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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 19:13:49 GMT -6
I never saw any place in the rules HERE, where we had to believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture...and seeing I want to stay within the rules..... can my different opinion be written down... or discussed.... or should I just avoid the subject totally as not to offend those that believe we get raptured at a different time frame.
Its not paramount to my interpretations as at mid point of the Last SEVEN YEARS (before the Lord comes) we shall all find out anyway. Some might be disappointed, some might think they were left behind, some might wonder why all are still HERE, and some might be so glad they were prepared and obeyed the Lords End Time directions. Lots of possibilities...
If it cant be discussed then I will avoid mentioning it in a direct topic, yet might elude to our involvment in the Great Tribulation and our TWO Christian Prophets (Witnesses) actions in the Great Tribulation, only if needed in a discussion .....of possibilities.
GBY
Onward Christian Soldirs
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Post by Natalie on Dec 3, 2017 19:20:57 GMT -6
You do not have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to participate here. Just be aware that most of those actively posting here are probably pre-trib.
Some of the other things you have posted may get questions also...for example you call them Christian Prophets where as the Bible does not. You have posted that Christians flee into the wilderness where most here would say that it is the Jews that flee. I saw a date of 1997 that Jacob's Trouble started, but most would say that the last 7yrs (Daniel's 70th week) is the Time of Jacob's Trouble.
Just some things for you to be aware of that are going to raise questions.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 3, 2017 19:27:36 GMT -6
davidjayjordanThanks for your inquiry and your prudence. The board rule related to what you are discussing is There is not rule (AFAIK) prohibiting a mid-trib or end-of-trib harpazo hypothesis. However, there are two points you should take into consideration when expressing your perspectives/hypotheses/speculations: 1. if you take an end-of-trib harpazo view, be prepared to vigorously explain how to overcome the illogic of being raptured to Heaven, only to immediately return to Earth in our Lord's second coming (what would be the point?). Also be prepared to defend a position that needs to adequately explain how the church is not subject to judgement (in the sense of going through the Trib). 2. be careful to express your viewpoints with (for lack of a better term) 'qualifiers'. Vigorous debate is okay here, so you may be challenged on your view. Particularly if you express it in absolute terms. When using qualifiers, it is generally better form to present the qualification early on, rather than at the end (this is my suggestion, as it tends to reduce the friction caused be people misinterpreting your position as an absolute). You may find it helpful to know that there are a few positions on here that are 'pre-wrath' and 'pre-trumpet judgement' types of positions. I hope you find the content and people here edifying.
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Post by yardstick on Dec 3, 2017 19:29:04 GMT -6
You do not have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to participate here. Just be aware that most of those actively posting here are probably pre-trib. Some of the other things you have posted may get questions also...for example you call them Christian Prophets where as the Bible does not. You have posted that Christians flee into the wilderness where most here would say that it is the Jews that flee. I saw a date of 1997 that Jacob's Trouble started, but most would say that the last 7yrs (Daniel's 70th week) is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Just some things for you to be aware of that are going to raise questions. Ah, Natalie, you beat me to it by an edit. haha. |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 23:39:56 GMT -6
You do not have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to participate here. Just be aware that most of those actively posting here are probably pre-trib. Some of the other things you have posted may get questions also...for example you call them Christian Prophets where as the Bible does not. You have posted that Christians flee into the wilderness where most here would say that it is the Jews that flee. I saw a date of 1997 that Jacob's Trouble started, but most would say that the last 7yrs (Daniel's 70th week) is the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Just some things for you to be aware of that are going to raise questions. Yes, I believe and want to be in the Great Tribulation and follow our two Christian Witnesses.... as Revelation is for Christians, who know the Lord. The Jewish people are not going to go out and buy the New Testament in the Great Tribulation to understand the details for them, and we would not have been given them if it wasnt for us and if we were not to be HERE. We have to win them with His LOVE now, and not wait for their supposed magic instant conversion. We have to teach them the Lords prophecy now, so they understand that Jesus fulilled all Messianic prophecies, so they like others do not get caught up believeing the lie of the AC as the Messiah. We have to win all people of all nationalities, and of all creeds and give them a chance to CHOOSE the Messiah... JESUS IMO I am not nationalistic, Yes, I have Jewish parentage but Christianity is all about CHOICE rather than bloodlines. And of course, most Christians believe in pre-Tribulation Rapture..... and want to believe that stronger people go through the Tribualtion rather than themselves, so substitute Jews into their positions in the Great Tribulation But we are to win them and all other people to the Lord, an get them to experence real FAITH in real Events before they are called to act for the Lord in the End Times. Im used to defending my psotions nicely when needed and asked. No problem. But personally, because it offends people too much when they think they will have to go through trials and tribulations, I usually dont start that conversation. Yet when asked directly I answer.... answer him that asketh you..... its one of our requirements from the Lord. As for the 21 years of Jacobs Trouble, that is a great time frame..... as 1997 is a well establishable time ending.... including 4004 BC, 1004 BC, 4BC, and 1997 AD Great idea for a TOPIC and explanation and verses and time frames...for its all by design.... foreknowledge so we can have foreknowledge and have the faith that we are in line with the Lords workings in the End Time.... and hence be preserved and fighting away til the end... Onward Christian Soldiers IHS David |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 3, 2017 23:49:14 GMT -6
