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Post by stormyknight on Aug 22, 2019 11:52:22 GMT -6
I would like to add that maybe the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be something akin to those souls crying out in defiance, "nooo, you can't do this to me!!!" So the torment would be their own that they inflict on themselves just before God 'Poofs' them away.
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2019 11:58:43 GMT -6
I would like to add that maybe the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would be something akin to those souls crying out in defiance, "nooo, you can't do this to me!!!" So the torment would be their own that they inflict on themselves just before God 'Poofs' them away. Really sounds like Matt 13:36-50 describes something other than Restoration and Conditionalism. I'm sure I'm not contemplating the whole thing, but to a person reading the bible the first time, wouldnt they get the idea of hell or some similar punishment/justice for rejecting salvation. |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 22, 2019 14:20:35 GMT -6
As a famous fictional sci-fi character once said, “Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.” Having said that, I know that one day we will all look at things from the same point of view. The differences in upbringing and the path of our education has a large effect on how we see things. I see the man who found the treasure in the field and the merchant who found the pearl as those whom God has called and have dropped their ties with this world to follow Christ. But the weeds and the bad fish are like the five virgins who didn't refill their oil. The angels, at God's command, closed the doors on them, or separated them from the saints of God. When God burns up the old heaven and the old earth, it will be the same event as Rev. 21:8. I mean, why waste a good fire. Then when Rev. 21:1 happens, all things are new, no evil, no tears, nothing but joy and glorious life forever! Maybe I'm over simplifying it. That doesn't answer your question, though, mike. I suppose a newly converted person might see it as the kind of hell that this world portrays, such as Dante's Inferno. I would submit that it is satan's doing to make the world believe that the torment/punishment is eternal and not just a final end or second death. But, to find an answer is exactly what we are working on in this very thread! Thrilling is the word that comes to my mind.  |
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 22, 2019 15:02:27 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - still doesnt answer the issue, why? Because we are commanded to do it, Mike. To not tell people about the Good News is a form of disobedience, is it not?
The way I read what you presented is that "all dogs go to heaven" whether you worship self, Buddha, Mohammed, Satan or Jesus, it ultimately doesnt matter in the end. Where did I ever say or suggest that one can worship another god and get to enter the Kingdom, What is a drunkard worshipping? His alcohol. Does he need to quit? well, yes, quit worshipping or relying on it to solve his problems. We are to quit listening to our lawless self and FOLLOW the Lord. HE will do a work on you, but the drunkard who comes as a child to the Lord, turns it over to the Lord, I have faith that HE will impart a work on that soul so as to remove that drunkardness. We are powerless, are we not? we think we have power, but there in lies the struggle with our flesh. This is why Paul tells us SET YOUR MIND ON THNGS OF THE SPIRIT, not of things of the flesh or this world. We come to the Lord as we are, helpless, humble, lost, and weak, poor in spirit.
What purpose does sharing the good news with someone who will refuse it or dismiss it (and die in their sin)? How do you not know that God is using you to be a voice to that person? How do you not know a seed was planted before you came along and your WITNESSING tills that person's soil? It is not YOU personally that MAKES a person see the Light. It is the Holy Spirit. In our current physical state, what are the three elements that witness to the testimony? Blood, Water and Spirit (1John5) blood in that many die for Christ, Water-many get baptized as a public testimony of their faith, and the Spirit, which is anointed on a person, who then is capable of seeing/realizing the truth/becoming comforted, etc. etc.
This matters to me & you who have understood how good God is to us, but that comes with a heart that has been softened, study and time spent worshipping Him. But look around us, there are far too many who reject Him, worship false gods, demons and self. Yes, this is why the Good News must be spread that Jesus is the Lord not the false god, self, demons, or whatever. We WITNESS to the fact that there is only One God, who sent His Son in the flesh having conquered these things and to conquer these things as per His Plan for redemption of mankind.
