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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 25, 2019 18:11:39 GMT -6
stormyknight, mike, boraddict, Natalie, we have had a ridiculous work schedule with our business these past few days. mike , I did not catch that you had replied until the next day, and I was in a hurry. I wanted to say all that so you know that I am not avoiding anything you said. I want most of all to at least have mike say, well, "at least that is an answer to my question." meaning, I understand your question and give an answer. I am not trying to persuade anybody. I came along here to help cw, who she and I have come to a point of view together at the same time and it occurred 2 years ago in the thread that silentknight was careful to ask permission to share. We all seek Truth we all speak truths at one time or another, so it is always a good thing to hear each other out. None of us know when the Lord is trying to say something thru each one of us. After all, we all seem to be answering His Call. give me chance here mike to respond as I at least want to be successful understanding your question. LOL! the one thing before I go further is to address the comment I made about all the end times books my mother has purchased over the years. I would say that 99% of them are pre-trib books. BUt you all must know it is not just this forum, it is not just silentknight, it is taking what seems to be the mainstream thinking on a 7 year trib that I took to seek and challenge , is it 100% truth? Ever see Lee Strobel's Case for Christ? He went about interviewing and checking out this Christ. And in doing so he came to a remarkable conclusion. All the points in favor of CHrist were column after column of witness account and whatever. The case against CHrist, well, he had nothing written there. Brings tears to my eyes. THIS is what happened to me about the 70th week, about eternal torment, about annihilation and even conditionalism. I owe MOST of this change from my position of the 7yr trib to this forum. Really. Seriously. Every time someone makes a point we are required to test the spirits, are we not? I view this family as a net, the net is CHrist, yet some of us have half our fishy bodies hangin out of the holes of the net. The holes are there because of man's doctrine, ie Calvinism, protestant movement, Catholicism, 7th day whatever, assembly of God, TV evangelists, E-free churches, get my point? The net was strong within the first century (generation) of Christ;s witnesses, but ever since, MAN has made it a mess. All for a purpose though. This I have faith in, because His Word never returns void. The holes in the net will begin to be repaired at the Sealing of the First fruits. That is how I have come to see the Revealing.
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Post by boraddict on Aug 26, 2019 2:32:58 GMT -6
Christ did everything that was necessary for salvation. There is no need for someone to go to hell (or whatever your term might be) and suffer or be purified. Wouldn't that be adding some sort of work to grace? Why did Jesus have to come to die in the first place then? Couldn't He be believed on without the cross? And I still haven't seen a satisfactory verse that says after you die and are judged you get a second chance at accepting Christ. As for that passage in Peter... "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, in which He [the Spirit] went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah,..." The whole of the passage is speaking of the time of Noah. Whoever these spirits are were from the days of Noah. (Not from the whole of time) Through the Spirit by the words of Noah, Christ was preached to them and they are now in prison. I think this is a very misunderstood passage. I've had a hard time with it until I went looking for an explanation (and reading it all in context...BSG you cut and pasted different passages together to make your point). (See also 1 Peter 1:10-11 concerning the prophets of OT and the Spirit of Christ) And as for 1 Peter 4:6 They were preached to and are now dead. Reading again the whole passage, it is speaking of the Gentiles who live a wild life and will give an account to Him. The gospel was preached to them, although they have now died, so that they too would have had a chance to live for Him.
I do not think the suffering in hell (prison) has anything to do with purifying an individual since their sins remain with them. The only exception is that one might be washed clean via the blood of Christ. So the question is: Does a person in prison have an opportunity to accept Christ and have their sins washed away? I guess there are two parts to the question the first of which is: 1) Can a person reject Christ while in mortality and then repent from prison to have salvation. Scripture tends to say no to that question. No second chance! 2) The second question is: Can a person having died the mortal death that has never heard of Christ while in mortality have salvation after they hear of Christ in prison? That is, anyone can have salvation if they accept Christ while in mortality, but they first must hear the gospel message. So if they first hear the gospel message after they have died, then are they denied salvation for not accepting salvation while in mortality? That is, they did not hear the message while in mortality and are condemned forever for not accepting Christ even if they accept Christ when they hear the message. It seems that judging them as men in the flesh are judged, means, that they can be judged. This necessitates that they have an opportunity for salvation to avoid judgment. That is, salvation erases the need for judgment and since they can be judged then they likewise can have salvation to avoid that judgment. Rev. 20:12-15 goes to the heart of this subject in that the spiritually dead and not the spiritually living are judged. Because, the spiritually living have salvation and the spiritually dead do not have salvation. Thus, the dead are judged according to their works; however, the living (in Christ) are not judged according to their works because they have salvation from their sins. Therefore, an individual having died the mortal death and then hearing the gospel message and accepting Christ's payment washing their sins away has salvation and are included in the book of life (Rev. 20:15). This addresses the salvation of souls like the Vikings, American Indians, etc. that have never heard of Christ while in mortality but being in the book of life and having their sins washed away. How did they do it having never heard of Christ while in mortality? That is, when did they hear the gospel message if they did not hear it while in mortality? They must have heard it after they died from mortality and it is for that reason that they can be judged; because, they can accept salvation; otherwise they can not be fairly judged. |
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Post by inaweofhim on Aug 26, 2019 7:01:29 GMT -6
Hi boraddict,
I am probably making a big mistake jumping into this thread; but I do not see in the Bible where a person gets a second chance after death.
