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Post by cwood85 on Aug 30, 2019 13:25:53 GMT -6
How so, cwood85 ? Did not satan already set the precedent, being the pinnacle of beauty and wisdom, yet he still chose destruction? I mean, that is exactly what satan tried to do, supersede God with his vanity and pride. I don't think that is possible, God being: the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, etc. One cannot question God's Holy Spirit. I think that is why it is unpardonable. How do you feel if someone questions your spirit? Only you know your mind, how can someone question that? The same for God only multiplied by Infinity!
In my mind, it is important that in God's Kingdom that we choose salvation so that His Kingdom is only made up of those who want/choose to be there. He's not going to force anyone to do anything.(one might question that in light of 'well, why did he do x or y so His people would comply." I would say, if your kid tries to touch a hot stove you might smack their hand.) It is important that we have the choice. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable. The simplicity of this is profound to me. All creation waits in eager longing for what? The all encompassing love of God's Kingdom. The revealing of the Children of God. Those who chose to be there.
, that is what pastors for many years have taught about Satan and what He did when the bible is talking about the King of Tyre and Nebuchadnezzar and even names them in both scriptures of Ezekiel and Isaiah. THEY (the kings) let their pride get the best of them and God knocked their butts back to reality. The reference to "you were there in the beginning in the garden of Eden", is talking about the pride and vanity of humans being there from the very start because that is what caused us to sin in the first place, thinking and being deceived into believing we could be like and at Gods level. This is not something I am going to debate however and would suggest some books on studying Hebrew and Aramaic literacy and poetry in writing/literature of the scriptures. VERY eye opening and informative. "I would say, if your kid tries to touch a hot stove you might smack their hand.) It is important that we have the choice. Says who and why? Just trying to further understand this is all, not accusing or anything. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable."
Please use scripture for this last sentance because I don't know any that reference this and would like to study it more. I am sorry, but to me this is a contradiction. On one hand, we humans will keep our children from danger and even reprimand them for putting themselves in danger, but God in his infinite wisdom doesn't do the same to give us finite humans choice?!? Please also back up your last sentence that I quoted with scriptures. ________________________________________ "Hey Billy, don't cross the busy road because you could get hit by a car. We are your parents and we are telling you to not cross the road." Billy ignores his parents warning and tries to cross the road. Parents gets more stern with Billy in concern of his safety and well being. As soon as his parents stop watching, he tries again not believing his parents warnings or taking them seriously. Billy isn't fully aware and cannot completely comprehend the extreme danger of a car hitting him and causing such blunt force trauma, that it will most likely kill him. He just wants to get to the other side of the road and that is all he is thinking about. What he wants. This happens several more times and Billy's parents are getting worn out and frankly a bit fed up with their stubborn and disobedient child. "Alright Billy, this is your last chance, if you try to cross that road again, we are not going to stop you. You have been given more than enough warnings, and we have now several times had to pull you away from the road and you just keep going back! So if you try to cross the road again, we are not going to stop you. We are going to give you the opportunity to make the choice for yourself on what is best for you. We wouldn't be good parents if we didn't let you decide this for yourself." Billy turns around looking at the colorful park across the street he had been longing to play at all morning and then turns to look at his parents who are just sitting and chatting at a park bench. Billy decides to give it a go and risk crossing the road. He disobeys his parents initial warnings and thinks he has a pretty good chance at dodging the cars. Billy didn't factor in the brush however in the medan and comes out from behind it after crossing the first lane and a driver does not see him until it's too late. Billy was hit and instantly killed. The driver gets out of the car mortified and sick with grief upon hitting and killing this boy. He turns and see's a couple by a bench wailing and sobbing across the road. "Is this your son?!?" The driver calls out. "Yes! We tried and tried to warn him and stop him but he just wouldn't listen to us!" "What?!?" replied the distraught driver, "you LET him cross and didn't stop him! You gave up and let him walk into harms way?!?" "Yes, we did everything we could but didn't want to force him to do something he did not and make him miserable, so