Have you ever shared with someone who really had no idea what it was all about, and as a part of that discussion comes the question "will I go to hell if I dont believe"? In your scenario the answer is "no". (please interchange hell and the lake of fire for the purpose of this discussion as someone with no clue wouldnt understand the difference). I do not see the Lake of Fire as Hell. That is man's view of it. All the scriptures that talk about God and fire and refining, that to me is where I would direct a person who has never heard any of it. I would first lead them to all the verses that describe our Lord God. I think these verses are found on page 3 of this thread.
Mike, one thing I did as I began to understand what the 2 Adams were about and the Names of God and what that represented behind the scenes spiritually, is toss out ALL ALL ALL man's idea of what will happen in the end times. I threw out the 7 year trib with a mid point and a person sacrificing something wrong or whatever in some 3rd temple as being an abomination and really studied what abomination means to our Lord. and then I really looked to the patterns of the Feasts, and several other things. Believe me, I have access to some 500 books on end times over at my mom's house. I have read parts and all of many of them, and ate it up as truth, afterall, these people had credentials. I put all man;s writings aside and went strait to the Bible, with hub as my backup for greek and Hebrew. Prayerfully, I seek Him and what it all means using what we have as our current Bible. That is it in a nutshell.
If the answer to that person is "nope you go to heaven no matter what you believe or what you place your faith in", I never, and am not saying that at all. I never said all go to heaven. I said ALL will SEE CHRIST. He has the deed title, not satan. isnt that defeating the purpose of sharing the gospel? Isnt the reconciliation of ALL the purpose for the Gospel? None should say, well, I won't share this news because that person walking in darkness is so evil, why I will let that person just go on in darkness while I sit here in the Light. Afterall, that person is so wrong about everything, but there is no way I can convince him, he hates me, so why should I bother? God will deal with Him. Yes that is true that God will deal with him, but what did that attitude just say to your Lord? That attitude says, I, ME does or does not do x, y, z... when THAT in itself is a form a disobedience. A disobedience of witnessing and of loving an enemy or a lost person.
Its like convincing an eskimo to buy ice. Not really. I can convince an eskimo that there is better ice because I am a witness to better ice. I testify about that ice over the other ice the eskimo is standing on and living in. It is the Maker of the Ice that convinces that eskimo to turn from the bad or weak ice and follow the way to good ice, and there was a witness on earth that came along and verified it. That would be me.
I love analogies. There is another set of analogies if I get time, will share later tonight.
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2019 15:35:16 GMT -6
So, BSG I don't think I'm posing my question properly or you aren't understanding what I'm saying because you're not really addressing the issue. The questions have absolutely zero to do with the obedience of the believer, but the recipient of the person being witnessed to. I asked what I thought were simple questions to answer but I suppose not. With that I am not trying to prove a view or disprove another but rather than continue I'm gonna bail on this thread and the discussion in general
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 22, 2019 17:40:47 GMT -6
Mike, help me understand your question. I truly feel I was answering them. I personally me am not trying to persuade you. Just answering the questions as I read them. The Lord has you and I in the places we are right now. I dont want to fight that or label it with some kind of -ism of belief system. You are good for me in my deciphering.
Of the answers I did give, are they so off base or heretical? Is there anything I said that seems like a lie or is misleading?
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 22, 2019 19:15:54 GMT -6
Don't bail, mike. I value your input as well. I went back to where, I think, cwood85 was answering some of your questions. If I may, I'd like to add some things: Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things. First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have. I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view. My question to you or others is 1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire? Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe.Everyone needs refinement at one point or another in their life. If everyone however has received salvation, it wouldn't matter when someone believes or not. This would be Matt. 20:1-16, correct? It is not for us to say how much others get "paid" Now this is not to say to go sin all you want and be merry about it! Which Paul clarified this because that is crucifying Christ over and over again. Our actions still have consequences and for many, earthly consequences. What are the consequences with God in this regard? His wrath correction and chastisement. The wages of sin is death. But there are a couple of important factors that needs to be looked at here. In the way things are laid out in Revelation, death and hades, Satan and false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire before any humans are.
