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Post by disciple4life on Feb 25, 2018 8:41:20 GMT -6
There is no reason to think that Gog and Magog ( Ezekiel 38-39 and Isaiah 17 ) is about to occur. Look at Obadiah and Joel both say will occur prior to the day of the Lord. You see Fitz, Sights like this one are what i call prophecy pushers. They need their junkies to keep coming back to them so they offer up ( in the name of prophecy ) anything that will give their clients the high they need to keep coming back. They have no interest in any real study that would enable people to do bible prophecy on their own. Notice below how each passage VERY CLEARLY states that Israel is not even in the land just prior to the day of the Lord. Obadiah 10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. 11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. 12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. 13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; 14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress. 15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Joel 2 3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.... 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The prophecy pushers on this sight have no answer with regard to the above. When Israel looses the land they will left fumbling the foot ball not knowing what to do. Gog and magog are real wars yet to be had but will take place at the battle of armagedon. It is the final battle between God and his enemy whom he has spoken of in the prophets . Ezekiel 38: 17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? Before you flip out fritz stop and think. Oh, I'm not going to flip out. Heck, I've been studying this for 40 years. Believe me, I've heard just about every fringe prophecy interpretation ever posited. And I see them posted here all the time. Isn't it amazing that there are millions of believers in Jesus, and we agree on how to be saved, but there are so many diverse opinions on how the end times will play out? At any rate, no worries. I'll stick to my guns. Gog-Magog happens in the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation, and I personally think it may occur very near the beginning. The vast majority of dispensational bible teachers would agree with me. But, you know, with so many diverse interpretations, inevitably, someone is going to get this wrong. Hello schooldad3 , fitz , others.
OK, I'm just another fellow watchman, and I can see the truth on both sides. One year ago, I would have given a very very different answer. I would have read both passages, and tried to cross -reference, and maybe do a Greek or Hebrew word study to see if there was some hidden clue - the key that would show us whether Gog of Magog was at the beginning or the end. ;-) Logically, they can't both be right. I mean- it just makes sense. My two cents on this are worth just that. I think the clue - missing piece of this is discussion lies in the phenomenal teaching of Amir Tsarfati, former colonel in the Israeli Air Force and Prophecy guru. He did an incredible talk on the Gog of Magog war, and its dual fulfillment. He brings up several amazing and very compelling points - one of which is that Gog of Magog occurs in two different passages, and these descriptions are totally totally different. This was like a light coming on for me - and I instantly connected it with how it's so very bizarre/ shocking to me how any one can see/ connect the "Last Trumpet" Paul talks about, in the rapture passage [1 Thes 4 I think ] as the trumpet of the 7th Angel in Revel 11:15. The descriptions of these are totally different and the goal/ end result is totally different.
The same is true of the Gog of Magog event Dual fulfillment. totally different descriptions, totally different times, different end results. One at the beginning, near or after the rapture, one at the end - second coming. *** The big difference here - from my perspective is that no- one is grossly violating Hermeneutics - or totally throwing out clear passages or doing eisegesis - reading something into the passage that is not there - Like we've all seen in the recent months with Jan 31.
In the shoutbox, one friend said that she/he couldn't support the 3rd Temple. I respect that position and I don't at all say that in a dismissive way. For me, I don't see a clear verse, but rather it fits a much larger pattern of scripture relating to Jerusalem being key/ central to end-times events. Just think for a minute - so many people have said - "Oh, people have been saying Christ was coming soon for thousands of years." Jerusalem wasn't even the capital of Israel until 1967. ;-) None of this stuff happens without Jerusalem being in the center. The Third Temple and the Abomination of Desolation happens in Jerusalem. Central to and inseparable from this fact is the huge issue of dividing Jerusalem between Arabs /Jordanians and the Jews - the so-called two-state solution. A very very plausible scenario that JD Farag believes is the most likely is that Jews will do anything to have the 3rd Temple - and this includes giving up land / Dividing Jerusalem. He sees this as the "Ultimate deal of all time" lynchpin -- Israel gets their 3rd Temple on the Mount which the Arabs claim. They want East Jerusalem as their state - [Yeah, the Jordanians, who already have their own country] They divide Jerusalem and agree to let Jews build the 3rd Temple.
