 Thessalonians 2...is for you.  |
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2018 7:17:46 GMT -6
Ok fitz hopefully I can organize my thoughts and convey in a manner that makes sense. Although this could be a challenge as sometimes my thoughts dont make sense to me. Preface with me just thinking out loud and sharing, not being dogmatic, not saying the traditional view(s) are off and I'm on to some 'new' view, none of that. I've quoted this verse in other threads and perhaps it is this that causes me to consider some things I am/have pondered. in verse 26 they say "maybe he is the Christ" but in 27 they say "well we know where this guy came from and when Christ comes no one will know where he's from" of course Jesus is upset/frustrated and says "you know where i'm from and who I am..." Yet when we get to v. 31 we still see some of them uncertain or at least still with some doubt that this was 100% Him! Perhaps I'm not reading this section accurately? Mainly my point is that the people saw him physically perform miracles, heard of the many stories we are familiar with today and likely heard even more of those same stories than we have recorded, yet they still had doubts as to what they witnessed and who He was. Historically looking back on things, and hopefully to neural's point and my "monday morning QB" comment, we simply arent 100% sure of what we are seeing just like the people in Judea & Samaria werent 2000 yrs ago. Now with your suggested reading I understand what you are saying and certainly am not willing to turn this into another debate on the "man of sin" being an individual or "spirit" but for a moment suppose the man of sin is not an individual. The lawlessness in our world today is running rampant and the signs of the times are quite obvious, yet is it possible we are missing something or expecting something incorrectly? I guess that is where my comment and this dialogue stems from. WHAT IF (and thats a big what if)
the rapture that we expect isnt quite the rapture that will happen? Do I know what that looks like? NOPE! What if the GREAT SIGN was in fact the kicking off of a timeline we havent considered? What if we are at the start of the tribulation and the restrainer is the USA/Trump? I mean it is fairly obvious that Trump came from nowhere, against all odds to win the presidency. Clearly an act of God in my view. This country was most certainly headed right towards Sodom/Gomarrah territory with Obama in charge. Lawlessness (and I mean the God kind of lawlessness) was and is on the rise, yet we got a glimmer of morality from a man who is as pompous, & arrogant (and at least was immoral) as they come. Point being not about trump (the man) but about the big picture. Is what God is doing through him not "mortally wounding" the beast (system)?
I suppose I could go on, yet I'm thinking my communication here is starting to stray and likely will convolute the response further. Y'all are quite in tune with the world and events happening. I am trying to keep an open mind to the various possibilities around us. Could all of this play out the way most have thought and been taught for generations? YUP! and I wouldnt be surprised, but I want to continue to watch as sometimes God doesnt do things the way we expect Him to. Sometimes He doesnt do things the way we tell Him to either |
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Post by kjs on Mar 14, 2018 9:19:24 GMT -6
neural I believe what you are trying to do is – How we manage our expectations over what may or may not be a fulfillment of prophecy. The easiest way to do this is to locate those prophecies that have already been fulfilled and recorded in the Bible. People like Chuck Missler, Josh McDowell, and several others have books out that go through and explain everything that was prophesied, explain how it was fulfilled and even show how it was “spot on” in its fulfillment – so much so that one walks away stunned by accuracy. In your terms, these are the “big bangs” – the earth shattering events that proclaim that God is awesome and has everything under His control. This is all well and good in establishing the track record of the Bible; however, how do we apply it to those prophecies that have not been completely fulfilled at this point in history? In my opinion, the only way to do that is to take a “step of faith” forward and say this event appears to match this particular prophecy; if this event does represent a fulfillment or even a possible fulfillment then event B should not come into play. For example as fitz so elegantly explained – the “Return” of Israel as a nation after thousands of years not being a nation – seems to fulfill the Ezekiel 37 prophecy. Now fitz believes this occurred in 1948. Other – on another hand – believe The Balfour Declaration in 1917 was the “start” of the return of Israel. Still other believe, since Jerusalem was not returned to the nation of Israel until 1967, it is not until the 1967 event took place before the prophecy came into fulfillment. As shown above, even the “Return of Israel” event is widely debated on just WHEN it occurred. Most (though definitely not all Christians) believe this event “Return of Israel” started the “clock ticking” for all of the – end of days scenarios. If this is a true scenario (Return of Israel) – then one of these dates should be used to obtain the “next date” for a fulfillment. Namely, Jesus prophecy that “this generation” will not pass away, until the fulfillment of the Kingdom of God prophecy. Now in Genesis, God basically says He will only deal with man for 120 years. If The Balfour Declaration in 1917 is the true return – then sometime in the next twenty years – we should see the fulfillment. If the 1948 event is the true return – then anywhere between Now and the next ten years – we should see the fulfillment (a generation is 70 up to 80). If the 1967 event, is the true return – then it may take another twenty to thirty years before we see the Kingdom of God. Can we know the definitely fulfillment date? I doubt it, though we can speculate about it all we wish. Even this website is leery of pushing one date above all others. What this website does – is show how many of these “events” are coming to pass – faster and faster….. They feel (as do I) – with all of these multiple events – point to a very rapidly approaching end point.