Hades (grave, realm of the dead) + Death go into the lake of fire and exist no more. So death and the grave are long gone.
This next part I would compare to Matt. 19:23. Look around us. I know some don't agree that we should judge, but I believe we do(we just don't condemn), but who are the rich and powerful people of the world? Not all, but most, I would say, are "cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolators..."
Than we have these sorts of people going in after death and hades: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their PART will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
I capitalized the word part here because this is the Greek word and its definition: Meros: a part, share, portion. A part of these people go into the Lake of fire, not their entirety as a human being? What part of them? Looks like the very sinful and wicked part of them. I don't agree with you here, cwood85, I believe the translation of αὐτοῦ (autou) would be his, her, or their,(some translations have it "of them") rendering it, as you have it above, "their part(portion, share)", meaning that is their "wages" for their sin since they did not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and have their sins wiped away. These will be those that I referred to earlier who will be wailing and gnashing their teeth when the door gets closed on them. But God in His infinite mercy will burn them up, the second death and leave no trace behind by burning up the earth and the heavens and starting completely over, restoring all things new. And we will get to sing His praises as the angels did the first time around.
2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and experiences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified? Do we not only "urge" as the Holy Spirit moves us? And to indulge in the flesh and hope to be purified later would be like the man that was given one talent and he hid it in the ground until his master returned. He had his talent(portion of the Holy Spirit) taken away. (This, of course, is a whole other can of worms concerning faith/works)
I think I may have answered this partially above but will come back this evening to finish it. I may have others to ask but think I should pause here |
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Post by boraddict on Aug 22, 2019 20:18:12 GMT -6
Salvation generally means to be saved from our sins. However, salvation does not mean that an individual will be resurrected.
Stated another way: the resurrection wherein an individual is brought forth from the grave does not mean that that individual has salvation.
This means that Rev. 20:12 pertains to the resurrection of which some will not be able to retain and will die the second death. That is, they die a second death the first of which is mortal and the second is the death of the resurrected body. Thus, "death and hell" were cast into the lake of fire (Rev. 19:20, 20:14) as well as those who follow them; because, they do not have salvation (Rev. 20:15).
This means that from the time that the beast "death" and the false prophet "hell" (Rev. 6:8) resurrect (Rev. 20:13), to the time that they die the second death (v. 20:14), is only as long as it takes to judge them (v. 20:12-13).
This shows that only those with salvation will resurrect to an eternal resurrection. Thus, the question, how does one obtain salvation? The answer is that every knee that bends to confess that Jesus is the Christ: has salvation, and those who do not bend the resurrected knee to confess Lord Jesus: are sent to their eternal grave.
From the above referenced verses it is clear that the beast and false prophet will not bend the knee. Also notice that the "devil" (Rev. 20:10) is not included along with "death and hell"; because, the devil has never died the mortal death and will never be resurrected to die the second death.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 23, 2019 1:14:38 GMT -6
boraddict I see the point you are making. There is a First Resurrection, and then we know there is a binding of satan then a release of him to deceive the nations and a white thrown judgement that seems to come after this release of satan. The timelines of Rev are a tricky thing. I stumbled on this with Peter so perhaps this helps explain why to share the Good News: 8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.
13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good?
14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20who once were disobedient,
1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
and just to back up why I believe all SEE or rather are confronted by Jesus upon a physical death is because of this:
3For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
4In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.It seems to me that the reason there is gnashing of teeth is out of frustration where the self desire is confronted by God's will or Truth. Especially to those who as the Pharisees were, walked around acting righteous, yet were full of dead man's bones. The weeping is the sadness that their faith was in themselves and not the Lord so as to not enter the Kingdom. But not entering the Kingdom does not make Hell or annihilation the result for these souls. Here's an account from Stephen's conversation in Acts of what causes a gnashing of teeth: 51“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
52“Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
53you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”
54Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him.
