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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 11:48:34 GMT -6
I think that is where you and I differ. I do not believe that God is still blinding people. I think that He did it to accomplish the establishment of Israel (w/ Pharaoh) through which the Messiah would come, and to bring about His redemptive purposes through Christ (temporary blindness w/ the Jews). I think any blindness today is man's own doing.
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2019 11:48:41 GMT -6
Has anyone experienced a time when you wanted to say something about the Lord to someone and found yourself mute? <<YESHave you ever found yourself speaking to a person and the gospel freely flowing from your lips? <<YESDo we think we own this ability? <<YES!! There have been times I knew exactly what I needed to say and didnt say it due to fear. There have times I knew what I needed to say and said it and more. In both cases I walk out pondering. In the former case I think "why didnt I obey you Lord" in the latter "thank you Lord for working in and through me and giving me the words to say"It seems to me we are not to know what we will say for it is Holy Spirit that intercedes, no? <<YesI will say there is a type of will for man. The good will to seek the Lord as his covering, or the evil will to do what he thinks is the way to go apart from God remaining deceived of things appearing to be Godly. From the scriptures that touch my heart and how I am currently perceiving, the Lord's Will is above all. So by deduction there will come a time that every knee will bow and worship follow Him. If no one comes to the Father except thru Christ and only if the Father draws, and if the truth is only revealed by the Holy Spirit then who overall is in charge? I would hope what i just said satisfies the debate of free will. We are either a bondslave to our flesh or a bondslave to the Lord. Either way i am not so sure how free we are if ya look at it that way. One way to heal this body of Christ is to make followers of Him. We witness we testify. This puts a soul in the presence of His court. From there THE LORD takes over. We Christians have complicated this simple request. BSG - I go back t my example from earlier pages on choice. Can you answer if Eve (and Adam) had a choice to eat the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Was it their choice or was it God choosing for them? (Remember there was no known evil or sin at the time this happened). EDIT - Also see the post where this world could not exist in current form without choice. We would have no ability to love God without the ability to choose to love Him. It simply doesnt work, and we have to accept culpability in the decision process. God blinding people is a result of their hardness and refusal. This is the theme of God giving someone over to their own lust and desires. Their hearts are hardened and they choose sin over righteousness. Jesus uses this example when speaking on divorce. It is the condition of the heart |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 15:32:33 GMT -6
cwood - you quoted a passage which I believe to be Mark 4, but if we read the same accounting but in Matthew 13:14-15 we get a little more detail:
Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.
Who is responsible? Did God dull their hearts, plug their ears, and close the people's eyes?
Jesus is putting the responsibility on them. They don't understand the parables because they are unwilling to listen. Therefore, "from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." (Matt 14:12) They will continue to be blind. But they blinded themselves first.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 26, 2019 15:33:34 GMT -6
Natalie , mike , yes. okay, so it is so. We HAVE a choice, we make a choice. Our evil choice (choosing fleshly desires/disobeying the Lord) though, will never WIN in the end. WHy? Because the mystery of the bondage that keeps us apart from the Lord we KNOW gets destroyed, ch 17 Rev. Whatever man thinks is the correct choice by his desires or will, or thinks he is control of his salvation (meaning, the cross is only because of his belief in it, when the cross is in spite of his belief in it), will be exposed as error, lies, lawless, you name it. Unless man chooses to follow the will of God, which is found in Christ, thru Christ, of Christ covering him with the Holy Spirit, man will walk in darkness. I think this last sentence is agreed upon, no? Man will walk in Death and be continually led astray by falsehoods. I see people calling Death, Hell, but my understanding of hell is not a room of fire with a guy standing there with a pitchfork and horns on his head keeping you just hot enough that it torments. I cant explain how I see it, other than to say if anything, it is an absence of Light, where tears and weeping a frustration exist. Not a hot place. Fire after all, is a form of light. When will death and false-teachings (anti-truths about the cross, namely) be demolished? When every knee bows (repents, turns and obeys) to the Lord God, and this WILL of His/God's, will be accomplished. So far it has happened in HEAVEN, and we know the rest of the prayer involves earth. Otherwise He is not all the things that He says He is. He paved the way via the Cross, had to do it that way. He showed what it meant thru a generation upon generation of a people who demonstrated for us before He came in the Flesh. He established the Law so as to fulfill it. I know you know these things, I say them this way so you know where my understanding is, in case perhaps I am incorrect in what it all means. The Law being