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Post by fitz on Mar 14, 2018 10:05:34 GMT -6
Ok fitz hopefully I can organize my thoughts and convey in a manner that makes sense. Although this could be a challenge as sometimes my thoughts dont make sense to me. Preface with me just thinking out loud and sharing, not being dogmatic, not saying the traditional view(s) are off and I'm on to some 'new' view, none of that. I've quoted this verse in other threads and perhaps it is this that causes me to consider some things I am/have pondered. in verse 26 they say "maybe he is the Christ" but in 27 they say "well we know where this guy came from and when Christ comes no one will know where he's from" of course Jesus is upset/frustrated and says "you know where i'm from and who I am..." Yet when we get to v. 31 we still see some of them uncertain or at least still with some doubt that this was 100% Him! Perhaps I'm not reading this section accurately? Mainly my point is that the people saw him physically perform miracles, heard of the many stories we are familiar with today and likely heard even more of those same stories than we have recorded, yet they still had doubts as to what they witnessed and who He was. Historically looking back on things, and hopefully to neural 's point and my "monday morning QB" comment, we simply arent 100% sure of what we are seeing just like the people in Judea & Samaria werent 2000 yrs ago. Now with your suggested reading I understand what you are saying and certainly am not willing to turn this into another debate on the "man of sin" being an individual or "spirit" but for a moment suppose the man of sin is not an individual. The lawlessness in our world today is running rampant and the signs of the times are quite obvious, yet is it possible we are missing something or expecting something incorrectly? I guess that is where my comment and this dialogue stems from. WHAT IF (and thats a big what if)
the rapture that we expect isnt quite the rapture that will happen? Do I know what that looks like? NOPE! What if the GREAT SIGN was in fact the kicking off of a timeline we havent considered? What if we are at the start of the tribulation and the restrainer is the USA/Trump? I mean it is fairly obvious that Trump came from nowhere, against all odds to win the presidency. Clearly an act of God in my view. This country was most certainly headed right towards Sodom/Gomarrah territory with Obama in charge. Lawlessness (and I mean the God kind of lawlessness) was and is on the rise, yet we got a glimmer of morality from a man who is as pompous, & arrogant (and at least was immoral) as they come. Point being not about trump (the man) but about the big picture. Is what God is doing through him not "mortally wounding" the beast (system)?
I suppose I could go on, yet I'm thinking my communication here is starting to stray and likely will convolute the response further. Y'all are quite in tune with the world and events happening. I am trying to keep an open mind to the various possibilities around us. Could all of this play out the way most have thought and been taught for generations? YUP! and I wouldnt be surprised, but I want to continue to watch as sometimes God doesnt do things the way we expect Him to. Sometimes He doesnt do things the way we tell Him to either Thank you Mike. I appreciate you reading the chapter and considering these things. It’s what we are supposed to do! DO NOT take any of this as a personal lecture. In fact, this is not written directly to you, but rather for anyone that will read it. I am going to be dogmatic on certain things here and I will speak directly to the point. All is said in love, my brothers and sisters. I see a wavering…people are tired. Unsure if or when Jesus will come, getting off into strange theories, wild speculations, etc. Forums like these are for discussion, but this isn’t a Cooking forum where we can post our own theories on the best way to grill a steak. We are Christians and we have a sure word: 2 Peter 1:19 - 21 19 In addition, we have a most reliable prophetic word, and you would do well to pay attention to it, just as you would to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Most important, you must know that no prophecy of scripture represents the prophet’s own understanding of things, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will. Instead, men and women led by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
If you are unsure of anything, go back to the word and read it. It’s the only truth we have. Now Fitz is gonna preach… Regarding whether or not the Tribulation has begun or not...I will refer you back to 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. And here I will be fairly dogmatic, because Paul’s word to us is God’s Word to us and it is truth, and it can be clearly understood. As always, we take the plain meaning to be the main meaning, and a literal reading is best. We do not need to jump through hoops to make it say something else, and indeed, we should not! You are absolutely correct when you say we can’t be exactly sure how these end times events will unfold, but there are several things I believe we can be 100% sure of. 2 Thessalonians 2 was specifically written to that church because some had come in among them saying the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation) had already begun. Paul rejects this notion in the strongest terms and he gives us the key to knowing when it does begin. I am going to use a modern English version here because I don’t want anyone reading this to get confused by 400 year old Olde English (the KJV is wonderful…I quote from it all the time, but it’s not always easy). This is from the CEB, and I find it helpful to read something I am studying in multiple versions so as to get a well-rounded picture. 2 Brothers and sisters, we have a request for you concerning our Lord Jesus Christ’s coming and when we are gathered together to be with him. 2 We don’t want you to be easily confused in your mind or upset if you hear that the day of the Lord is already here, whether you hear it through some spirit, a message, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. That day won’t come unless the rebellion comes first and the person who is lawless is revealed, who is headed for destruction.
