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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 4, 2017 20:15:48 GMT -6
I dont accept the worldly nation of Israel to be prophetic or the Lords nation because the Lord does not accept nations or have nations, or check passports or bloodlines, only the HEART..as all nationalities shall be part of the Lord people and all people who receive the Lord (including Jews that receive the Lord) will be accepted as equals.
But Yes, your perspective is that Jews are the chosen ones and by bloodlines have superior status. Though from Jewish parentage, I would disagree as Moses stated and prophesied..
And hence, your interpretation of Jacobs trouble would therefore have to be along the lines of the nation of Israel having trouble... I differ.
But the timeframe is not 7 years, not 14 years, but 21 years...three times seven... 21 years, this from a direct timeframe standpoint brings us to 2018.
But if you have a timeline of Jacobs trouble and can bring it up to date, I would love to check and compare. Its just a PAINT graphics, that can be made in about a half hour.
Hope to see it...
GBY
david
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Post by rt on Dec 4, 2017 23:04:07 GMT -6
I dont accept the worldly nation of Israel to be prophetic or the Lords nation because the Lord does not accept nations or have nations, or check passports or bloodlines, only the HEART..as all nationalities shall be part of the Lord people and all people who receive the Lord (including Jews that receive the Lord) will be accepted as equals. But Yes, your perspective is that Jews are the chosen ones and by bloodlines have superior status. Though from Jewish parentage, I would disagree as Moses stated and prophesied.. And hence, your interpretation of Jacobs trouble would therefore have to be along the lines of the nation of Israel having trouble... I differ. But the timeframe is not 7 years, not 14 years, but 21 years...three times seven... 21 years, this from a direct timeframe standpoint brings us to 2018. But if you have a timeline of Jacobs trouble and can bring it up to date, I would love to check and compare. Its just a PAINT graphics, that can be made in about a half hour. Hope to see it... GBY david Hi David, it isn't my "perspective" that the Jews were chosen by God. That is what the passage in Jeremiah indicates that the time of Jacob's trouble concerns, the version I quoted uses the word "distress" rather than the word "trouble". It is very clear from the passage that this "time" concerns the nation of Israel and Judah. To me it isn't really about bloodlines and status, it is about bloodlines and restoration. The nation of Israel made a covenant with God, they did not keep their part of the covenant which was to obey His commandments. God intends to work in the remnant of the nation to bring them to repentance and enable them to keep their promise to Him, when He writes His law upon their hearts. If you read Ezekiel you will see that during the Millennial reign Israel will perform the law in a rebuilt Temple, where the Glory of the Lord will return to. The land will be divided up among the tribes of Israel- not among Christians, though they will believe and know Christ for who He is, their Savior. They will keep the law and be reconciled to God in doing so they will fulfill the ordinances of the law, which were to be kept perpetually throughout their generations. This is what Paul talks about in his epistle to the Romans: Paul is not talking about an individual, he is talking about the nation of Israel he says clearly that "all Israel will be saved" , he goes on to quote scripture (Is 59:20) that the deliverer will "remove ungodliness from Jacob". "Jacob" refers to the nation of Israel. You still have not given me any scriptural support for your 21 years theory. If I follow your theory then as you claim, Jacob's Trouble began in 1997. Why did it begin then? why not 1948, or 1917, or any other year for that matter maybe 2020??, what is significant about 1997? Other than it neatly brings us to 2018 as an end time. Nothing significant happened in 1997 to indicate there was any start to any "trouble" that was extraordinary. And if Jacob's trouble doesn't have anything to do with "Jacob" then why is it called that? Even Daniel ties the time of distress, which we also call the "great tribulation", to the nation of Israel: Micheal stands guard over the sons of Daniel's people, in other words, the descendants of Israel, at the time of the great distress, Daniel's people (the Israelites), all those found written in the book will be rescued. Again this is a clear reference to the nation of Israel, to the descendants or "sons" of Daniel's people. Now the reason I say that the 70 weeks prophecy has to do with the nation of Israel and their restoration is because it was the answer given to Daniel's prayer for "his people": Daniel points out in his prayer that great calamity has fallen on Jerusalem and his people because they failed to repent of their iniquity, he prays specifically that God would turn His wrath away from Jerusalem and shine His face on His desolate sanctuary, this being the Temple. He also prays for God to forgive and take