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Post by stormyknight on Sept 6, 2019 8:09:01 GMT -6
Natalie , I'm thinking that the GWT judgement will be just like a court proceeding. And after watching the videos that bondservant provided about the Epistograph scroll, I am even more convinced of this. God does everything legal and above board. So in the GWT judgement everyone will get their chance to declare whether they are guilty or not guilty. We have already made our declaration of guilt and found forgiveness in Christ Jesus as He has already paid our sentence. Not only that but because we have made our choice and have endeavored to grow in the Holy Spirit, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?..." 1 Cor. 6:3 and John saw us, "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed." Rev. 20:4. (I know this strays from the topic of having a choice, but I say it to give us hope as I sense it waning.) But, suffice it to say, there will be those who adamantly state their innocence with pride and arrogance. If not convinced of their guilt, they will be ushered out the gate, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out." Luke 13:28 Imagine their surprise when they see the patriarchs! But as this thread is about the restoration of all things, remember what God said when He created this world? "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Gen. 1:31, and then in Rev. 21:5,"And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” and "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” And then, and most importantly, "No longer will there be anything accursed," Rev. 22:3. There will be no more evil of any kind. Doesn't that imply that there will not be anyone in eternal torment?
Interesting thoughts. I will take time to think on it some more. About this last part - it probably depends on if you hold to eternal torment or to conditionalism. If it's a second death and then they perish (destruction, cease to exist) then, yes no one is left in eternal torment. But it still shows that not everyone ends up in the kingdom/heaven. Some go to the lake of fire and the second death. I always have to look up those 'isms, but yes, conditionalism goes back all the way to the two trees in the Garden. One is the tree of (Eternal)life, the other is the tree of the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of evil. It is well known among behavioral scientists that if you can think something, you are quite able to do it and our propensity in this world(6000 years) is toward evil, or sinning, missing the mark, etc. The wages, of course, is death. Not the death that happens to every living creature on Earth, that's a given because we wear out, but the second death. Final destruction, removal from existence. It clearly states in Rev. 21:8 that some will suffer this fate. Is there a verse or verses somewhere that states that everyone will end up in Heaven? I mean, I'm sure our Heavenly Father would like everyone to be in His Kingdom, but, it's clear to me that that is not going to happen.
Another thing that I think has been misconstrued down through the ages is the eternal "torment" thing. I'm thinking it should be eternal "life" and eternal "death". period. I'll have to do some studying on this, but I'm thinking the "torment" or "punishment" worked it's way in to mainstream Christianity to scare the masses into going to church.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 6, 2019 9:03:13 GMT -6
Gary did a good article on conditionalism. I don't know if it's right, but it makes the most sense to me.
Yes, eternal life vs perish. John 3:16
This whole thread was started trying to show that everyone is saved in the end. Some of us are trying to show that the Bible does not teach that. I have yet to be shown a verse that says anything like that.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 6, 2019 9:59:44 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts. I will take time to think on it some more. About this last part - it probably depends on if you hold to eternal torment or to conditionalism. If it's a second death and then they perish (destruction, cease to exist) then, yes no one is left in eternal torment. But it still shows that not everyone ends up in the kingdom/heaven. Some go to the lake of fire and the second death. I always have to look up those 'isms, but yes, conditionalism goes back all the way to the two trees in the Garden. One is the tree of (Eternal)life, the other is the tree of the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of evil. It is well known among behavioral scientists that if you can think something, you are quite able to do it and our propensity in this world(6000 years) is toward evil, or sinning, missing the mark, etc. The wages, of course, is death. Not the death that happens to every living creature on Earth, that's a given because we wear out, but the second death. Final destruction, removal from existence. It clearly states in Rev. 21:8 that some will suffer this fate. Is there a verse or verses somewhere that states that everyone will end up in Heaven? I mean, I'm sure our Heavenly Father would like everyone to be in His Kingdom, but, it's clear to me that that is not going to happen.