we let him choose because he isn't a robot and we didn't want him to feel that way. We wanted our son to learn a valuable lesson on his own." But Billy never learned the lesson, because Billy was DEAD!!! Were Billy's parents being just and sovereign? No! They were being HUGE jerks! This in our society would be considered neglect and extreme child abuse and endangerment. Even manslaughter to a degree and Billy's parents would be in prison. So what would good and loving parents really do? Maybe give him a pop on his behind if he really kept at it or ground him and tell him if he tries to do that again, they will not go to the park to play in a little bit like they had told him they would and he just needed to listen and be patient. He needed to rest and trust that his parents knew best for him and loved him. ________________________________________ When I read some of the statements here, this is what I think of at least in real world scenarios. Sorry if they are vivid, my mind is a bit vivid and often scattered lol. |
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Post by venge on Aug 30, 2019 15:45:06 GMT -6
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 30, 2019 17:32:21 GMT -6
What is going on here Venge??!!!?? 🤣🤣😂😆🤪😅 |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 30, 2019 19:05:34 GMT -6
yeah venge, this odd comment tells me you are not really reading the context of the conversation going on here in this thread, which is a 2 year old thread. The recent conversations that have come about are rooted in the things that have been talked about pages and pages ago, and the whole lucifer/satan debate is not the context of what is being discussed here. So I take it you just thru that in because of the mention of satan, et al. So be it. Why did you even post what you did? |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 30, 2019 19:22:49 GMT -6
I'm on my phone atm. But I will respond, cwood85. Please be patient. |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 30, 2019 22:23:37 GMT -6
I will tackle the two scenarios first. The first one with the child touching the hot stove. God told Israel that if they followed Him He would bless them, but if they didn't, He would curse them, smack their hand. And He did. Numerous times. I don't think I need to list references for that. But the second scenario is different. It's like asking why does God allow innocent children to suffer and die of debilitating diseases? Well, those debilitating diseases are a result of Mankind taking on the knowledge of good and evil. The system is broke. We've messed it up and brought that suffering on our children. But that suffering does not play favorites. It happens to the just and unjust alike. So in this case, if God is the parents of Billy, Billy's death was brought on by the fact that a busy street was built next to playground, or vice versa. It's a result of many choices. Bad choices. It wasn't the parents fault, but they warned Billy of the danger. The temptation was too great for Billy. He didn't believe his parents (God) and so was not prone to overcome the temptation.
The destruction of the wicked is a common theme throughout scripture. Mal.4:1, Ezek. 21:31-32, Job 31:3, Job 8:13, Psalm 37:38, and of course, Rev. 20:15
Destruction: the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
the condition of being destroyed; demolition; annihilation.
Annihilate: to reduce to utter ruin or nonexistence; destroy utterly
It is important that we have the choice. Says who and why? Just trying to further understand this is all, not accusing or anything. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable." Please use scripture for this last sentence because I don't know any that reference this and would like to study it more. Read more: board.unsealed.org/post/new/1174#ixzz5y9295ZVN
I'm not exactly sure, but I think Ezek. 21:32 is where I got that the wicked will not be remembered. I speculated about God keeping them and anyone connected to them from misery, but it seems just and merciful to me that God would do that. Can you imagine how heartbroken you would be if you were to remember someone, perhaps a loved one, that chose death? I really believe the wicked will be few, but there have been billions on this Earth, so the number is still sure to be quite high. I hope I am wrong and it is quite low.
Romans 10:9 states: "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." That is definitely a choice! And it is an important choice, because if we don't choose to confess and believe, we will not be saved. The thing is, not everyone will "get it", seeing they won't see, hearing they won't hear. This is the very mystery of the Kingdom that we are given to understand and others are not.
Luke 8:9-10 "Then His disciples asked Him what this parable meant. He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, ‘Though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.’" This is the veil that blinds their eyes. Does this negate freewill? No, why would it? They will be given the chance to choose in the Great White Throne judgement. If they choose wisely, would not their names be found in the Book of Life? How do I know they will be given the chance to choose? I don't, but it seems logical.