action. Then as we know Gabriel brings an answer: This is a direct answer to Daniel's prayer about when he can expect God to take action to forgive Israel (Daniel's people) and restore Jerusalem and the temple. Jesus even refers to the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11:31) as something for those in the future to look for: And who does Jesus tell to flee to the mountains when they see this event take place? Those in Judea. That word can refer to the country of Judea, but it can also mean those that belong to the Jewish race, which is the case in this passage. So it is the Jews in particular that are told to flee. We see this played out in the revelation here: It is generally accepted that the "woman" in this case is the nation of Israel, who gave birth to the "male Child" who we understand to be Jesus and some of us also believe that this "birth" includes the body, AKA the church along with the head AKA Christ. Jesus then goes on in Matthew to say that there will be a time of "great tribulation" a time of distress or trouble like no other that has ever been before. He directly ties this time of trouble to the abomination of desolation, which I understand some believe was fulfilled under the Romans when Titus invaded Jerusalem, that is not my view, because the great tribulation has not happened IMO. The Bowl judgments have not been poured out. The abomination of desolation is directly tied to the 70 weeks prophecy, which is directly tied to Daniel's prayer for the nation of Israel and Jerusalem. Can you please provide the scripture that you are referring to? I have clearly shown why I believe this is true, can you please show me how scripture supports someone other than the nation of Israel being the focus of Jacob's trouble? I do believe that there will be those who will also endure the great tribulation, the "other children" of the woman as Revelation 12 speaks of, who I believe would be the tribulation martyrs. But the ultimate purpose of that time is to bring Israel as a nation to repentance and reconcile them to God. Just because Jacob worked for 3 sets of 7 years or weeks, doesn't mean it applies to anything prophetic. what makes you think this is so? there is no evidence whatsoever in scripture for this, if there is I would be happy to take a look at it as soon as you provide it to me. You call it a "direct timeframe", what does that mean? Direct from where? From your thoughts? From a book you read? From a website somewhere? I honestly want to know, I am not trying to be rude, the whole thing just does not seem to jive with scripture for me, if you could kindly provide me with evidence therein, perhaps I can get a bit more in the groove. By the way, I just want you to know that I do not sit in judgment of you because you hold a different view than I do. I respect those who are willing to put their thoughts out there, and who are willing to go to bat for what they think is true. I have done it myself and have debated a lot! So please don't take mistake my passion for debate the wrong way. I am very passionate for rightly dividing God's word. I try to do so, but I also admit that I do not have a corner on the market. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2017 23:37:20 GMT -6
Thank you rt for your remarks. We need strong defenders of the scripture and I fully agree with your viewpoint here. |
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 5, 2017 1:52:58 GMT -6
I dont accept the worldly nation of Israel to be prophetic or the Lords nation because the Lord does not accept nations or have nations, or check passports or bloodlines, only the HEART..as all nationalities shall be part of the Lord people and all people who receive the Lord (including Jews that receive the Lord) will be accepted as equals. But Yes, your perspective is that Jews are the chosen ones and by bloodlines have superior status. Though from Jewish parentage, I would disagree as Moses stated and prophesied.. And hence, your interpretation of Jacobs trouble would therefore have to be along the lines of the nation of Israel having trouble... I differ. But the timeframe is not 7 years, not 14 years, but 21 years...three times seven... 21 years, this from a direct timeframe standpoint brings us to 2018. But if you have a timeline of Jacobs trouble and can bring it up to date, I would love to check and compare. Its just a PAINT graphics, that can be made in about a half hour. Hope to see it... GBY david
Hello My brother,
RT did a stellar job of articulating great points. I could not have said it better **and Please, rt, tell me how to take those quote fragments from a text, so we don't have to repost the entire thing. ;-)
David, We can't find 12 Italians on the planet who agree on a lasagna recipe - and yet we have widespread agreement across denominations - even people who don't believe in a rapture, that the Time of Jacob's trouble refers to the 7 year tribulation. **We never build our doctrine on public agreement, but when millions of people agree, you have to at least consider why? - Because scripture is clear that this prophecy is referring to both the Jewish People [lets say ethnicity here] and the Land of Israel, which has been given to the Jewish people by God.