fulfilled means there is one more task at hand. Subjecting everything to Himself. He is Heir, as a Son, He is High Preist (thru the conquering of the veil/His Flesh), He is KING, because we was crowned by God, and Seated as such. Thru Him, all can enter this Kingdom. It will be the LAST KINGDOM that will never be destroyed, right? And too, Jesus ALSO has the keys to Death/hades. what does that mean? Jesus ROSE from the dead, what did that mean? It means Good News for all. And we are asked by the Lord to share it. Jesus reveals the truth thru the Holy Spirit, right? Does He deny truth to only the non-believer? Seems to me there are many a Christian denomination built on falsehoods. These things must happen, they must be repeated the way the Pharisees handled it and we see in Rev the repeated events of the one Week (ya know, the events within that 70th one when involving Christ in the flesh?) being repeated but on steroids and with a gob of glorified witnesses (Rev 14). So, no Natalie, I do not agree with your statement that only the jews were temporary blinded. I know this because I have been married to a blinded person who is now beginning to see. I was also raised in a denomination that I feel is also partially blinded. It is nice to have overcome that denomination and be following the Lord.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 15:40:50 GMT -6
But my question would be...did God blind your husband? Or is he blind because of how he was raised, the thoughts he thinks, pride, stubbornness, (realize I don't know him and am just listing things)? Is your denomination blind because they have accepted man made interpretations, or pride, or self-righteousness, whatever? (again, I don't know them, just giving examples.
And you can bow your knee but not necessarily your heart. Every knee may bow, but that doesn't mean they are loyal to the king. They can see Him as rightful ruler, but that doesn't mean they belong to Him.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 17:55:19 GMT -6
boraddict - Some thoughts for you: I see different groups in Revelation -- The Bride / Church Rev 19:7-9 These are in the Lamb's book and will live in the city of New Jerusalem Rev 12:27 -- Martyrs during the time of Anti-Christ Rev 20:4 They will reign with Christ 1000 years and are not part of the church -- Everyone else who has died (OT time, NT unbelievers, during the Trib and 1000 years) Rev 20:5, 11-13 This last group is the one who is judged by their works and by the Book Could those whose names are in the Book be OT saints (David, Moses, Abraham, etc) Could it be the same book Moses was speaking of in Exodus 32:32?
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 18:33:57 GMT -6
But my question would be...did God blind your husband? Or is he blind because of how he was raised, the thoughts he thinks, pride, stubbornness, (realize I don't know him and am just listing things)? Is your denomination blind because they have accepted man made interpretations, or pride, or self-righteousness, whatever? (again, I don't know them, just giving examples. And you can bow your knee but not necessarily your heart. Every knee may bow, but that doesn't mean they are loyal to the king. They can see Him as rightful ruler, but that doesn't mean they belong to Him. Actually it is a full acceptance, acknowledgement, even praise and whole heartedly loyal and joyful in the confession, agreement, allegiance or whichever word the particular translation uses. No half hearted ness or begrudgingly in agreement. In all honesty the Greek or even Aramaic to English does no justice for the depths of the meaning of the word used here in the NT and in the original Isaiah passage. Many studies have been done in regards to this word, much like agape (absolute pure enduring love). Here is The Greek: 1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back). a) I consent fully, agree out and out, (b) I confess, admit, acknowledge (cf. the early Hellenistic sense of the middle: I acknowledge a debt), (c) I give thanks, praise.The translation to the Greek from the Aramaic is a transliteration. This verse is repeated 3 times throughout scriptures and in Isaiah God says His word will not return void and he declares every knee will bow and every tongue will wholeheartedly agree and confess with no reservation, even in praise will confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. How can we read this and say this is not so or will only happen for a particular group of people or believers? Having the understanding that all means all is taking things out of context? I am sorry but my heart says this is repeated to mean pay attention to this as the Lord declares it as so and not being taken out of context. EDITING TO ADD: “ that if you confess with your mouth, " Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved (present tense, not future) .”I underlined the word confess because it is another word where the English translation is so dull. This word is meaning to come to an understanding or acknowledge with assurance. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 19:20:08 GMT -6
Romans 14:11 Here it is in some context: Why do you pass judgment on your brother? or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. So, what is it that we are confessing? It seems to me that our confession is our giving an account before God. We are not to judge what another believer eats or how they celebrate (the context of the passage) because we ourselves will be judged by God. And yes, we would confess, admit, acknowledge our sins without reservation because He knows our hearts and minds. There would be no hiding anything anyway.