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Post by mike on Aug 23, 2019 10:28:33 GMT -6
shouldn't we all be excited to think of the possibility that the Lord can save every soul? Certainly He can, I am not disputing that, never have. we dont need this interjected into this current discussion as its not relevant to the questions I posed. Is that not the God News? After all, He created man, He came into the world and made atonement for the disobedience of ALL men. What makes one person less worthy than another to Follow Him? Nothing, He desires ALL men to be saved. We all are equally unworthy on our own merits, you know this, again this is not a relevant answer to the questions posed. But for the record, my understanding of the Gospel is that He not only made atonement for all, but also was found worthy to take possession of all things too. So even an evil person is HIS liability. This is where the conversation has caused me to disengage. Every person is accountable for their own decisions.
I think we differ right here in that although He knows our decisions before we make them and can put us on the path to where He desires us to be, we still are required to make that decision. You/me, everyone are at crossroads all the time and must choose between life & death, blessing & cursing (Deut 30:19). Think about the very sin, read that passage please (Gen 3:6-7) and compare that with (1John 2:16) and see that Eve demonstrates these characteristics and while faced with a decision of what God had explicitly told her (and Adam) - All the fruit is acceptable except that tree, yet she was tempted and lured away from truth and made a conscious decision to reject what God told her (directly to her face mind you). She made the choice, period. Just like we all have choices to make and those choices come with blessing and cursing. This theme is throughout the entire bible and culminates with belief on the Son or rejecting Him.
The serpent of old was cast out of Heaven, and soon will have no one to accuse anymore, which I think is what cass was saying. Once every knee bows there will be no one left to accuse... It does not mean now a robotic worship of Him. No. that is not what this thread of the Restoration of All Things claims. When I search UR, Gary, none of it fits to the discussions found in this thread. None of us dear, well-intentioned people can come to a 100% agreement of what the words in Revelation mean. So how do we know we are 100% correct that God is not going to be successful in restoring ALL of His creation? you indicate to me that you never said everyone would go to heaven, yet the way I read statements like this one make you appear contradictory To even think He can not accomplish HIS WILL,,,that none shall perish but have eternal life.. He doesnt force His will on anyone. He may lead us to the water but will not force your head to drink. You decide to drink or not. There are many who have died purposely rejecting Christ at their deathbed. btw, what is HIS WILL anyway? 1 John 3:23 That it be done, on this earth, as it is in Heaven. What's been going on in heaven? worship of the King, that is all nothing else, the royal (priestly) subjects are not peering into earth concerned for our well being, they are worshipping and serving the King. When my brother passed the thoughts of where he was became overwhelming to me. He wasnt thinking of me or my family, he was and is in the presence of GOD! Maybe He will cast out those in this present age from the Kingdom on earth, but I see it as only part of a grander picture, beyond the age we are experiencing. IS the Lak of Fire eternal through multiple ages? Here is this theme again BSG, statements like this contradict scripture Rev 20:10 either means forever or it doesnt. if it doesnt then our promises to be with Him forever are also in question. we cant have it both ways where we are with Jesus forever but those cast into the lake of fire eventually get out. Is it like a marriage where it is a promised union forever, until it is not? Marriage is not forever! Luke 20:34-36, Rom 7:2, 1 Cor 7:39If no one comes to the Father except thru Jesus and He rules until ALL THINGS are under His feet (paraphrase) I take the word ALL to mean just that. What that looks like, I don't know. Who am I to be unblinded to some of the truths Of God? Again where you & I differ greatly. We all have the same opportunity for God is not partial nor respecter of persons. Did I seek it myself? Or, was I unblinded by Him which caused the desire to seek it? we believe differently. statements similar to this is why I mention to Cwood that the view is Calvinistic, although not fully. it seems you believe you have no choice or option in the process yet we do! After all, He is beautiful fruit of which to partake, a fresh spring of Water from which to drink. Something way better than my own desire. I have tasted it, and it is good. So, why am I this way? what did I do to have this desire? BSG know that I love and respect you. For that reason I am reluctantly answering some of the questions and comment you made. However we do not see the Lord from the same viewpoint regarding this topic. My replies are in red |