Rom 1: 18-23, and Heb 9:27 pretty much seals the notion, to me, of all the opportunity to know the LORD while alive. Our GOD makes HIMSELF known, and HIS plan for salvation to every single person HE creates on this earth, according to what I read in the Bible. I believe HE gives everyone many chances to know HIM and HIS salvation while alive. HIS ways are endless in that endeavor, I believe. HE is infinitely creative!
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2019 7:28:59 GMT -6
Hi boraddict, I am probably making a big mistake jumping into this thread; but I do not see in the Bible where a person gets a second chance after death. Rom 1: 18-23, and Heb 9:27 pretty much seals the notion, to me, of all the opportunity to know the LORD while alive. Our GOD makes HIMSELF known, and HIS plan for salvation to every single person HE creates on this earth, according to what I read in the Bible. I believe HE gives everyone many chances to know HIM and HIS salvation while alive. HIS ways are endless in that endeavor, I believe. HE is infinitely creative! I think something to consider is the availability of the gospel which is what BORA touches on in her post. This is something I have struggled with and still look for a very solid reasoning as to how the Lord reconciles Himself to those who are seemingly completely blinded. First we make assumption that they are completely blinded as I believe BORA has noted with Vikings & American Indians, however I find this a bit skewed in my thought process. As we diligently study we must consider the biblical timeline in our accounts. Simply put Adam lived 930 years and experienced walking with God in the garden. God taught Adam (& Eve) first hand. They had the opportunity to sit with (likely) the pre-incarnate Christ understanding Him. When they sinned they were thrown out of the garden, but that didnt mean the garden 'poof' disappeared, it was still there as a reminder of what they had done and the consequence of that action. We can understand this in that the Lord placed angels to guard the garden, then when Cain murdered Abel he was told to go away to the east of Eden. Point being the stories of who God is/was were passed down from one generation to the next. Again we can see this evidence in that when Noah finally made it to dry ground, what did he do but sacrifice to the Lord. Something the Lord Himself taught Adam & Eve and their children understood - which is why Cain murder Abel as his offering was not accepted. As these stories of the Lord were passed down, the generations had the choice to see Him in nature and understand His character. But like Abel, many of these cultures decided to walk in their own desires |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 7:41:48 GMT -6
and to continue with what Mike said...these cultures then influence the following generations. It's what I think Romans 1 speaks of. Man suppresses the truth. God doesn't blind people to the truth, Satan does through false religion. But they do not have to stay blind; it's not permanent.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 7:49:45 GMT -6
This addresses the salvation of souls like the Vikings, American Indians, etc. that have never heard of Christ while in mortality but being in the book of life and having their sins washed away. How did they do it having never heard of Christ while in mortality? That is, when did they hear the gospel message if they did not hear it while in mortality? They must have heard it after they died from mortality and it is for that reason that they can be judged; because, they can accept salvation; otherwise they can not be fairly judged. You make a good point, but I still don't see in Scripture that they hear the Gospel after they die. Maybe I need to study the concept of the Book of Life. |
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 8:18:45 GMT -6
and to continue with what Mike said...these cultures then influence the following generations. It's what I think Romans 1 speaks of. Man suppresses the truth. God doesn't blind people to the truth, Satan does through false religion. But they do not have to stay blind; it's not permanent. Ummmm? 10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”And 21At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “ I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 22“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.” 23Turning to the disciples, He said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, 24for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.”