As Christians - we all know and agree that Yeshuah will not dwell in the Temple. We're neither advocating this, nor supporting it - the eyes of the Jews are blinded for this time, but we have explicitly written markers - things that will happen in the first 3 1/2 years. At this time, there are plans for the temple, and all the instruments, and the priests, and even the pure-bred red heifer and the solid gold menorah. No temple construction started. It's not my belief that God's spirit will be in the temple, or that we have to sacrifice. But it means we go home sooner. For that reason - It makes no difference to me whether Putin builds the Temple or Erdogan, or Merkel or Elvis Presley.
Bill Gates and Warren Buffett could offer to donate all the money tomorrow. Until God's appointed time is here - my commemorative coin or Warren Buffet's billions won't change a thing. ;-) Maranatha.
Disciple4life.
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 10:01:02 GMT -6
Ok schooldad...could I ask that since you have issues typing would it be a challenge or too much for you to do another video? In that you could touch on points that are here regarding why you feel embassy is not tied to prophecy. I mean I am reading your response that way at least. Any one of us could be spot on with a theory or speculation and we just need to remain graceful towards one another and hold onto to things loosely |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 10:01:23 GMT -6
Ok schooldad...could I ask that since you have issues typing would it be a challenge or too much for you to do another video? In that you could touch on points that are here regarding why you feel embassy is not tied to prophecy. I mean I am reading your response that way at least. Any one of us could be spot on with a theory or speculation and we just need to remain graceful towards one another and hold onto to things loosely |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 10:04:16 GMT -6
i would be glad to do a webinar or live conference call. i am currently doing a series on the doctrine of antichrist with the intent of educating people to be able to recognize him. BTW here is my youtube channel www.youtube.com/user/schooldadwinchester |
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Post by witness1 on Feb 25, 2018 12:32:46 GMT -6
Thank you for the offer to speak on the phone schooldad3. You have certainly shown that you have spent a lot of time on this and are eager to share your knowledge with others. I am grateful for your work on the dragon sign and will look forward to listening to your antichrist teaching. |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 17:12:39 GMT -6
Shall I expect a call ? Let me point out one of the many problems with putting the battle of Gog and Magog in any immediate time frame. Look at
39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
Once it is over the lord will not let them pollute his holy name ant more. Well if the battle of Gog and Magog is on the horizon and the Lord will not let his name be polluted after it is over, what about the abomination of desolation ? That is still in the future. The only way around that is to parse phrases and words and pull things out of thin air trying to make it fit. I can just hear it. In the abomination of desolation (which occurs 3.5 years after the antichrist confirms the covenant with many KJV) some may say: it is the sanctuary that is polluted not Gods name. Oh really ? The Jews are going to allow the antichrist to confirm
(strengthen) Gods covenant with them and allow him into the holy of holies and not pollute Gods name by said actions ? Give me a break.
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Post by fitz on Feb 25, 2018 17:28:28 GMT -6
Where does scripture tell us that the Jews welcome or "allow" the A of D? The way I read it, the Jews are horrified when the AC does this , I assume by force.
Give me a break!
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Post by fitz on Feb 25, 2018 17:40:50 GMT -6
You see, it's the condescending attitude. Not very Christian like, schooldad3. Just sayin'. If you have a theory and you'd like to express it for all to see, then by all means, start writing. Then we can scrutinize it against scripture in our leisure time and form an opinion. But just taking random pot shots at eschatological views that have been widely accepted for many years is not winning you any converts. |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 19:25:22 GMT -6
I will be glad to explain it to you length if you care to really know. There is no way i could write this out but could spend as much time as possible talking to you. My goodness i hate these stupid writing forums. What ever happened to actually talking to people. Here is my email schooldadwinchester@gmail.com if you really want to know then send your number to me or your email and i will be glad to take what ever time it takes to explain it. Dozens of people have called and many have stayed in contact since. Some have even sent me equipment to help me make videos. others who have called even sent unsolicited funds to assist in off setting the expendetures. But i would be glad to Just explain it one on one. If you are willing. i will wait to hear from you.