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Post by mike on Aug 23, 2019 10:55:37 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - still doesnt answer the issue, why? Because we are commanded to do it, Mike. To not tell people about the Good News is a form of disobedience, is it not? the command is irrelevant if those who are chosen to be blind remain blind. The argument is circular as would be the command. Hows this sound as an example as I am understanding the way you are saying things - "go preach to the whole world about the good news, but many of those who you speak to will remain blind because I want them that way and no matter what you say to them they will never choose Me because I dont want them to" - this is the question I dont see that is being answered. Natalie asked the same question on page 3 of this thread and got the same reply which I find inadequate in light of the questionThe way I read what you presented is that "all dogs go to heaven" whether you worship self, Buddha, Mohammed, Satan or Jesus, it ultimately doesnt matter in the end. Where did I ever say or suggest that one can worship another god and get to enter the Kingdom, in the post above and throughout this 20+ page thread - Am I not understanding what "Restoring All Things means"? I am not going to read through this thread again. What is a drunkard worshipping? His alcohol. Does he need to quit? well, yes, quit worshipping or relying on it to solve his problems. We are to quit listening to our lawless self and FOLLOW the Lord. HE will do a work on you, but the drunkard who comes as a child to the Lord, turns it over to the Lord, I have faith that HE will impart a work on that soul so as to remove that drunkardness. We are powerless, are we not? we think we have power, but there in lies the struggle with our flesh. This is why Paul tells us SET YOUR MIND ON THNGS OF THE SPIRIT, not of things of the flesh or this world. We come to the Lord as we are, helpless, humble, lost, and weak, poor in spirit. What purpose does sharing the good news with someone who will refuse it or dismiss it (and die in their sin)? How do you not know that God is using you to be a voice to that person? Of course I can be. I dont think you understand the perspective I was trying to demonstrate. See comments in previous post. How do you not know a seed was planted before you came along and your WITNESSING tills that person's soil? It is not YOU personally that MAKES a person see the Light. It is the Holy Spirit. In our current physical state, what are the three elements that witness to the testimony? Blood, Water and Spirit (1John 5) blood in that many die for Christ, Water-many get baptized as a public testimony of their faith, and the Spirit, which is anointed on a person, who then is capable of seeing/realizing the truth/becoming comforted, etc. etc. This matters to me & you who have understood how good God is to us, but that comes with a heart that has been softened, study and time spent worshipping Him. But look around us, there are far too many who reject Him, worship false gods, demons and self. Yes, this is why the Good News must be spread that Jesus is the Lord not the false god, self, demons, or whatever. We WITNESS to the fact that there is only One God, who sent His Son in the flesh having conquered these things and to conquer these things as per His Plan for redemption of mankind.
Have you ever shared with someone who really had no idea what it was all about, and as a part of that discussion comes the question "will I go to hell if I dont believe"? In your scenario the answer is "no". (please interchange hell and the lake of fire for the purpose of this discussion as someone with no clue wouldnt understand the difference). I do not see the Lake of Fire as Hell. That is man's view of it. THIS WAS MY POINT!!! I asked you to consider them one in the same because the person who has only ever heard "accept Jesus or go to hell" would never understand the difference between the two. Nor would I even attempt to explain it someone not born yet, let alone not able to drink milk. I asked that you do this as a courtesy in the discussion, yet you didnt, wouldnt or couldnt - i'm not sure why but since I asked you to and you declined I view it as you not understanding the comment or me failing to say it properly. All the scriptures that talk about God and fire and refining, that to me is where I would direct a person who has never heard any of it. I would first lead them to all the verses that describe our Lord God. I think these verses are found on page 3 of this thread. Again we differ in view...Once someone is passed from this carnal world they are no longer in the refining fire. It seems you disagree with that and there is purification after. This was one of my questions to Cwood. Mike, one thing I did as I began to understand what the 2 Adams were about and the Names of God and what that represented behind the scenes spiritually, is toss out ALL ALL ALL man's idea of what will happen in the end times. I do not toss out all ideas, however I do not place my faith in them. Rather I respect those who God has called to teach others, not dismiss their calling. to me a statement like this is prideful BSG. Here's how I read what you said "I know better than all of those before me and will figure this out on my own" I threw out