So, WHY is it important that we have a choice? I kind of like this answer given by Hugo Garcia at the website Quora to the question "What are the benefits of having the freedom of choice and how are they important?" Hugo writes: Freedom of Choice is not important as it brings us some kind of benefit. It’s important because it is only then that we achieve our fulfillment as Human Beings.
The Human Being stands apart from other animals not because of emotions or reasoning, but because of a superior capacity of making decisions. We are able to have a wider understanding of different possibilities.
When we make a choice we use different methods and capacities, some more emotional and others more rational, to understand the advantages that can be moral or pragmatic, selfish or altruistic, of each considered possibility.
The choices we make through life, determine who we are as individuals. When we stop to understand the differences between someone like Martin Luther King Jr. and someone like Adolph Hitler, the fundamental difference is the choices they have made.
Sure we may discuss how their previous experiences build who they become, but in the end, you always have the choice to decide who you are.
If one is not given that choice, to be great or to be a vicious coward, he is neither. He is only a shadow of himself.
To go a little bit further, being a grown-up means to be responsible for your own actions. When we assume the responsibilities for our actions, instead of hiding from them or expecting someone else to solve them, that is when we can call ourselves grown-ups.
Also, to become a full citizen, one must have the freedom to decide on the future of his country or region, by the power of the vote.
All of this gathered, giving someone freedom to choose is recognizing dignity as Human, and allowing them to achieve their full potential.
I bolded the last part. This, to me, says that by giving us a choice, God will have our full and undivided attention. And we will be able to achieve our full potential, what ever that may be. If we are forced into the Kingdom, resentment or anger or contempt will make it's way into our hearts. I realize this is not a scripture reference, but, I did make use of the search window in Bible Hub to find something related to why a choice is important and came up with this: "I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. So choose life, so that you and your descendants may live, and that you may love the LORD your God, obey Him, and hold fast to Him. For He is your life, and He will prolong your life in the land that the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” Duet. 30:19-20
I think we are wise enough to know that not having a choice makes life insufferable as so many evil tyrants in history have proven.
I hope this clarifies my position, c.
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Post by venge on Aug 31, 2019 5:55:07 GMT -6
yeah venge, this odd comment tells me you are not really reading the context of the conversation going on here in this thread, which is a 2 year old thread. The recent conversations that have come about are rooted in the things that have been talked about pages and pages ago, and the whole lucifer/satan debate is not the context of what is being discussed here. So I take it you just thru that in because of the mention of satan, et al. So be it. Why did you even post what you did? I have been reading. Just felt like posting a link cause it came up. Please continue with the restoration... Stormy: Was that reference in Ezekiel something like, they will be like a dream as if never existed or happened? I vaguely remember it. |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 31, 2019 19:45:32 GMT -6
yeah venge , this odd comment tells me you are not really reading the context of the conversation going on here in this thread, which is a 2 year old thread. The recent conversations that have come about are rooted in the things that have been talked about pages and pages ago, and the whole lucifer/satan debate is not the context of what is being discussed here. So I take it you just thru that in because of the mention of satan, et al. So be it. Why did you even post what you did? I have been reading. Just felt like posting a link cause it came up. Please continue with the restoration... Stormy: Was that reference in Ezekiel something like, they will be like a dream as if never existed or happened? I vaguely remember it. , I was thinking it was in the latter part of the OT, and after rereading a bit, I'm inclined to think it was the end of chapter 3 and on into chapter 4 of Malachi. referring to the day when God will burn the wicked like stubble. But I can't find the phrasing that I have stuck in my head. Something about "the remembrance of them will be no more" or "there will be no more remembrance of them", but those phrases don't bring up anything like what I was posting. So I don't know, maybe I'm all wet. |
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Post by venge on Sept 1, 2019 7:48:57 GMT -6
I have been reading. Just felt like posting a link cause it came up. Please continue with the restoration... Stormy: Was that reference in Ezekiel something like, they will be like a dream as if never existed or happened? I vaguely remember it. , I was thinking it was in the latter part of the OT, and after rereading a bit, I'm inclined to think it was the end of chapter 3 and on into chapter 4 of Malachi. referring to the day when God will burn the wicked like stubble. But I can't find the phrasing that I have stuck in my head. Something about "the remembrance of them will be no more" or "there will be no more remembrance of them", but those phrases don't bring up anything like what I was posting. So I don't know, maybe I'm all wet. ?? |
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Post by Natalie on Sept 1, 2019 17:31:14 GMT -6
stormy said: They will be given the chance to choose in the Great White Throne judgement. If they choose wisely, would not their names be found in the Book of Life? How do I know they will be given the chance to choose? I don't, but it seems logical.