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Post by Gary on Feb 25, 2018 19:58:37 GMT -6
There is no reason to think that Gog and Magog ( Ezekiel 38-39 and Isaiah 17 ) is about to occur. Look at Obadiah and Joel both say will occur prior to the day of the Lord. You see Fitz, Sights like this one are what i call prophecy pushers. They need their junkies to keep coming back to them so they offer up ( in the name of prophecy ) anything that will give their clients the high they need to keep coming back. They have no interest in any real study that would enable people to do bible prophecy on their own. Notice below how each passage VERY CLEARLY states that Israel is not even in the land just prior to the day of the Lord. Obadiah 10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. 11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. 12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. 13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity; 14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress. 15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Joel 2 3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink. 4 Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border. 7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it.... 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. The prophecy pushers on this sight have no answer with regard to the above. When Israel looses the land they will left fumbling the foot ball not knowing what to do. Gog and magog are real wars yet to be had but will take place at the battle of armagedon. It is the final battle between God and his enemy whom he has spoken of in the prophets . Ezekiel 38: 17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? Before you flip out fritz stop and think. Blessings brother. Brothers/sisters in Christ are frequently going to disagree on the non-essentials, but it's important it is done in love. Please be aware of rule #3 on the forum, which is very important for maintaining a friendly, conciliatory atmosphere as opposed to other message boards. To the specific accusation: we don't have "clients" and we don't make any profit for what we do. We also don't have advertisers. We watch and when something happens that seems to tie into Bible prophecy in some way, we do our best to make the connection and OPEN EYES to the nearness of Christ's coming because the Church is (very) largely asleep. For me, I think the embassy move is probably significant: 1. It coincides with Israel's 70th anniversary. 2. Jesus made a certain prediction that the final generation seeing the end days signs play out would see them all fulfilled. 3. Psalm 90:10 defines a generation as 70 or 80 years. 4. The embassy move is a major historical event regardless of the outcome as to my knowledge no other nation has their embassy in Jerusalem. It's stoking anger from Israel's Arab neighbors. 5. The timing of the Trump Administration's announcement seems at least somewhat to coincide with the news that their peace plan is about to be unveiled. Much more could be said about this, including the Sanhedrin and other Jewish groups' belief that Trump will play a pivotal role in getting the Third Temple built. In Christ, Gary |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 20:14:51 GMT -6
Just for starters try Daniel 12: 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
1. He gets some to forsake the holy covenant.
2. Arms will stand on his part to pollute the sanctuary, take away the daily sacrifice, and place the abomination of desolation.
3. Those doing such things will be corrupted by flatteries.
Now I am not the brightest bulb in the drawer but the grammar of the passage tells us that the ( them ) at the end of verse 30 are the ones who take up arms, take away the sacrifices, pollute the sanctuary, set up the A.D. and are corrupted by flatteries.
But there will be resistance.
... but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
When considering the above lets let Ezekiel teach us. Ezekiel 44.6-31. When the millennial temple is built, those Priests who polluted the sanctuary by bringing in unbelievers and non Jews and corrupted the people thru idolatry bringing their abominations in bring will be demoted to the more menial tasks of the temple service. However the house of Zadok will have resisted them and kept the charge of the sanctuary ( with many of them killed ) at great cost to themselves. They will be granted the superior positions in the temple service. If you remember, Hezekiah brought the Babylonians in to his house to show all of his treasures and the Lord destroyed Israel as a result. 2nd Kings 20:13-18. These people will be bringing the unbeliever into the house of the lord. One of them will even sit in the house of God proclaiming himself God. That is your abomination of desolation. The Levites will have facilitated it.
Now please, there is so much more to this i simply cannot write it out. Send your contact info and i will call you.