Another thing that I think has been misconstrued down through the ages is the eternal "torment" thing. I'm thinking it should be eternal "life" and eternal "death". period. I'll have to do some studying on this, but I'm thinking the "torment" or "punishment" worked it's way in to mainstream Christianity to scare the masses into going to church.
Going to ask questions with what I have bolded above. I have many things to say in this thread and questions being posed and simply have not had time to sit down and type it all out. It is written out and is a bit lengthy, however as I do not want to say things from my own vanity or anything of that nature and want to answer in ways to get people to thinks deep and search things out. Not to prove who is right or wrong or entirely understand and view any of this in absolutes. I have bolded what I am going to comment on here in regards to your statements above. 1. Death does currently happen to every living creature on earth because we do wear out, but that was not always the case. In Genesis it clearly references how long people used to live for shortly after the fall. Some lived to be almost a thousand years old and this length of life shortened as more time spanned after Adam and Eve. The length of life seemed to drastically change after the flood. There are a lot of theories going around as to why that is so I will not get into that here. But I will pose a question in regards to the second death, death is a negative thing as is the grave (hades), so if death is "killed" which is a double negative, how can that be another negative in being permanent death? 1 = death
-1 = 2nd death
1 - (-1) = --1 <<<< Not mathematically possible. Two negatives always cancel eachother out or flip to create a positive. 1 minus a -1 will always just equal 1, a positive number or outcome. 1 - (-1) = 1For us to live, our cells have to basically die over and over again to create NEW cells. They sacrifice themselves on a continual basis to allow life to continue on. And back to Revelation 22:3 in stating "No longer will there be anything accursed," (or as some translations states no more curse or any curse) wouldn't eternal death or annihilation be an eternal curse? It's definitely not a blessing.And to pose some information to think about in regards to no chance of salvation after death and this life being our only chance, later in Revelation 22 seems to paint a different picture: 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.... 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.These verses are after the Lake of fire in chapter 21, AFTER this happens:5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
These folks went into the lake of fire and if adhering to the annihilation or conditionalism theories, where do the people from chapter 22 verse 15 come from? 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying...."
This is the end of Chapter 21 into 22:
22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
If we say this life is our only chance and that's it and the GWT judgement is final , than what does "its gates will never be closed" The city is the new jerusalem, the kingdom of God or heaven and this says it's gates will never close, but we are taught that they do close... again just some things to think on.
2. To add to the church making eternal torment to get people to come to church, this was also done to keep people from reading or owning the bible themselves and scaring them into paying the mandated church tithes. If you didn't, this is why people were burned at the stake, to emphasize the torment of a fiery hell. Sometimes I don't see this too differently now, believe the gospel of avoiding hell, go to church, pay tithing and be very guilt tripped into paying as I have witnessed pastors myself do. Get the offering plates and then hand them back for a second round to get more. What a bunch of jerks. There is nothing new under the sun and nothing ever changes.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 6, 2019 12:33:26 GMT -6
Gary did a good article on conditionalism. I don't know if it's right, but it makes the most sense to me. Yes, eternal life vs perish. John 3:16 This whole thread was started trying to show that everyone is saved in the end. Some of us are trying to show that the Bible does not teach that. I have yet to be shown a verse that says anything like that. You have been shown multiple verses. There are 20+ pages of this entire thread and dozens of links, books, studies, videos, and even ministries for additional research and information. But for simplicity's sake, here is a verse that imho cannot be anymore blunt or straightforward: 10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. There are many others besides this one, but when referenced and even this verse quoted, they are said as being taken out of context. So I am confused as to your above statement about not being shown any verses because when they are given, they are being taken out of context.... Here is a list of bible verses to look up and research on what they are stating: Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Romans 5:6
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Luke 23:34
Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do”.
John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world (kosmos).
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world (kosmos).
Luke 19:9-10
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 12:32-33 (NIV)
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23a
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order…
1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth – in Him.