So if the TOPIC HERE is Post Trib Rapture.. allow me to post a starting past article of mine... Ha, that states Rapture After the Tribulation
*********************************************
Rapture after Tribulation
If there is anything we need to understand about Prophecy, it's that Jesus doesn't come back until AFTER the Tribulation
and not before. We are not raptured until After the worst period of His-story, and we therefore have to be prepared
mentally and spiritually. So please go over this very basic of all prophetic principles over and over again and from all
scriptures in the Old Testament and New Testament until it is ingrained in your heart. But for an introduction, let's go over
the Lord's very own words that absolutely state this from Mathew 24 of the Gospels. My comments will be in .....
(parenthesis).
******************************
Mathew 24:3 And as (Jesus) sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when
shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy (2nd) Coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4-8 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my
name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom
against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of
sorrows. (Jesus is saying, we have to be prepared for all these things because we have to go through them. Why because...)
Mat 24:9-11 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my
name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false
prophets shall rise, (including the rise of the Anti-Christ himself) and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall
abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (but our faith and love for Him and others has to remain strong)
Mat 24:13-14 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this Gospel (this prophecy) of the
kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (and not before,
because we have to reach all of the lost sheep of the house of spiritual Israel before the Shepherd returns.)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the
holy place, -whoso readeth, let him understand:- (So let's try to understand this timing and as a visual help as we go along
check the Daniel Timeline. Why, because the setting up of the Anti-Christ computer in the Temple at Jerusalem is the sign
that the Tribulation of 1260 days has begun. See also Revelation Timeline)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (Yes, because seeing we have been Gathered by the
Lord just prior to this, then we are told to flee together in a final End-Time Exodus with our Two Prophets leading us
through the wilderness.)
Mat 24:21 For THEN shall be GREAT TRIBULATION such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor ever shall be. (Yes, for when the Abomination of Desolations is set up, and the financial religious MARK of the
Beast in place, then the Anti-Christ will declare war on us and any that don't take His MARK and then shall be Great
Tribulation)
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened. (Why because 'it is written' that these terrible time only lasts 1260 days, or three and a half years. For
do notice that we, the elect are still here, and have been forewarned.)
Mat 24:23-26 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false
Christs, and false prophets, (Including the one and only Anti-Christ and His False Prophet) and shall shew great signs and
wonders; (SEE Revelation 13: 13) insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (But it isn't possible
if we know His Prophetic Word beforehand) Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold,
he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; (or in the Holy of Holies) believe it not !!
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the (2nd) Coming of
the Son of Man be.
Mat 24:29-30 (For) Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days (exactly 1260 days) shall the sun be darkened, and
the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And
THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (So when does the Lord return, He distinctly
said to His disciples, AFTER the Tribulation, and THEN He shall come in the CLOUDS.)
Mat 24:31 And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, (The 7th Trumpet of Revelation. SEE Rev. 10:
7) and they shall gather together his Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (whether they died in
Old Testament Times or the New Testament Period or during the Tribulation. Praise God !! For .... In a moment, in the
twinkling of an eye, at the last Trump: for the (7th) Trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. I Corinthinians 15:52)
And so if you want to meet Him in the air, just receive Him today, and accept His SALVATION, receive His HOLY
SPIRIT, and pray that you make it through the Tribulation until His Coming. For one life will soon be past, and only
what's done for Jesus will last.
In His Service
David
I think the above was from 2004, but it remains intact IMO... and do overlook the salvation paragraph in the end as I many times put one in on many of my articles, and is not directed to anyone HERE, as this is a Christian discussion board.
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Post by mike on Dec 4, 2017 8:25:58 GMT -6
davidjayjordanwould you mind expounding on the 21 years of Jacobs trouble as I and likely many other have yet to understand Jacobs trouble as anything other than 7 yrs.