- Second, we have explicitly clear proof - let's say redundant proof that the 144,000 in Revelation are Jews, and it explicitly says from the 12 Tribes, leaving no doubt that John might have been alluding to Christians grafted in, or circumcised Korean men.
- Third, if you read the passage again about Jacob, you can see a tremendous time of God blessing Jacob with sheep, - not at all a time of unparalled trouble - Tribulation. When you consider that the twelve tribes of Israel are the children of his two wives - this again is great blessing. In the OT, barrenness is always considered a curse and children were connected with blessing. ;-)
This is the main point of a fantastic article - David, and all others that I highly recommend.
It is so so solid in terms of Biblical Interpretation - Hermeneutics. It looks at the Historical and Cultural context. It looks to see what the Text says - the only passage in the Bible that uses the phrase - and thus - the starting point for understanding this prophecy, and clearly lays out the case for why this has not yet been fulfilled, and how the Tribulation and immediate/subsequent salvation of the Jews are inextricably linked. All the nations [Including the US] rejects Isreal, ***which raises a huge and very important question -- The US is Israel's strongest ally - Why would we go against Israel. - Not protect her? The hypothesis of J D Farag and others is that tens of millions of Americans will be raptured out - America will be in mass chaos, and not able to protect Israel. - Also, scripture says that the young lions - [believed by many to be England and USA] will protest the attack, - but do nothing.
This is the key points of the article - I highly recommend it. 1. The subject of the prophecy is about Israel having returned to their land after a period of dispersion (30:3 and 30:18)
2. It is a time of great distress in the land (30:4-7) where they are left isolated (30:12-14) as a punishment from God (30:11&14)
3. That Israel will be saved by Yahweh after this period of punishment (30:7-8, 30:10-23) 4. The conflict will be between Israel and a mysterious “him” who places a yoke upon Israel’s neck, places them in bonds, (30:8) “spoils” them and treats them as a “prey” (30:16) – all that he does to Israel will be done to him and his companions (30:16). He will be “stronger” than Israel (31:11)
5. This saving causes them to serve Yahweh and David (the beloved) their king who will be raised up (30:9) and the city of Jerusalem with its palace to be rebuilt (30:18)
6. A period of thanksgiving, peace, blessing and glory will ensue (30:19-20, 31:11-14). The governor of Israel will ‘draw near’ unto Yahweh (30:21). The people will be described as “my people” (30:22) having been redeemed and ransomed (31:11).
7. Those Jews outside of the land will be regathered after a Divine decree is sent to them (31:1-5). This will be taken “with weeping and supplications” and God will lead the people (31:9). A decree of this ingathering will go out to the nations (31:10).
8. The time period when this all occurs is defined as “The Latter Days” (30:24) in which this prophecy will be understood (‘consider’ AV). www.the-gospel-truth.info/when-is-the-time-of-jacobs-trouble/
Also, it should be noted here - that Saudi Arabia is Sunni - and enemies of Iran which are Shite, and Saudi Arabia just gave tens of billions to Israel and formed an alliance - Saudi Arabia acknowledges Israel's statehood, and the multi billions and Israel protects Saudi Arabia from Iranian attacks. hmmmm.
Maranatha, Disciple4life.