Isaiah 25:7-8
7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
Isaiah 45:22
Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Psalm 98:1-3
1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things; His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory. 2 The LORD has made known His salvation; His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations. 3 He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel; All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psalm 22:27-29
27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s, And He rules over the nations. 29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
Romans 5:8, 10
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Psalm 66:3-4
3 Say to God, “How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. 4 All the earth shall worship You And sing praises to You; They shall sing praises to Your name.” Selah.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son), “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Hebrews 10:14-17
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those (His enemies) who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them (with His enemies) after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their (His enemies’) hearts, and in their (His enemies’) minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their (His enemies’) sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Matthew 5:43-44
43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.
Isaiah 45:25
In the LORD all the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.
Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many (all) were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many (all) will be made righteous.
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Isaiah 46:12-13
12 Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness: 13 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger. And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israel My glory.
Malachi 3:2-3
2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.
Isaiah 45:23-25
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory’.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Revelation 21:1-6
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away”. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new”. And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful”. 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End…” |
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 6, 2019 15:25:21 GMT -6
cwood85, don't forget John is sort of 'outside of time' at this point, so trying to fit things in some sort of chronological order is not going to work. You see in Rev. 22:14a, "Blessed are those who wash their robes(us being led by the Holy Spirit), so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." and then, "Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." But, go back one verse, "“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done." and Jesus hasn't even gotten here yet. But then go back one chapter and John is being shown a new Heaven and New Earth. He is just stating WE are blessed and THEY are cursed. Rev. 21 comes later as "for the former things have passed away.” Eventually, Micah 4:1 happens, "For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." And Mark 13:31, Matt. 24:35, Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away." 2 Peter 3:12, "as you anticipate and hasten the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will be dissolved by fire and the elements will melt in the heat." I think it's safe to say there will be no biologic organisms left alive. Which leaves only God, Jesus Christ, the angels and all of humanity that have chosen to be there. I don't know about the angels, but God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and all of the rest will have the same Holy Spirit dwelling within. We will all be of one Spirit. Have you ever had that feeling that you just couldn't stop grinning because you were so happy?
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Post by Concerned Guest on Sept 16, 2019 8:52:09 GMT -6
I have followed this along and was very confused in this debate. This video helped clear some things. Thank you
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 16, 2019 15:28:35 GMT -6
This thread and the heart & meat of it is NOT Calvinism. Just saying that for the record. The subjects/topics of the core of this thread begin on page one and not in the middle of the summer of 2019. I have not watched this video above and will when I have time, but if it is about Calvinism, and warning of it, ok, but how does it fit the debate here, I ask.
If it is labeling the essence of this thread as a form of calvinism, then I disagree and say this video rightfully belongs in a thread called the dangers of Calvinism.
Also, notice the case laid out word by word by the original author. To bring a link here is rather frustrating for the reader, like me, who can not use audio. I would rather see laid out in typed dialog concerning the great number of topics discussed within this thread. This way I can see and read the debate.
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Post by Natalie on Sept 16, 2019 16:25:23 GMT -6
I think the topic has more in common with Calvinism than you realize.