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 4, 2017 10:09:36 GMT -6
I never saw any place in the rules HERE, where we had to believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture...and seeing I want to stay within the rules..... can my different opinion be written down... or discussed.... or should I just avoid the subject totally as not to offend those that believe we get raptured at a different time frame. Its not paramount to my interpretations as at mid point of the Last SEVEN YEARS (before the Lord comes) we shall all find out anyway. Some might be disappointed, some might think they were left behind, some might wonder why all are still HERE, and some might be so glad they were prepared and obeyed the Lords End Time directions. Lots of possibilities... If it cant be discussed then I will avoid mentioning it in a direct topic, yet might elude to our involvment in the Great Tribulation and our TWO Christian Prophets (Witnesses) actions in the Great Tribulation, only if needed in a discussion .....of possibilities. GBY Onward Christian Soldirs Hello My brother, Welcome to the forum. It's so nice to have you. ;-) There are lots of different opinions about lots of subjects - some very bizarre. That's OK. It makes things interesting. Be prepared to have your views questioned and challenged, and also be encouraged that this is a great place where we share ideas and learn from each other. At the end of the day - I don't agree with anyone about everything. If two people agreed about everything - one of them wouldn't be necessary. The other thing about this forum is that's cool is that no one here - [nor any YouTube teacher or some lady with a shaky camera in her car] has all the pieces - no one has the monopoly on End Times.
A former pastor once said about the timing of the rapture - "If you push me into a corner [force me to take a position] I'm Pre-tribulation, but if it's not Pre-Tribulation, then I'm definitely Mid-Trib, andiif it's not Mid-Trib, then I'm positively Post Trib."  In other words, while many believe that scripture points to a Pre-Tribulation Harpazo, but there are several key things that are events which are explicitly stated that happen in/ during the tribulation - And if watchmen see any of these things - it would be very very significant and the word would spread in a matter of hours across the world - through social media and YouTube, FB, etc. etc. - if we see the Temple being literally/ physically constructed,
- OR a nuclear war, or a Ginormous Earthquake - like a 13 on a Richter scale of 1-10 [Something that causes massive tsunami's affecting millions of people,
- or Turkey attack Israel,
- A treaty/ alliance or Peace agreement between Israel and other nations - particularly those mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39,
- A great world leader emerge who claims to be the Messiah, or claims to bring peace,
- The mark of the beast implemented, microchips being forced,
- A One world currency,
- A massive comet hit the earth, etc, etc,
then tens of millions of people will change their views. ;-) We know from scripture and Daniel's timeline that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the middle of the 7 Years, and we have an exact day count, for the first half and an exact day count for the second half, so this is why many/ [Most ?? people - maybe most people on here- but I can't say percentages] people think that the rapture, is the catalyst - trigger event that lights the fuse- starts the chain of events which starts the Tribulation. Maybe the Rapture, then a delay - then the Gog of Magog War, Ezekiel 38 war.
If the above events occurred, it would likely mean that the tribulation had started, and if the rapture hadn't happened, then it would be easy to do a day count of 1260 days from "Nuclear Attack on Israel" or Iran launching Nuclear missile on US, or Major 14 pt Earthquake in Syria, - to the mid point of the Tribulation, and there would have to be a temple in place. ;-)
Blessings, - I look forward to hearing your perspective. Disciple4life.
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Post by mike on Dec 4, 2017 10:23:14 GMT -6
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 4, 2017 11:11:16 GMT -6
davidjayjordan would you mind expounding on the 21 years of Jacobs trouble as I and likely many other have yet to understand Jacobs trouble as anything other than 7 yrs. Jacobs trouble was with Laban. Jacob was a trickster, but learned humility and honesty after being with the greater trickster and liar.... Laban. Jacob became Israel, the person not the country, after wrestling with the angel for a blessing and a redemption from his evil father in law. Jacob learned for 21 years.. First seven years for Leah when Laban slipped Her into his tent when Jacob was drunk but did the deed to the wrong sister.. Then served agin for 7 whole years a shubah.... a week of SEVEN YEARS same as Daniels timeframes..for Rachel. Then another 7 years for the sheep he needed to support his wives and handmaidens, (***********) Again Laban tried to trick him but the Lord out tricked the trickster and Jacob got his rightfully earned sheep. Nevertheless tricky evil Laban was after him and even Esau who Jacob had tricked was after him until the humility and confession spared Jacobs life.. and he rightfully got the blessing and protection from the Lord. It took 21 years...... Jacobs Trouble... |
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 4, 2017 11:15:59 GMT -6
Hello My brother, Welcome to the forum. It's so nice to have you. ;-) There are lots of different opinions about lots of subjects - some very bizarre. That's OK. It makes things interesting. Be prepared to have your views questioned and challenged, and also be encouraged that this is a great place where we share ideas and learn from each other. At the end of the day - I don't agree with anyone about everything. If two people agreed about everything - one of them wouldn't be necessary. The other thing about this forum is that's cool is that no one here - [nor any YouTube teacher or some lady with a shaky camera in her car] has all the pieces - no one has the monopoly on End Times.