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Post by mike on Dec 5, 2017 7:16:40 GMT -6
I am going to multi-quote this for a variety of reasons 1. D4L you crack me up! and as a 100% italian I agree with you. The bigger argument is what do we call the red substance we put on pasta? Some say sauce some gravy, UGH!  Multi-quoting is best done on a computer, phones make it very difficult. Rather than "quick-reply" use the "Reply" button and in the 'ribbon' above is the "quote" button next to the smiley face. Click that then scroll down to the response area you want to quote, copy/paste it to the quote box. 2. I want to make sure @stephan 's response isnt taken incorrectly. Knowing Stephan for several months now I understand your perspective here brother, but when I first read this I realized it could be taken as is you were saying David was "wrong" and RT was "right" and properly defending the (correct) version of faith. While Stephan fully agrees with RT and others may too, there are other views on rapture timing which are debatable. So long as that debate is conducted with love and respect for each other, we're good! Again I dont think that was your intent Stephan, but I want to make sure this thread produces good conversation amongst brothers/sisters. rt is undoubtedly a defender of the scripture and her input is most welcome, as is yours davidjayjordan. Please help us understand a few things though David. As already noted is how you derive Jacobs trouble tying back to the man Jacob and the 21 year time frame starting in 1997, and although you've touched on it why you don't think Israel will become God's focus during the tribulation. (I do think its because of the differing viewpoints that leads to this difference on Israel. If the church is here through the tribulation then it makes better sense. Conversely if the church is gone at the outset of tribulation, it doesnt). I wont beat the point(s) as RT already eloquently outlined her thoughts on it. 3. RT-reading your post, I didnt take it as you being argumentative. 4. Personally speaking after 9/23 came and went, I began to be more open to the idea that the rapture could be "mid"-trib, so please continue with open minds as I am interested in the dialogue going forward. |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Dec 5, 2017 8:37:32 GMT -6
HI David, this is a really good thread you have started here. I was challenged by a friend who held your nearly exact position/reasoning except for the 21 year Jacobs Trouble... This quote above that you had here on page 1 of this thread is what caught my eye. 1) where is it that there is some "instant, magic conversion" by the Jews? or rather, who is making that argument or has said that there will be an instant magic conversion? 2) aren't we already trying to "win all people of all nationalities, and of all creeds and give them a chance to CHOOSE the Messiah..."? and the way things are going with "christians' today (prosperity doctrine, works salvation messages, etc..), I am not sure what will "change" our status quo to suddenly have this sense of urgency to specifically target Jews to accept to Jesus, and the "correct" gospel message. (I have heard many Christians in my walk incorrectly state the gospel massage) Just want to get more detail into your overall interpretation of the Word. My questions/comments concerning context of scripture to understand Revelation (pre/mid/post ratprue for one) would follow along with rt who mentioned something in brief. It has to do with God's Covenant. Blessings! |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 5, 2017 10:02:19 GMT -6
HI David, this is a really good thread you have started here. I was challenged by a friend who held your nearly exact position/reasoning except for the 21 year Jacobs Trouble... This quote above that you had here on page 1 of this thread is what caught my eye. 1) where is it that there is some "instant, magic conversion" by the Jews? or rather, who is making that argument or has said that there will be an instant magic conversion? 2) aren't we already trying to "win all people of all nationalities, and of all creeds and give them a chance to CHOOSE the Messiah..."? and the way things are going with "christians' today (prosperity doctrine, works salvation messages, etc..), I am not sure what will "change" our status quo to suddenly have this sense of urgency to specifically target Jews to accept to Jesus, and the "correct" gospel message. (I have heard many Christians in my walk incorrectly state the gospel massage) Just want to get more detail into your overall interpretation of the Word. My questions/comments concerning context of scripture to understand Revelation (pre/mid/post ratprue for one) would follow along with rt who mentioned something in brief. It has to do with God's Covenant. Blessings! Ha, cant master the multi-quote feature, even after all these years.. but thanks sis for the query... 1) where is it that there is some "instant, magic conversion" by the Jews? or rather, who is making that argument or has said that there will be an instant magic conversion? That comes because the logical conclusion is that with pre tribulation rapture theory where all of us experienced faithful and obedient, listening Christians get raptured before the main events happen and just disappear so that all that remains with us Christians gone is the Jewish people. They not knowing the Lord and not having been saved, and not being used to trusting the Lord... the Messiah.. Jesus. They instantly in a matter of days, must instantly get converted to Christianity and get instant faith without ever putting His principles to the test with the hard knocks of direct experience must decide who the AC is, whats happening, should they take the Mark, should they run, should they yield, should they pretend... I dont think that makes any sense..... but that is the theology of pre Tribualtion Rapture. They make the 2 Witnesses Jewish, the followers Jewish, and seem to think these new converts will then start reading the Christian prophecy book of Revelation to quide them Again I would say that isnt a reasonable scenario of events 2) aren't we already trying to "win all people of all nationalities, and of all creeds and give them a chance to CHOOSE the Messiah..."?