Paul says: 1. Don’t be confused, no matter who tells you, I am giving you the straight scoop. 2. Don’t be deceived. He reiterates it! 3. That day has not, nor will it come until this man (a person - the Antichrist) is revealed. As has been discussed in other threads on this forum, I know you know that I believe this man of Lawlessness is the Anti-Christ. And he is a man, the Son of Perdition. Yes, there is a spirit of Antichrist and this has been with us since Paul’s day and 1 John 4 points this out. Many men have come in this spirit, such as Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao, etc., but here Paul is clearly talking about a single man, and this translation calls him a person. A “person who”…we would never use the words “person” or “who” to describe the spirit of Antichrist. That would be a thing, so it would say: That day won’t come unless the rebellion comes first and the spirit which is lawless is revealed, which is headed for destruction. Not what it says. I find no translation that would lead us to believe that the Lawless One is the spirit of Antichrist and not a man. Now, you might say, well this was true in Paul’s day, but maybe the Tribulation has started in our day. I will tell you that the Tribulation has not started because we know a few things… 1. We (believers in Christ) have not been reserved for God’s wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The Day of the Lord is God’s wrath. This is the Tribulation. 2. The Tribulation is the time of Jacob’s trouble. It is not the time of the Church’s trouble and believers in Christ have no part in it. Because you and I are still on this Earth, we can know for sure that it has not begun. 3. We are not looking for the Antichrist. We are waiting for Jesus. Honestly, I don’t think we will know who he is until we are in heaven. Why, you may ask? Back to 2 Thess. 2… a. 5 You remember that I used to tell you these things while I was with you, don’t you? 6 Now you know what holds him back so that he can be revealed when his time comes. 7 The hidden plan to live without any law is at work now, but it will be secret only until the one who is holding it back is out of the way. 8 Then the person who is lawless will be revealed.
i. See all the personal pronouns used in describing the man of lawlessness? ii. So when will he be revealed? When the “restrainer” is taken out of the way. 1. Who is the “restrainer”? This is the Holy Spirit which is currently indwelling believers. The restrainer is not the USA or Trump. Can Trump restrain the evil that will permeate this planet during the Tribulation? No. He is just a man. The USA is destined for destruction as are the rest of the nations of the world. The USA can’t restrain this coming evil either. 2. Once WE are removed (raptured), then this person who is lawless will be revealed. We will already be in heaven. a. This is why I usually tell people who ask me who I think the Antichrist is…”I don’t care, I am not looking for him, I am waiting on Jesus.” 1 Thessalonians 10 and you are waiting for his Son from heaven. His Son is Jesus, who is the one he raised from the dead and who is the one who will rescue us from the coming wrath. i. If we are delivered from the wrath to come, we can’t be here for the start of the Tribulation. I could have shortened this sermon to that one verse alone. 4. We are to be encouraged by Paul’s teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5: a. 14 Since we believe that Jesus died and rose, so we also believe that God will bring with him those who have died in Jesus. 15 What we are saying is a message from the Lord: we who are alive and still around at the Lord’s coming definitely won’t go ahead of those who have died. 16 This is because the Lord himself will come down from heaven with the signal of a shout by the head angel and a blast on God’s trumpet. First, those who are dead in Christ will rise. 17 Then, we who are living and still around will be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet with the Lord in the air. That way we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
i. What encouragement (“comfort” in other translations) have we in being here for the Tribulation? Just the thought of it makes me shudder. My Amillennialist brothers and sisters appear to be so brave…now, but I can assure that they would not want to be here for the first 5 minutes of God’s wrath. It will be an unspeakable terror. b. 5 We don’t need to write to you about the timing and dates, brothers and sisters. 2 You know very well that the day of the Lord is going to come like a thief in the night. 3 When they are saying, “There is peace and security,” at that time sudden destruction will attack them, like labor pains start with a pregnant woman, and they definitely won’t escape. 4 But you aren’t in darkness, brothers and sisters, so the day won’t catch you by surprise like a thief. 5 All of you are children of light and children of the day. We don’t belong to night or darkness. 6 So then, let’s not sleep like the others, but let’s stay awake and stay sober. 7 People who sleep sleep at night, and people who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 Since we belong to the day, let’s stay sober, wearing faithfulness and love as a piece of armor that protects our body and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 God didn’t intend for us to suffer his wrath but rather to possess salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 Jesus died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with him. 11 So continue encouraging each other and building each other up, just like you are doing already.