A former pastor once said about the timing of the rapture - "If you push me into a corner [force me to take a position] I'm Pre-tribulation, but if it's not Pre-Tribulation, then I'm definitely Mid-Trib, andiif it's not Mid-Trib, then I'm positively Post Trib." In other words, while many believe that scripture points to a Pre-Tribulation Harpazo, but there are several key things that are events which are explicitly stated that happen in/ during the tribulation - And if watchmen see any of these things - it would be very very significant and the word would spread in a matter of hours across the world - through social media and YouTube, FB, etc. etc. - if we see the Temple being literally/ physically constructed,
- OR a nuclear war, or a Ginormous Earthquake - like a 13 on a Richter scale of 1-10 [Something that causes massive tsunami's affecting millions of people,
- or Turkey attack Israel,
- A treaty/ alliance or Peace agreement between Israel and other nations - particularly those mentioned in Ezekiel 38/39,
- A great world leader emerge who claims to be the Messiah, or claims to bring peace,
- The mark of the beast implemented, microchips being forced,
- A One world currency,
- A massive comet hit the earth, etc, etc,
then tens of millions of people will change their views. ;-) We know from scripture and Daniel's timeline that the Abomination of Desolation happens in the middle of the 7 Years, and we have an exact day count, for the first half and an exact day count for the second half, so this is why many/ [Most ?? people - maybe most people on here- but I can't say percentages] people think that the rapture, is the catalyst - trigger event that lights the fuse- starts the chain of events which starts the Tribulation. Maybe the Rapture, then a delay - then the Gog of Magog War, Ezekiel 38 war.
If the above events occurred, it would likely mean that the tribulation had started, and if the rapture hadn't happened, then it would be easy to do a day count of 1260 days from "Nuclear Attack on Israel" or Iran launching Nuclear missile on US, or Major 14 pt Earthquake in Syria, - to the mid point of the Tribulation, and there would have to be a temple in place. ;-)
Blessings, - I look forward to hearing your perspective. Disciple4life.
Thanks Disciple will duly note that, but this board is honorable compared to my last one, where the evolutionists were nasty as hell, and deceitful and dishonest as hell. Here we are among brethren and have standards of decency and posting.
But yea, I would differ with you on the Rapture as that is an ending not a beginning. At that point we are no longer useful and are taken up and out.... no more usefulness for the Lord. As a Christian, as a missionary, I love the fight the battle, and being part of the Greatest FINALE ever composed and lived out. But we can easily discuss this possibility as brethren HEREIN GBY David
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 4, 2017 11:31:50 GMT -6
Hello Davidjayjordan,
Thanks for the post and your perspective.
I'm still learning so much from my fellow watchmen and women - and also about the forum. ;-)
** This last post - the reply from you - notice it looks like all of that in the light gray box was my post. Just click on edit, and then scroll down just below the gray box, and post /paste your reply there.
Then it will show my post, [other people's post] and then staggered, -your reply, so it's clear who's answering what to whom. ;-)
Davidjayjordan -- "Thanks Disciple will duly note that, but this board is honorable compared to my last one, where the evolutionists were nasty as hell, and deceitful and dishonest as hell. Here we are among brethren and have standards of decency and posting.
But yea, I would differ with you on the Rapture as that is an ending not a beginning. At that point we are no longer useful and are taken up and out.... no more usefulness for the Lord. As a Christian, as a missionary, I love the fight the battle, and being part of the Greatest FINALE ever composed and lived out.
But we can easily discuss this possibility as brethren HEREIN"
GBY
Davi
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Post by davidjayjordan on Dec 4, 2017 12:00:42 GMT -6
Yea, I noticed that, and did try to fix it, as I am a slow learner. It didnt seem to scroll down for me.
And different formats still confuse me.
My attachments were visible before and now readers have to CLICK on, and THEN OPEN...UGH...
YUP, there's a difference also from QUICK REPLY and a bigger better REPLY button.