I will have to look up the other instances later to see the context.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 20:11:09 GMT -6
Ok, I looked up the other, Phil 2:10
Context: Paul is explaining the deity of Christ, and concludes with "at the name of Jesus every knee should [meaning they will] bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [He is God], to the glory of God the Father." (Paul does not say this is a quote from Isaiah, so it's possible that he is expanding the quote or just stating a Holy Spirit inspired fact, but it's not an exact quote like in Romans)
And I agree that everyone everywhere throughout all time will whole-heartedly confess that Jesus is none other than Lord and God. But those who belong to Him will do it with praise and passion and belief in Him for salvation. Those who do not belong to Him will do it with fear and trembling and great awe. (ETA look at the Greek definition again. It says nothing about loyalty)
This passage is about who Christ is - His humility so that we are humble with each other, His love so that we put others before ourselves, His servanthood and willing obedience. And in the end He is exalted. (And in a way, will we not also be exalted with Him?) It is not about everyone coming to belief in Him; it is about everyone confessing who He is.
I think that part of the reason Satan is let loose after the 1000 years is to prove that people can confess that Jesus is Lord, even living under His reign with no satanic influence, but many will still choose "not Christ" when given a chance.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 28, 2019 8:04:32 GMT -6
Natalie , But my question would be...did God blind your husband? Or is he blind because of how he was raised, the thoughts he thinks, pride, stubbornness, (realize I don't know him and am just listing things)? Is your denomination blind because they have accepted man made interpretations, or pride, or self-righteousness, whatever? (again, I don't know them, just giving examples. And you can bow your knee but not necessarily your heart. Every knee may bow, but that doesn't mean they are loyal to the king. They can see Him as rightful ruler, but that doesn't mean they belong to Him. My question back then, is, are the modern day jews a separate involuntary blinded case? I ask this because I hear in the background those who explain the 7 year trib as saying that once the church is out of here, this will cause the jews to be unblinded. I am totally paraphrasing, but that is the simplicity of the 7 years that is being taught out there. This thinking takes major chunks of Revelation in an interpretation that I do not agree with. SO, with that said, either they are self-blinded by pride, stubbornness the things you list above, or they are blinded by God so as to accomplish something down the road that is even more grand. See, the latter to me is the mystery. His ways are grander than ours or who can fathom His ways? Being blinded is not an evil thing, or something to be angry or frustrated over,,,in the long run. Being blinded AND THEN the unblinding is to me the greater glory. When I see that every knee will bow tells me they are Kingdom members, seeing the King as who He is, and NO ONE can enter the Kingdom except thru Faith. So this bowing verse to me implies that the person doing the bowing is not doing so with a hardened heart still. The heart has repented from their inner-self righteousness and turned to Jesus for their covering of their sins, and humbling themselves before Him. That HE is the one the cleanses, does a work in them, etc. Can this happen AFTER death? 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. and even into the next chapter we see: 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. It explains who is NOT in the Kingdom, but it does not say they exist outside the Kingdom. after the 1000 years all we have are this: 10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. It does say that anyone whose name is not in the Life book is thrown in there, but is there actually anyone in there? The devil, the deceiving of the FP and the Beast, but, I don't know. I also don't think these are actual people themselves. These are spiritual conditions that are consumed by God's Lake. bear with me, gonna post this and may need to edit later
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Post by mike on Aug 28, 2019 8:35:47 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl , why is it that the post omits the context which these verses (from Rev 20) were written? The way I read what you write seems to indicate you are picking pieces of scripture to say what you want it to say. You partially quote Rev 20:5 omitting the rest of the verse But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. In addition to the context verse 6 is a continuation of the same the thought, perhaps even same breath. 6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Those who are considered part of the first resurrection do not experience the second death and are considered holy, priests of God and Christ. Anyone not resurrected at this point should NOT be considered priests to God or holy, I believe this point is very clear here dear sister. Am I missing what you are trying to say?
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Post by mike on Aug 28, 2019 8:40:17 GMT -6
So what is the second death? I dont know about you but that sounds pretty terrifying to me. Dying a second time, wow!
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
So in CONTEXT these described were not part of the first resurrection. Verse 7-10 deal with Satan, now the scene is the Judgment Seat. Where do you locate the opportunity for someone who is dead to acknowledge Jesus as Lord, accepting His sacrifice for their sins? Have you inserted a pause or some other plausibility by conflating scripture? You view is hard to see and as I said accepting salvation after one dies is not biblical. I have asked for the support but I'm not seeing it. These are judged by their works. Why? Because their names are not found in the book of life.