This is what we have been trying to figure out. Is there a verse or verses that says they will get a choice at judgment?
Heb 9:27 says that man is appointed to die once, and after that judgment. What is judgment? from merriam-webster.com synonyms are finding, holding, ruling, sentence. Definitions that fit our context " a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion" "a formal decision given by a court"
What does Revelation say? "The dead were judged by what were written in the books, according to what they had done." (20:12) It doesn't sound like they were giving a defense or allowed a change of mind. They were judged by the things done while they were living. They were sentenced, a ruling was made. I do think that if OT saints are judged at this time, then yes, their names are in the book of life. What is written in the books would reflect that they lived a life of faith and righteousness.
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Post by fitz on Sept 2, 2019 6:14:11 GMT -6
The Great White Throne judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:7) and is for unbelievers only (Rev. 20:11-12). I believe the OT saints are raised @ the 2nd coming for Sheep & Goats judgement and are the ones on the right along with the resurrected trib saints/martyrs and living trib saints.
Everyone @ the Great White throne judgement experiences the 2nd death. There are none saved at this point.
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 3, 2019 15:23:02 GMT -6
The Great White Throne judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:7) and is for unbelievers only (Rev. 20:11-12). I believe the OT saints are raised @ the 2nd coming for Sheep & Goats judgement and are the ones on the right along with the resurrected trib saints/martyrs and living trib saints. Everyone @ the Great White throne judgement experiences the 2nd death. There are none saved at this point.Whoa, now. What about Romans 2:14? This is just Gentiles, not the church. People who do not have the Law. There are some pretty saintly Gentiles out there who have never heard of Jesus Christ. Do they get the second death? The Great White Throne judgement is just that, a judgement. If they all get thrown into the fire, then why judge them? |
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Post by fitz on Sept 3, 2019 18:53:53 GMT -6
The Great White Throne judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium (Rev. 20:7) and is for unbelievers only (Rev. 20:11-12). I believe the OT saints are raised @ the 2nd coming for Sheep & Goats judgement and are the ones on the right along with the resurrected trib saints/martyrs and living trib saints. Everyone @ the Great White throne judgement experiences the 2nd death. There are none saved at this point.Whoa, now. What about Romans 2:14? This is just Gentiles, not the church. People who do not have the Law. There are some pretty saintly Gentiles out there who have never heard of Jesus Christ. Do they get the second death? The Great White Throne judgement is just that, a judgement. If they all get thrown into the fire, then why judge them? Yes, we should account for these souls...as stated above, I believe the GWTJ is when all the non-believing dead are raised and judged with any who rebelled during the 1000 years (joins with Satan when he is released from the pit). However, It's always been my contention that if God intends to save some, whom He deems to be righteous, despite their ignorance of Jesus, then I believe He will raise these also @ His 2nd coming for the Sheep and Goats judgement. Here is where I think the OT saints are raised along with any other dead person that God may deem worthy to enter the kingdom. The sheep , on the right, get their reward at this time. But on the left are only living persons who are destined for everlasting punishment. The other wicked dead are not raised for this event, but wait until the 1000 years are up. Maybe it's these who say... "37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Edit: and after sleeping on it...one more thing I think I should add, and I think it brings us right back to the subject of the entire thread] You referenced Romans 2:14, but I think Paul is citing particular instances where Gentiles by nature do what is right, but I don't think He is implying they will be saved because of a few righteous acts. Using the NLT here because it is very clear in the paraphrase... 14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. (emphasis mine) Thing is, IF it were to happen, I'd think it quite rare, because... 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. and 23 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; God's standard is perfection. Who can achieve it? Only Jesus did, and our only way is through His blood. Not gonna say He won't save a few. He is sovereign, and full of mercy and grace. |
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Post by stormyknight on Sept 5, 2019 13:28:44 GMT -6