Exactly, lets win them by showing them their Old Testament they should know but dont. Lets show them prophecy about the exact year of the Messiah death from Daniel 9, lets witness and show them the love of Jesus that laws can not bring them. Lets show them that grave, mercy and love is from the Lord, and that only He can save them not bloodlines, nationalities, heritages, parentage, or supposed culture.... lets show em they are sinners like us and equal to us rather than above us. we are EQUAL, we are all human...show them from scriptures, as with all, give them the solution of SALVATION by the Messiah.
But the vast majority fo Christians are taught that Christians are secondary, grated branches or other silly terms whereas the Jews are first and foremost and superior. Therefore they do not WITNESS to the Jews... and if a Jewish person does get slavation from the Lord, they deem them different than regular so called gentile Christians, a converted Jews or church people call themselves Messianic Jews...
No, Im not into inequality and superiority ..it divides the brethren.
We are one, not two... no group or background makes us better or worst than our brethren. A jewish person who becomes a Christian is just simply a Christian..
Lets win them even though the Pope told his followers NOT to tell them about the Lord, or some denominations or almost all denominations deem them chosen ones even if they have not chosen the CHOSEN ONE.
Equality and CHOICE is the key to love and life and CHRISTIANITY
Read and study or consider
www.davidjayjordan.com/ProphecyDiscernment-EqualityandChoice.html
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 5, 2017 10:07:01 GMT -6
Mucked up my boxes and replies again.. oh well it shows lack of perfection.. I was a sinner, and still am a sinner..... no one is perfcet, all of us are sinners including me and you and our brethren the Jews... and ******** and ******* because He created us all..... Figure out ***** and **** refers to and you have a whole new TOPIC which should be discussed Onward Christian Soldiers, lets winem to the Lord while we have a chance and while they have a chance to CHOSE HIM www.davidjayjordan.com/Jesus.html |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 5, 2017 10:11:43 GMT -6
Gods Covenant is and always is the same for all, no shortcuts.... all must choose to be chosen. No different with our Christian forefathers, of Adam to Moses to the prophets to all of our Christain forefathers who believed and choose the Messiah to come, the Son of Man to come, the Lamb that was to come... or those of us that chose the Lord after He had come and been HERE on Earth and sacrificed himself for us. Our salvation is the SAME
There is not two paths but one... not two separate rules or qualifications. Its always been the same...ONE way, one truth, one life.. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life... ONE COVENANT...
Dont let people try to convince you there are two... One means ONE, for even the THREE are ONE (Trinity)
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Post by Natalie on Dec 5, 2017 10:20:08 GMT -6
Here is maybe a different direction...What do you see is the purpose of the 7 years?
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Post by mike on Dec 5, 2017 10:20:22 GMT -6
David,
I'm going to have to disagree with you here (bolded below).
The rapture has nothing to do with how faithful, obedient or attentive we are or aren't. See what you did here was add a qualifier of works, rather than faith alone. If by works (whether you add faith with works or works alone) none would be raptured, in fact none saved. So the logical conclusion to any rapture theory is faith in Christ PERIOD. There are going to be millions who will be raptured who will have no idea where they are (theoretically) from one blink of the eye to the next.
See people believe in Christ, but dont put that faith/believe in action in the day to day lives. Frankly while I try, I fail at it too. Maybe I dont fail as much as the guy sitting next to me right now, maybe I fail more! Point being God judges the hearts of men and only those who reject the gospel will be left behind.
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 5, 2017 12:35:49 GMT -6
Gods Covenant is and always is the same for all, no shortcuts.... all must choose to be chosen. No different with our Christian forefathers, of Adam to Moses to the prophets to all of our Christain forefathers who believed and choose the Messiah to come, the Son of Man to come, the Lamb that was to come... or those of us that chose the Lord after He had come and been HERE on Earth and sacrificed himself for us. Our salvation is the SAME There is not two paths but one... not two separate rules or qualifications. Its always been the same...ONE way, one truth, one life.. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life... ONE COVENANT... Dont let people try to convince you there are two... One means ONE, for even the THREE are ONE (Trinity) Hello friend, It seems from this post David, that you are confusing salvation with God's covenant. YES!! Amen - to the part that Salvation in Christ is by faith to all who accept and repent - to the Gentile, and Jew. Paul's words of confessing our sins with our mouth and believing in our heart that God has raised Jesus/ Jesus is Lord and we are saved - this is for all mankind. "Every one who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Christ's death was for all mankind. Romans says he died once for all people,[Mankind] and Hebrews affirms he tasted death for every one - not just a select few. This is vastly different from God's promise that He made with Israel - and this promise was an everlasting covenant. For all time - never to be retracted or broken.