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Post by disciple4life on Dec 4, 2017 15:14:42 GMT -6
Yea, I noticed that, and did try to fix it, as I am a slow learner. It didnt seem to scroll down for me. And different formats still confuse me. My attachments were visible before and now readers have to CLICK on, and THEN OPEN...UGH... YUP, there's a difference also from QUICK REPLY and a bigger better REPLY button. If you click the quote button - in the upper right, It will show that person's post in a box with a gray outline. Go down and type your post just below the box, - and just above the word "Preview" in the bottom left. Hope that helps.
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Post by rt on Dec 4, 2017 18:51:48 GMT -6
davidjayjordan would you mind expounding on the 21 years of Jacobs trouble as I and likely many other have yet to understand Jacobs trouble as anything other than 7 yrs. Jacobs trouble was with Laban. Jacob was a trickster, but learned humility and honesty after being with the greater trickster and liar.... Laban. Jacob became Israel, the person not the country, after wrestling with the angel for a blessing and a redemption from his evil father in law. Jacob learned for 21 years.. First seven years for Leah when Laban slipped Her into his tent when Jacob was drunk but did the deed to the wrong sister.. Then served agin for 7 whole years a shubah.... a week of SEVEN YEARS same as Daniels timeframes..for Rachel. Then another 7 years for the sheep he needed to support his wives and handmaidens, (***********) Again Laban tried to trick him but the Lord out tricked the trickster and Jacob got his rightfully earned sheep. Nevertheless tricky evil Laban was after him and even Esau who Jacob had tricked was after him until the humility and confession spared Jacobs life.. and he rightfully got the blessing and protection from the Lord. It took 21 years...... Jacobs Trouble... As some have pointed out, you should be prepared to hear opposition.... I have not ever heard this interpretation concerning "Jacob's trouble" You claim that you get 21 years for the time frame based on how long it took Jacob to finally land Laban's daughter Rachel as his wife. When I look at the passage that talks about Jacob's trouble, I see that the two have no connection: In this case "Jacob" is not speaking about the individual, who labored 21 years under Laban, this passage speaks about Jacob (Israel) the nation. Verse 4 tells us that the words of the prophet concern Israel and Judah. I see no connection between this prophetic passage and those that talk about Jacob marrying Rachel. You ascribe 21 years to the duration of this time of "distress" because you see Jacob's having to wait to get to marry Rachel as his time of trouble, though the scripture never calls it that. If you read the passages (Genesis 29-30) that tell the story about Jacob laboring under Laban for Rachel, you see nothing that describes it as a time of trouble for him. Yes Laban deceived Jacob, but Jacob willingly served Laban, because of his love for Rachel. It wasn't a time of trouble for him. The time of trouble is described earlier by Jeremiah here: The prophet goes on to talk about Israel's rebellion and how they adulterated themselves with foreign God's. In chapter 3 God invites them to repent and tells them how He will respond when they do:
The book then goes on to talk about God's Judgement on faithless Israel/ Judah. Remember this is in the context of the Babylonian invasion, and the nation being taken into captivity. This was clearly a time of trouble for Israel. A time of trouble that lasted 70 years. This same time of trouble that Daniel the prophet spoke of, the same time of trouble that the 70 weeks prophecy given to Daniel was about. Remember that the prophecy concerning the 70 weeks was in response to Daniel's prayer for Israel and His people. Daniel recognized that the prophet Jeremiah had spoken of this time of distress for Israel and that it would last 70 years because they failed to keep the land Sabbaths for 490 years (Jer 25:11 and 2 Chron 36: 19-21). Jacob's trouble has more to do with the 70 weeks prophecy than it does with 21 years of Jacob waiting to marry Rachel. In fact I would gander to say that the time of Jacob's trouble actually began when they went into captivity in Babylon, when the Glory of the Lord was taken fro the temple and has continued until today and will continue until the 70 weeks prophecy is fulfilled and the Glory of the Lord returns to the temple as described by the prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 43:4,5). This time of trouble is marked by God's recurring chastisement to bring the nation of Israel to repentance. When as Daniel describes they will suffer under the rule of gentile nations- Babylon, Medo/ Persia, Greece, Rome and the ten toes. The nation of Israel went into physical captivity and has remained spiritually captives to this day, but one day after she who is in labor has borne a child (Rev 12) they will return and be restored to their former state. This is what the whole purpose for the 70 weeks prophecy is. The final week has yet to be played out and in that week Israel will repent and the outcome will be their restoration. I see no correlation to 21 years at all, now perhaps you would care to elaborate as to why you believe there is some kind of correlation other than just making the claim that you believe there is one, can you provide some other kind of scriptural support for this idea? |
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