Where else do we see the book of life?
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Psa 69:28 26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Matt 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Can these who are blotted out be the same ones described in Rev 13:8? Can denying Christ before men still give us another chance to accept him before (in the presence of) the dead or angels or Jesus Himself? If Jesus denies someone before the Father, then what? Go back and do it again until you get it right, back of the line, until you believe? I just don't follow this thinking you posit. We die and face judgment (Heb 9:27) or we are caught up with Him as we are His at His coming (1 Cor 15:23)
So a rhetorical question from your perspective. Because I am not seeing this the way you do, does that make me blind to it? If yes why is God blinding me to what you believe you see clearly? Moreover does it matter in the end? (Again just rhetorical questions)
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2019 9:08:41 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl said: It does say that anyone whose name is not in the Life book is thrown in there, but is there actually anyone in there? The devil, the deceiving of the FP and the Beast, but, I don't know. I also don't think these are actual people themselves. These are spiritual conditions that are consumed by God's Lake. "But as for the cowardly, the faithless (NKJV the unbeliever), the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." Rev 21:8 And yes, the devil is an actual being that will be thrown into the Lake. He will be conquered and done a way with once and for all. Praise God!
ETA: Here is what I posted to Bora about the dead and book of Life: I see different groups in Revelation
-- The Bride / Church Rev 19:7-9 These are in the Lamb's book and will live in the city of New Jerusalem Rev 12:27 -- Martyrs during the time of Anti-Christ Rev 20:4 They will reign with Christ 1000 years and are not part of the church
-- Everyone else who has died (OT time, NT unbelievers, during the Trib and 1000 years) Rev 20:5, 11-13 This last group is the one who is judged by their works and by the Book
Could those whose names are in the Book be OT saints (David, Moses, Abraham, etc)
Could it be the same book Moses was speaking of in Exodus 32:32?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 28, 2019 9:31:09 GMT -6
This is what I know of the Jews today: "Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is that taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed." (2 Cor 3:12-16) It does not say who put the veil there. But the Bible also says: “When you father children and children's children, and have grown old in the land, if you act corruptly by making a carved image in the form of anything, and by doing what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, so as to provoke him to anger, I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that you will soon utterly perish from the land that you are going over the Jordan to possess. You will not live long in it, but will be utterly destroyed. And the Lord will scatter you among the peoples, and you will be left few in number among the nations where the Lord will drive you. And there you will serve gods of wood and stone, the work of human hands, that neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell. But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul. When you are in tribulation, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, you will return to the Lord your God and obey his voice. For the Lord your God is a merciful God. He will not leave you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers that he swore to them. (Deut 4:25-31) I think this is one of the passages used to say that the 7 years will bring them back to God.
There are several other verses that speak of God being found when a person seeks Him. Why would God blind people and then say they can search and find Him? Like a divine game of Marco Polo??? I return to what I said to cwood, I believe that what we see in the NT is a temporary blinding by God until His redemptive plan had come to pass through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It's what Jesus said - they have closed their eyes and refused to believe (Matt 13:14-15) and so that veil is there hiding the truth until they turn and seek Him with all their hearts. (Paul says the same thing in Acts 28:23-28) (If you want to, go to One for Israel and watch the testimonies of Jews who turned and had the veil lifted. It's beautiful.)
ETA: I know many see the blinding from the NT times carrying over to today and being removed during the 70th week. Being that God blinded them until the Church is complete. I don't hold to this as I have explained in this thread. I think that the two passages above answer to the verse that speaks of a partial hardening (the veil which can be removed) until the fullness of the Gentiles (then Deut 4).
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 28, 2019 13:25:14 GMT -6
yes you are missing it entirely. I could have posted the entire chapter, but I didn't, because The first Resurrection happens BEFORE the 1000 yr reign does it not? The white throne judgement is AFTER the 1000K reign, no?
This throne judgement seems to involve many a people that are not necessarily saints. Keep in mind that when I post scripture there is a context behind that I am fully aware of. I would never intentionally post scripture just to fit my view. I take the scriptures that are supporting what I am seeing based on context, and all the times threads have been built around discussions of them, or I had experienced them in bible studies, etc. I particularly like to know there is a pattern going on demonstrated somewhere else in the OT for example, to help understand context as well, since there is nothing new under the sun.
I can already tell you that you and I an Natalie are on different sets of railway sidings as the Revelation Train is heading across the plain.
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