No one is saying/ claiming that there are two paths to God - "No one comes to God the Father - except through Me -[Jesus Christ] John 14:6 "Salvation is found in no one else. -- There is no other name under Heaven, given among men, by which you must be saved." There are very specific promises that God made to the people of Israel - as well as special commandments which were exclusively for his people - such as keeping the feasts - which all point to the Messiah. [The feasts foreshadow the Messiah] In addition to dietary commandments, there was also the external sign of God's everlasting covenant with Israel - which was circumcision. He even said that no stranger or foreigner could take part in Passover unless they were circumcised.
One of the many passages that show God's special covenant with Israel is the one that says that God will bless those who Bless Israel, and will curse those/whoever curses them. Another passage says that Israel is the apple of God's eye.
***Also, no one As Far As I Know ever posted on here (or any other thread) that all the Jews will be saved instantly. Where did you hear that? But one of the many, many reasons many people see the Fall Feasts as closely connected with End times is that Christ fulfilled all the first Four Spring Feasts - in perfect order and in perfect precision - and it's also written in Zechariah 14 that All Nations of the earth - Jews and Gentiles alike will celebrate the Feast of Booths at the end of the age. [So that's 5 out of 7] I won't beat this point here - but the larger point is that Paul said the Gospel was revealed to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. What better way to get them to see the Gospel than to have the Messiah come back - - On their Feast day - Even Jews recognize that people will be resurrected on Yom Teruah - hmm. - And take a Gentile Bride - You talk about motivating them to search and read scripture. Wouldn't that just burn your bagel. !! - Also there will be 144,000 Jewish who are saved and preach the news of the Messiah. Missionaries - What a great evangelistic event. I'm sure that when tens of millions of Americans are raptured out - as JD Farag teaches - that America - their greatest ally - won't be able to come to their defense.
Maranatha. !!
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Post by rt on Dec 5, 2017 12:57:47 GMT -6
I would answer question number 1 with this: First of all no one says it as you have stated, but Scripture has certainly said that Israel as a nation will be redeemed. God said it. read through the old testament prophets, it is all over the place. The nation of Israel will be reconciled to God. I am not saying it, God does. The prophecies of the OT aren't rendered obsolete by the New testament or the New covenant. God's promises do not go away. I would also suggest that a pre trib rapture does bring about the conditions that will facilitate Israel's national repentance. But that is not to say that there won't also be others that will come to faith in Christ during that time from among the Gentile nations. I do not think it will be a matter of days, but a matter of years and the extreme conditions that the time of distress or trouble or tribulation will be used to bring it about. Isn't that exactly the pattern we see throughout Israel's history? Extreme times of trouble have brought about at least partial repentance. In the future time of trouble Israel will cry out for salvation, isn't that what the passage in Jeremiah says? Jacobs trouble wasn't with Laban, it was with God. The nation of Israel entered into a perpetual covenant with God, perpetual means that it was to continue throughout their generations. They couldn't get through a single generation and keep it. God is going to help them to keep it, just like He helped us to become righteous in Christ, His Spirit will also provide the means for them to fulfill their covenant with Him.
There is a reason that your opposing scenario doesn't make sense, because it doesn't and it is not what pre-tribulation rapture adherents would find sensible either. Who claims that the nation of Israel has to be converted in a matter of days? Who says that they cannot have faith without first putting principles to the test, and talk about hard knocks, they will be facing the hardest times ever experienced on the planet. They will and have always had God's word to compel them toward faith, they have had the testimony of true followers of Christ for centuries and they will have the everlasting gospel. They will also have the unfolding of Old Testament prophecies that they have studied and known unfold before their very eyes, as well as new testament prophecies that they have denied. So I would disagree with your idea of pre trib theology. Sorry to say you have it wrong. That is not what I believe or what I think others believe either.