i. The Day of the Lord comes as a thief, but we won’t be surprised (this DOES NOT mean we will receive divine revelation of the exact day before it happens, it just means that we believe this teaching on the pre-trib rapture, therefore, we fully expect Jesus to come). ii. Sudden destruction comes on “them” and “they” will not escape. iii. We cannot sleep, we must stay armored up. iv. God doesn’t intend for us to suffer this coming wrath, but to be saved when Jesus comes…before that wrath! v. One of the reasons Jesus died for us is so we who are alive in these last days can be saved from this horrible judgement that is coming on the whole world. He didn’t just save us, He saved us with perfect timing! vi. Again, we can be encouraged by these truths. Please folks, I hear the weariness in these threads. I see the angst. But let me tell you, it’s been this way for 2000 years. So, some are disappointed that we weren’t raptured on 9/23. Well, I get that, but I implore you, hold fast to the things you learned at first. Don’t turn aside to try and explain what you cannot explain by looking past the plain teaching of scripture. God made it easy enough for children to understand it. That's what we are. Children. Accept the plain reading/meaning because God did not set out make this a puzzle for you to solve. Yes, He wants us to study, and there are some mysteries we will not understand until we get to heaven. But have child like faith that when He says you will not go through the Tribulation, you will not. Done deal. We can all understand this clear teaching and cling to that promise. Be patient. God’s timing is perfect. He is coming. Watch! |
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Post by fitz on Mar 14, 2018 10:17:03 GMT -6
I HATE the way this forum's interface destroys a nicely formatted document.
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Post by mike on Mar 14, 2018 11:13:05 GMT -6
thanks fitz I appreciate your redirect for me. I "happened" along this sermon by David Jeremiah today and had a chance to listen to it. While I still may speculate about the coming unfolding of events, but what you spell out and what this video exposits helps bring me back to earth and remember how things will soon unfold.
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Post by fitz on Mar 14, 2018 12:11:27 GMT -6
Love Dr. J!
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Post by kjs on Mar 14, 2018 15:34:36 GMT -6
fitz I will disagree with you on one point ..... In 2 Thess 2: People keep calling it rebellion or fallen away --- BUT every single one of those translations keep excluding the definite article "THE" Paul placed it (the definite article) in this verse for a REASON --- so it needs to be USED So it needs to be called THE rebellion or THE Falling Away ...... WHICH is really wordy ........ but WHAT IF the word was describing something else..... LIKE THE Departure or The Departing ..... it (the definite article) would mean a heck of a lot more in this instance ..... christinprophecy.org/articles/2-thessalonians-2-3/ this article covers the topic a lot better than I ever could..... Ever since I first heard about this (using the word departure instead of falling away) .... this passage made much more sense to me..... Therefore, I think it is the most Correct translation ........ Read the article and come to your own viewpoints ....... but I think it says “the departure comes first.” As an additional FYI -- ALL of these early English translation used departure in this verse........... The Wycliffe Bible (1384) The Tyndale Bible (1526) The Coverdale Bible (1535) The Cranmer Bible (1539) The Great Bible (1540) The Beeches Bible (1576) The Geneva Bible (1608)
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Post by fitz on Mar 14, 2018 15:50:29 GMT -6
fitz I will disagree with you on one point ..... In 2 Thess 2: People keep calling it rebellion or fallen away --- BUT every single one of those translations keep excluding the definite article "THE" Paul placed it (the definite article) in this verse for a REASON --- so it needs to be USED So it needs to be called THE rebellion or THE Falling Away ...... WHICH is really wordy ........ but WHAT IF the word was describing something else..... LIKE THE Departure or The Departing ..... it (the definite article) would mean a heck of a lot more in this instance ..... christinprophecy.org/articles/2-thessalonians-2-3/ this article covers the topic a lot better than I ever could..... Ever since I first heard about this (using the word departure instead of falling away) .... this passage made much more sense to me..... Therefore, I think it is the most Correct translation ........ Read the article and come to your own viewpoints ....... but I think it says “the departure comes first.” As an additional FYI -- ALL of these early English translation used departure in this verse........... The Wycliffe Bible (1384) The Tyndale Bible (1526) The Coverdale Bible (1535) The Cranmer Bible (1539) The Great Bible (1540) The Beeches Bible (1576) The Geneva Bible (1608) No, we don't disagree at all, I didn't even address that point. I think you are disagreeing with the CEB translation which I copy/pasted. I actually belive the "Departure" word may be the better translation than "Apostasy". So no disagreement at all! Edit: We've always had apostasy in the church since Paul's day, and he talked about it. So I doubt that's the right meaning. I think it just backs up the pre-trib rapture even more. Departure! |
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Right?