Not trying to be argumentative but it seems God blinds people to how He sees fit including His prophets to what he does and does not want them to know or understand. Seems he confounded and did not reveal the truths to the scholars and educated religious leaders during multiple generations on purpose and Jesus praised Him for it. Does that mean all who heard the parables and did not understand are now in hell? God blinded them on purpose as is clearly stated knowing they would die in ignorance and damned them at the same time? In the very next verses of Mark 4 we see what role Satan plays in tampering with the word. Satan may deceive but we make false religion based on our lies, vanity and pride. 13And He said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14“The sower sows the word. 1 5“These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16“In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18“And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20“And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” |
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Post by mike on Aug 26, 2019 8:56:10 GMT -6
cwood85 - from what you have written and quoted it appears that you think God picks certain people to blind and other to not, is that correct? If I am reading this correctly how does this not conflict with God being a respecter of persons? How does He chose one person to blind over another and why? I do have a point with the question but want to ensure I dont assume the answer without asking first. Who is the sower in the parable? Where is the seed sown? Who came and snatched away the seed?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 10:01:25 GMT -6
Cwood- I did a whole thread on my studies about God choosing to blind people or not. The Pharisees had hardened their hearts toward the truth. Therefore, God kept them in this state. To blind the already hardened Pharisees was to accomplish His purpose. So, yes, I suppose God does blind some people, but it's not random; it was a select group who were already hard hearted. My understanding is that they are not permanently blind, but only until Jesus's earthly purpose was accomplished. They remained hardened, and so Paul goes to the Gentiles (Acts 28:23-28). (And we see that it was a temporary blinding because in that passage some did choose to believe) And, should a "blind" Jew today turn and seek Jesus then that veil is lifted. They are not permanently blind and can never accept the Truth. (2 Cor 3:14-16)
The disciples (and many others) were open to believing Jesus, so they had eyes to see. My understanding about the prophets is that they longed to see Jesus but it wasn't time. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
Many who followed Jesus only wanted what He could give them - healing, free food - and they did not want the truth. We see this when He starts giving them hard teachings like His body being bread. They blinded themselves. God didn't blind people and then disguise the truth in parables. That would be like putting a blindfold over a blind man's eyes.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 11:06:35 GMT -6
The Bible speaks of the Jews being blind, but to my knowledge it does not speak of God blinding any others except Pharaoh (who had hardened his heart, so God blinded him until God's purpose was fulfilled). Paul says that he is going to take the message to the Gentiles because they will believe it. However, we know that not all Gentiles will believe. I have people in my family that have heard the truth and refuse to believe it. That was my point with Romans 1. Man has found many ways to suppress the truth, and Satan keeps it that way. It's not God that does it.
I find the teaching that God blinds people, gives them no chance at truth, and then punishes them for it repulsive. It's not what the Bible teaches. People have the choice to believe or not.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:07:43 GMT -6
cwood85 - from what you have written and quoted it appears that you think God picks certain people to blind and other to not, is that correct? If I am reading this correctly how does this not conflict with God being a respecter of persons? <<< beats the heck out of me lol I am not God. I am just posting what is in scriptures. For further reference to God blinding some and not others for His purpose, will and His plan behind the blinding please see the verses from Romans below. It was for their future good and reconciliation that they were blinded and everything was told in parables. They are not being condemned for being blinded in the long run by God.
"7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
8just as it is written,
“GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.”
9And David says,
“LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP,
AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.
10“LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED TO SEE NOT,
AND BEND THEIR BACKS FOREVER.”
11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! How does He chose one person to blind over another and why? ^^^I think these verses answer your question here. For an even more interesting read in this chapter in Romans 11, read verses 1-6 and how God deemed and CHOSE those who would and would not worship Baal during the time of Elijah. I do have a point with the question but want to ensure I dont assume the answer without asking first. Who is the sower in the parable? Where is the seed sown? Who came and snatched away the seed? Naturally I would assume naturally the sower is God or anyone sharing the word? I am not 100% on that and at least in these part of scripture, is not specified. God however is referred to as the farmer, grower, and etc in many other areas of scriptures. For your second question it seems the seed is sown in various areas, beside the road, in/on rocks, among thorns and in good fertile soil. Satan came and snatched the word away (in the parable this is what the birds are referencing to). 1He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. 2And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, 3“Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow; 4as he was sowing, some seed fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate it up. 5“Other seed fell on the rocky ground where it did not have much soil; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of soil. 6“And after the sun had risen, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7“Other seed fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8“Other seeds fell into the good soil, and as they grew up and increased, they yielded a crop and produced thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.” 9And He was saying, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” The sower parable from Matthew:3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4And as he was sowing, some seed fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured it.