So look at this passage, there is a lot here, God is going to make a new covenant with who? With the house of Israel and Judah. This covenant is not like the one received on Mt. Sinai- God will put His law within them, He will write it on their hearts. When does He do this? "After those days" this begs the question after what days? Lo and behold, just look back at chapter 31- the days of Jacob's trouble, the time of great distress for the nation of Israel. Don't take my word for it go read it for yourself. The prophet describes God's lament over the nation and their sin but then goes on to say how Israel will be restored after the time of Jacob's trouble, again this is not me saying this, this is directly from scripture, which you would have to ignore in order to hold the view that you do:
This new covenant comes after the time of Jacob's trouble, when God has forgiven the nation of Israel and yes He restores them as "Chief of nations".
So how can you deny these passages and the many others throughout the Old Testament that talk about Israel's restoration?
The answer to your second question is yes, absolutely we are trying to and have won people to Christ from every nation tongue and tribe. And yes we should witness to them from scripture, because it is God's word that has the power to change lives and you being of Jewish parentage are a testament to that. However I would correct you on your assumption that pre-tibbers view Jews as superior somehow. In fact we believe scripture when it tells us:
What I think you don't understand about us is that we see the work of God as being done in stages, through dispensations of different covenant ages. We currently live within the church age, and we as believers function under the New covenant in Christ. We are members of His body,spiritually speaking. This includes people of every tribe tongue and nation including those who are Jews. But there will come a time in the future, when the church age will end and God will begin His work to restore Israel. In order for that restoration to start, the woman has to give birth to the child as I mentioned in my previous post (Malachi). This giving birth to me represents the church age, beginning first with the resurrection or birth if you will, of Christ the head, ending with the birth of His body when the church is raptured /caught up to Christ. This removal has to take place before God can work to restore Israel. It brings an end to the Church age. It doesn't mean that we are superior or that Israel is superior, as Paul states it, we should not be arrogant concerning the natural branches that will be re-grafted into their own olive tree. You said "the vast majority of Christians are taught that Christians are secondary, grated branches or other silly terms", first of all these are not silly terms, they are scriptural. The analogy was given to us by the apostle Paul, do you dispute this? As I have said we would not accept that Christians or Israel are secondary as far as salvation is concerned or that one or the other is superior in God's eyes somehow. Only that the timing is secondary, Christians first, Israel second. Neither is more worthy than the other because all are supported by the root of the Olive tree, all are equally supported by the life giving root of salvation that comes through Christ and Christ alone for there is no other way.
Paul tells us when we can expect this re-grafting of the "natural olive branches" which is when the fullness of the gentiles comes in. This in my opinion happens around the midpoint of the 70th week at the sound of the 7 thunders. This is not to be confused with the end of the church age. You see I do see that there will be many gentiles who are also saved during the 70th week. Gentiles who are not necessarily considered part of the body of Christ, but who are nonetheless brought to faith and who trust Christ as their Savior. These IMO become the tribulation saints. This is not necessarily a main stream idea though, so take it for what it's worth. In any case both the wild olive branches and the natural branches will co exist together in faith as grafted in branches, they will inherit eternity equally with no partiality on God's part. In the end we are all part of the same tree of Salvation through Christ the root.
Now I have provided a thorough answer to your questions, I would love to hear your answers to mine. I have looked at your link and read through your article on Equality and choice. I would tend to agree with much that you had to say there but I don't see how that relates to this topic.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2017 13:56:25 GMT -6
Hi all -
I'm not really weighing in on this topic too heavily - but I did want to add some food for thought to the topic:
Jacob's Trouble:
Jacob had two periods of trouble and each lasted 21 years. The first was in the achieving of his wives. The second was in absence from his son, Joseph. Joseph entered Egypt at 18 and was reunited with this Father at 39.
Also, Jacob's nation - Israel - was in captivity in Egypt for 210 years - Jacob's trouble times 10. (yes, I realize that most think they were in captivity for 400 or 430 years, but this is mathematically not possible and is based on a couple misunderstandings of scripture)
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Multiple Prophetic Targets
Over the years, a great number of prophecy teachers have written a great number of books that tend to blend together different entities even though scripture is not equating them all. Physical Jerusalem, Physical Israel, Physical Judah and New Jerusalem, Spiritual Israel, and Spiritual Judah. The bible does not always use the term "New Jerusalem" when it is talking about New Jerusalem.