stormy said: They will be given the chance to choose in the Great White Throne judgement. If they choose wisely, would not their names be found in the Book of Life? How do I know they will be given the chance to choose? I don't, but it seems logical. This is what we have been trying to figure out. Is there a verse or verses that says they will get a choice at judgment? Heb 9:27 says that man is appointed to die once, and after that judgment. What is judgment? from merriam-webster.com synonyms are finding, holding, ruling, sentence. Definitions that fit our context " a formal utterance of an authoritative opinion" "a formal decision given by a court" What does Revelation say? "The dead were judged by what were written in the books, according to what they had done." (20:12) It doesn't sound like they were giving a defense or allowed a change of mind. They were judged by the things done while they were living. They were sentenced, a ruling was made. I do think that if OT saints are judged at this time, then yes, their names are in the book of life. What is written in the books would reflect that they lived a life of faith and righteousness. Natalie, I'm thinking that the GWT judgement will be just like a court proceeding. And after watching the videos that bondservant provided about the Epistograph scroll, I am even more convinced of this. God does everything legal and above board. So in the GWT judgement everyone will get their chance to declare whether they are guilty or not guilty. We have already made our declaration of guilt and found forgiveness in Christ Jesus as He has already paid our sentence. Not only that but because we have made our choice and have endeavored to grow in the Holy Spirit, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?..." 1 Cor. 6:3 and John saw us, "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed." Rev. 20:4. (I know this strays from the topic of having a choice, but I say it to give us hope as I sense it waning.) But, suffice it to say, there will be those who adamantly state their innocence with pride and arrogance. If not convinced of their guilt, they will be ushered out the gate, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out." Luke 13:28 Imagine their surprise when they see the patriarchs! But as this thread is about the restoration of all things, remember what God said when He created this world? "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Gen. 1:31, and then in Rev. 21:5,"And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” and "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” And then, and most importantly, "No longer will there be anything accursed," Rev. 22:3. There will be no more evil of any kind. Doesn't that imply that there will not be anyone in eternal torment?
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Post by Natalie on Sept 5, 2019 16:31:31 GMT -6
Natalie , I'm thinking that the GWT judgement will be just like a court proceeding. And after watching the videos that bondservant provided about the Epistograph scroll, I am even more convinced of this. God does everything legal and above board. So in the GWT judgement everyone will get their chance to declare whether they are guilty or not guilty. We have already made our declaration of guilt and found forgiveness in Christ Jesus as He has already paid our sentence. Not only that but because we have made our choice and have endeavored to grow in the Holy Spirit, "Do you not know that we will judge angels?..." 1 Cor. 6:3 and John saw us, "Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed." Rev. 20:4. (I know this strays from the topic of having a choice, but I say it to give us hope as I sense it waning.) But, suffice it to say, there will be those who adamantly state their innocence with pride and arrogance. If not convinced of their guilt, they will be ushered out the gate, "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out." Luke 13:28 Imagine their surprise when they see the patriarchs! But as this thread is about the restoration of all things, remember what God said when He created this world? "And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good." Gen. 1:31, and then in Rev. 21:5,"And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” and "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” And then, and most importantly, "No longer will there be anything accursed," Rev. 22:3. There will be no more evil of any kind. Doesn't that imply that there will not be anyone in eternal torment?
Interesting thoughts. I will take time to think on it some more. About this last part - it probably depends on if you hold to eternal torment or to conditionalism. If it's a second death and then they perish (destruction, cease to exist) then, yes no one is left in eternal torment. But it still shows that not everyone ends up in the kingdom/heaven. Some go to the lake of fire and the second death. |
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