I will watch the video and see how it ties in to the topic.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 16, 2019 18:32:24 GMT -6
Natalie , which topic? I mean that sincerely. If its the free will topic, this thread addressed that earlier on, way better than I tried to respond to mike just a few pages back. sk's point of view on the free will was built upon a series of scripture (the list was daunting) concerning the character of Who God is. The point of view was also based upon a series of explanations of the term ages, eternity, forever, etc. This was also based on some historical view points of the early churches. This includes the infamous eternal torment teachings. It just so happens that I "see" more examples of the "will" debate answered throughout the Kingdom of God thread, especially when you think about the implications when God names people.. What's in a name? was that section of intrigue to me the most.... I will admit that I answered off the cuff to mike to start, as cwood85 , went out of town. Then, we have the biggest part of our year in September so I was not able to devote time to answer mike AGAIN, who seems to not think I am answering him, or understanding his question. I so desperately want to answer his question, but it seems I keep not understanding what he is asking or saying. I can't sit down prayerfully to do so because of my current time constraint. I did have time to answer today because I will defend this thread against those who say any part of it is an -ism of some kind. This thread is about getting deep into the understanding of who God is and His plan(s) He has had, currently has going on, and will have.. void of any denominational constraints or labels.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 16, 2019 18:35:09 GMT -6
I think the topic has more in common with Calvinism than you realize. I will watch the video and see how it ties in to the topic. I really disagree with this thread or topic being similar to Calvinism or the topic of restoration/reconciliation from any sort of theology or research. John Calvin had people hung for basically not agreeing with him. People over the last couple thousand years have been brutally murdered and tortured for speaking of the salvation for all. This isn’t a new “worldly” view or hippy new age take of the gospel. It has records going back as early as 115 AD and is what was commonly taught. Eastern Orthodox still teaches it and for the most part always have. They did not give in to the teachings of eternal torment in Hell and in certain regions paid dearly for it. This was a western theology that started in Europe, eventually followed to the states (although was condoned in the beginning and part of why the pilgrims fled) and ironically seemed to coincidence as “truth” around the time when church and government became tied together at the hip in Europe and even more so after Dante’s inferno. Tithing used to be a tax, not a choice and so was going to church. If you didn’t you do either you were accused of being a witch or devil worshiper and killed. The information is out there for anyone to look up, it takes time and an open mind however and I realize that isn’t easy for a lot of people. It isn’t for me and there have been many many nights of me trying to refute restoration just in case I am missing something and trying to look at it as openly and hopefully as honestly as I can. This thread isn’t kept going to prove a point. I certainly cannot make someone believe anything. But I cannot ignore what fills my heart with more joy, hope and love more than I am able to express. Maybe even more than that is the freedom and rest it has laid on my soul. Why? Because it has shown me that no matter what happens in this life, no matter how much I or anyone screws up, God has it handled and there is no uncertainty or miss understanding that He doesn’t or can’t. I don’t have to rely on my sinful and limited understanding to make sure I haven’t screwed up my salvation or forsaken my soul. It has taught and opened me up to a deeper level of forgiveness that I never knew before. My marriage, parenting, family and friendships are met with a softer heart and as time goes on more love and compassion. |
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Post by Natalie on Sept 16, 2019 18:48:09 GMT -6
At this point, I am stepping away from this thread. I do not see things as you two do, and I do not see the Bible teaching what this thread is trying to teach.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 16, 2019 19:36:04 GMT -6
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Post by cwood85 on Jan 13, 2020 10:17:44 GMT -6
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Post by Natalie on Jan 13, 2020 13:22:44 GMT -6
Here's a couple of quotes from Jesus on hell:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt 10:28)
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire." (Mark 9:43)
I agree that a person could show that the Bible does not teach eternal torment. Man can interpret it that way because the fire is unquenchable, the effects eternal.
If there is no hell, no punishment for sin, then why not just live how we want? Sin with reckless abandon because everyone gets in.
Because the Bible says otherwise. Jesus died because we can't pay the debt ourselves...during this life or the next. There is a hell; Jesus said so. There is judgement; there is punishment or reward - death or life.
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Post by mike on Jan 14, 2020 6:02:22 GMT -6
dear sister cwood85 - we have debated this topic and I do not wish to do so again. Though I cannot read the article you posted (they want me to pay for it) it seems Natalie has and replied. "Ironically" this teaching showed on my YouTube feed today. I share it not to argue but to present pieces to the Universalism view I believe are missing, questions posed that the view does not address. Up to you to listen (or not)  |
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Not mathematically possible. Two negatives always cancel eachother out or flip to create a positive. 1 minus a -1 will always just equal 1, a positive number or outcome. 1 - (-1) = 1