5Some fell on rocky ground, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings. 8Still other seed fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold. 9He who has ears,a let him hear.” The sower parable from Luke:4When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: 5“The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. 6“Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. 7“Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. 8“Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” |
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:16:06 GMT -6
Cwood- I did a whole thread on my studies about God choosing to blind people or not. The Pharisees had hardened their hearts toward the truth. Therefore, God kept them in this state. To blind the already hardened Pharisees was to accomplish His purpose. <<<<Yes but it also says the same for the prophets and kings of God as well who were not hard of heart. God simply did not privy them to that information even though they sought it. So, yes, I suppose God does blind some people, but it's not random; it was a select group who were already hard hearted. My understanding is that they are not permanently blind, but only until Jesus's earthly purpose was accomplished. They remained hardened, and so Paul goes to the Gentiles (Acts 28:23-28). (And we see that it was a temporary blinding because in that passage some did choose to believe) And, should a "blind" Jew today turn and seek Jesus then that veil is lifted. They are not permanently blind and can never accept the Truth. (2 Cor 3:14-16)
The disciples (and many others) were open to believing Jesus, so they had eyes to see. My understanding about the prophets is that they longed to see Jesus but it wasn't time. (1 Peter 1:10-11)
Many who followed Jesus only wanted what He could give them - healing, free food - and they did not want the truth. We see this when He starts giving them hard teachings like His body being bread. They blinded themselves. God didn't blind people and then disguise the truth in parables. That would be like putting a blindfold over a blind man's eyes. This is referenced with scripture in my reply to Mike. "11And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN.”
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Post by Natalie on Aug 26, 2019 11:25:17 GMT -6
cwood85 , I agree with you that they were not condemned because of their blindness, but only because I believe it was a temporary blindness. I think that after Jesus rose again, having accomplished His purpose, the blindness was removed. However, many still refused to believe. Acts 28:23-24 "From morning till evening [Paul] expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. And some were convinced by what he said, but others disbelieved." They heard, understood, but refused the truth. That's when they become condemned, not while they were blinded.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 26, 2019 11:29:07 GMT -6
Has anyone experienced a time when you wanted to say something about the Lord to someone and found yourself mute?
Have you ever found yourself speaking to a person and the gospel freely flowing from your lips?
Do we think we own this ability?
It seems to me we are not to know what we will say for it is Holy Spirit that intercedes, no?
I will say there is a type of will for man. The good will to seek the Lord as his covering, or the evil will to do what he thinks is the way to go apart from God remaining deceived of things appearing to be Godly. From the scriptures that touch my heart and how I am currently perceiving, the Lord's Will is above all. So by deduction there will come a time that every knee will bow and worship follow Him. If no one comes to the Father except thru Christ and only if the Father draws, and if the truth is only revealed by the Holy Spirit then who overall is in charge? I would hope what i just said satisfies the debate of free will. We are either a bondslave to our flesh or a bondslave to the Lord. Either way i am not so sure how free we are if ya look at it that way.
One way to heal this body of Christ is to make followers of Him. We witness we testify. This puts a soul in the presence of His court. From there THE LORD takes over. We Christians have complicated this simple request.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 26, 2019 11:32:07 GMT -6
The Bible speaks of the Jews being blind, but to my knowledge it does not speak of God blinding any others except Pharaoh (who had hardened his heart, so God blinded him until God's purpose was fulfilled) <<<God hardened Pharaohs heart so he would keep refusing, otherwise the Pharaoh would have let the Israelites go. Paul says that he is going to take the message to the Gentiles because they will believe it. However, we know that not all Gentiles will believe. I have people in my family that have heard the truth and refuse to believe it. That was my point with Romans 1. Man has found many ways to suppress the truth, and Satan keeps it that way. It's not God that does it.
I find the teaching that God blinds people, gives them no chance at truth, and then punishes them for it repulsive. It's not what the Bible teaches. People have the choice to believe or not.
As do I find it repulsive and the bible says He will not punish them or anyone for it and Paul clarifies that in Romans. My point in what I am posting is we do not know when God does or does not blind someone and we absolutely should not assume everyone chooses to see, believe or not. He may have a different plan for them that we will never know. Which is why I have such an issue with the teaching of eternal torment and even annihilation because He would blind some to the truth for his purpose and not punish them, but then keep others unblinded and punish them? How is that not partiality or favoritism? Why do I say this? Because in the beginning of Romans 11, Paul points out Elijah questioned the same thing and was met with a surprising answer, God chose those who would not worship and believe in idols. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. |
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