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 20:19:24 GMT -6
You see, it's the condescending attitude. Not very Christian like, schooldad3 . Just sayin'. If you have a theory and you'd like to express it for all to see, then by all means, start writing. Then we can scrutinize it against scripture in our leisure time and form an opinion. But just taking random pot shots at eschatological views that have been widely accepted for many years is not winning you any converts. |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 20:21:29 GMT -6
Where does scripture tell us that the Jews welcome or "allow" the A of D? The way I read it, the Jews are horrified when the AC does this , I assume by force. Give me a break! |
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Post by schooldad3 on Feb 25, 2018 20:22:17 GMT -6
Ok Friz i will give you a break. Here is your answer.
Just for starters try Daniel 12: 30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
1. He gets some to forsake the holy covenant.
2. Arms will stand on his part to pollute the sanctuary, take away the daily sacrifice, and place the abomination of desolation.
3. Those doing such things will be corrupted by flatteries.
Now I am not the brightest bulb in the drawer but the grammar of the passage tells us that the ( them ) at the end of verse 30 are the ones who take up arms, take away the sacrifices, pollute the sanctuary, set up the A.D. and are corrupted by flatteries.
But there will be resistance.
... but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
When considering the above lets let Ezekiel teach us. Ezekiel 44.6-31. When the millennial temple is built, those Priests who polluted the sanctuary by bringing in unbelievers and non Jews and corrupted the people thru idolatry bringing their abominations in bring will be demoted to the more menial tasks of the temple service. However the house of Zadok will have resisted them and kept the charge of the sanctuary ( with many of them killed ) at great cost to themselves. They will be granted the superior positions in the temple service. If you remember, Hezekiah brought the Babylonians in to his house to show all of his treasures and the Lord destroyed Israel as a result. 2nd Kings 20:13-18. These people will be bringing the unbeliever into the house of the lord. One of them will even sit in the house of God proclaiming himself God. That is your abomination of desolation. The Levites will have facilitated it.
Now please, there is so much more to this i simply cannot write it out. Send your contact info and i will call you.
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Post by witness1 on Feb 25, 2018 20:45:38 GMT -6
Shall I expect a call ? Let me point out one of the many problems with putting the battle of Gog and Magog in any immediate time frame. Look at 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. Once it is over the lord will not let them pollute his holy name ant more. Well if the battle of Gog and Magog is on the horizon and the Lord will not let his name be polluted after it is over, what about the abomination of desolation ? That is still in the future. The only way around that is to parse phrases and words and pull things out of thin air trying to make it fit. I can just hear it. In the abomination of desolation (which occurs 3.5 years after the antichrist confirms the covenant with many KJV) some may say: it is the sanctuary that is polluted not Gods name. Oh really ? The Jews are going to allow the antichrist to confirm (strengthen) Gods covenant with them and allow him into the holy of holies and not pollute Gods name by said actions ? Give me a break. It is interesting that you bring this up. Because I feel very strongly that the covenant of Daniel 9:27 is not about the antichrist but rather about Messiah. I think it has dual fulfillment in the Covenant of His Blood at the cross and then the marriage covenant of Ezekiel 16 (with Israel- this will be the second time the Lord passes over her, the first being her birth in 1948). Both of these strengthen/confirm the Abrahamic Covenant (Romans 15:8-9). I believe the Church age is at the midpoint of Daniel’s 70th week... the grand pause is between Christ’s resurrection and ours. Christ’s death made the sacrifice and offering cease in the middle of the week. And our living sacrifice on earth will also cease in the middle of the week with the rapture. Therefore I believe the abomination will happen very soon, and it will be something we don’t expect. I think it has to do with the church and false doctrines or possibly the antichrist revealing himself and performing miracles of some sort. I believe this is why we are told to have plenty of oil and pray we are able to stand (why else would those two warnings be included in scripture regarding the end times if we’re just going to disappear in our sleep one night?!?). Those who have the Holy Spirit will, I think, recognize the abomination and will groan at it and consequently be sealed with the tav mark like the young men in Ezekiel 9 when judgment comes. It doesn’t seem like this idea has really been confirmed by anyone here, and I know it’s not valid unless there are many witnesses. But like I said I feel pretty strongly about it. It will be interesting to see what comes in the next week or so. If I’m right, the abomination will happen soon and then perhaps your point about Gog and Magog needing to be after the abomination would be very valid but also everyone who sees it happening at the beginning is also validated. |
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