Israel today is not Israel of old. Nor is it spiritual Israel. Does modern Israel even have the right to that name? Are they the decedents of Joseph's sons, who carry the birthright? No. They are not.
There is much more going on in much of these prophecies then I think we may appreciate. We then need to throw in Ishmael, Esau, Edom, etc.
Some of this is what causes the great disputes we have - different people are seeing different objects as the target of prophecy. The bible uses a word - but there are different opinions about what the actual meaning is.
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Destruction of Jerusalem
Another thing I don't see talked about in prophecy today - likely because of the view most take on Israel - is Jeremiah 19 -
Jer 19:8 And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof.
Jer 19:9 And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.
Jer 19:10 Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee,
Jer 19:11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury.
Jer 19:12 Thus will I do unto this place, saith the LORD, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet:
This states that Jerusalem will be utterly desolate and never made whole again. Jerusalem has been destroyed many times - and rebuilt each time.
How do we deal with this prophecy that seems to say it will be destroyed and never made whole again?
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We are still in the unknown
I'm not sure what is prompting me to post theses points - I guess, I'm trying to say something like - for centuries people have thought they had this all figured out. Each is so adamant that their position is supported by scripture. But God has a way of keeping secret the things He wants to until He reveals them.
There is much still hidden - perhaps by working together, starting with the assumption that what we already know is likely incorrect in a great number of ways, we may ask the Lord to teach us as a team.
SK
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Post by rt on Dec 5, 2017 14:43:09 GMT -6
@silentknight wrote the following:
Hi SK, I believe that this prophecy was meant for the inhabitants and the city of that current time.
This is what the jar symbolizes, those particular people and the city of that particular time were to be broken. The emphasis is on the people, those meant for destruction who would die. They would be buried in Topheth, the place of fire. As we know not all the inhabitants of Jerusalem were killed, many were carried off to Babylon. And we also know that Jerusalem was rebuilt along with the Temple after the captivity. The prophecy never states that it was to be destroyed and never made whole again. It was its people that were destined for death that could not be restored to God again. It is also true that the city of Jerusalem has never been rebuilt like it was in the days of the first temple. But we know from the prophet Ezekiel that it will be restored and the Temple rebuilt and will be the center of God's administration during the Millennial reign of Christ.
So the assumption that it "seems" like the prophecy is saying one thing is an incorrect assumption which is born out by history and scripture. We cannot ignore what just about all the prophets of the Old testament speak of, a glorious future for the nation of Israel and their spiritual reconciliation to God. This is a recurring theme throughout the prophets. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Nahum, Zechariah, Malachi, have passages that talk about the restoration of the nation of Israel. It is the reason why the Jews of Christ's day rejected Him as their Savior, because He did not restore the nation according to what they thought was prophesied. They did not understand that spiritual restoration is the prerequisite to a political restoration, with Jesus reigning over them.
I would encourage every one here to read the OT books of the Prophets and study them and see for yourselves. This is the whole purpose for the 70 weeks prophecy. It is why Jerusalem and the temple are featured in NT end times prophecy as well. If you cannot understand this foundation that underpins all of prophecy, you will fail at understanding the prophetic word entirely. But please do not just take it on my word, study it for yourselves and then by all means feel free to come back and prove me wrong.
I agree there is so much we do not know and understand and I believe much we will never fully understand that will remain hidden from us. But there is a lot we can understand that is plainly given to us in scripture. The restoration of the nation of Israel is an obvious one, at least to me. It is the theme of all the prophets including Daniel. The church may have taken precedence over Israel for a time, but God will fulfill His word to the nation of Israel.
And isn't that what we are doing here- working as a team? I think assumptions are not all bad and not all should be dismissed outright, but they do need to be scrutinized to see how they hold up when measured against scripture. If they hold up, then we should consider their plausibility, if not then we should disregard them. We should keep an open mind but only so far as our assumptions fall in line with God's word, then we can truly learn form one another and from God as we dig into the truths of His word, because it is His word that truly teaches us.
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