the 7 year trib with a mid point and a person sacrificing something wrong or whatever in some 3rd temple as being an abomination and really studied what abomination means to our Lord. and then I really looked to the patterns of the Feasts, and several other things. Believe me, I have access to some 500 books on end times over at my mom's house. I have read parts and all of many of them, and ate it up as truth, afterall, these people had credentials. I put all man;s writings aside and went strait to the Bible, with hub as my backup for greek and Hebrew. Prayerfully, I seek Him and what it all means using what we have as our current Bible. That is it in a nutshell. BSG No one is an island to themselves, do not be deceived. there are far too many people saying "God told me...." only to be found very wrong about what they thought God told them. I truly appreciate your desire to understand God, learning on your own but a word of caution sister - this is how doctrines of error happen, i'm sure you understand that and while your heart is right in intent remember Jer 17:9If the answer to that person is "nope you go to heaven no matter what you believe or what you place your faith in", I never, and am not saying that at all. I never said all go to heaven. I said ALL will SEE CHRIST. He has the deed title, not satan. isnt that defeating the purpose of sharing the gospel? Isnt the reconciliation of ALL the purpose for the Gospel? None should say, well, I won't share this news because that person walking in darkness is so evil, why I will let that person just go on in darkness while I sit here in the Light. Afterall, that person is so wrong about everything, but there is no way I can convince him, he hates me, so why should I bother? God will deal with Him. Yes that is true that God will deal with him, but what did that attitude just say to your Lord? That attitude says, I, ME does or does not do x, y, z... when THAT in itself is a form a disobedience. A disobedience of witnessing and of loving an enemy or a lost person.Its like convincing an eskimo to buy ice. Not really. I can convince an eskimo that there is better ice because I am a witness to better ice. I testify about that ice over the other ice the eskimo is standing on and living in. It is the Maker of the Ice that convinces that eskimo to turn from the bad or weak ice and follow the way to good ice, and there was a witness on earth that came along and verified it. That would be me. Apologies but you either miss my point or I do not do a good job explaining what I mean for which I can acknowledge my inadequaciesI love analogies. There is another set of analogies if I get time, will share later tonight.my replies are in blue |
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 23, 2019 11:14:53 GMT -6
boraddict I see the point you are making. There is a First Resurrection, and then we know there is a binding of satan then a release of him to deceive the nations and a white thrown judgement that seems to come after this release of satan. The timelines of Rev are a tricky thing. I stumbled on this with Peter so perhaps this helps explain why to share the Good News: 8To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. YAY!
13Who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good? If Jesus is for us, who can be against us? As long as we keep our focus on Him.
14But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; *see below
18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20who once were disobedient,
1Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
2so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
and just to back up why I believe all SEE or rather are confronted by Jesus upon a physical death is because of this:
3For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.
4In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. This is actually quite beautiful. All those time when our friends went, "c'mon, Stormy! Let's go PAAARRRTYYY" and we bowed out and caught heck for it. Jesus is going to ask them about it and they will give an account of us.
6For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. It seems to me that the reason there is gnashing of teeth is out of frustration where the self desire is confronted by God's will or Truth. Especially to those who as the Pharisees were, walked around acting righteous, yet were full of dead man's bones. The weeping is the sadness that their faith was in themselves and not the Lord so as to not enter the Kingdom. But not entering the Kingdom does not make Hell or annihilation the result for these souls. Here's an account from Stephen's conversation in Acts of what causes a gnashing of teeth: 51“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
52“Which one of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? They killed those who had previously announced the coming of the Righteous One, whose betrayers and murderers you have now become;
53you who received the law as ordained by angels, and yet did not keep it.”
54Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. In my mind, I see this like a dog growling and defending it's space. They being mad with anger that someone dare tell them they are wrong. Surely you all have encountered such people. Just the slightest mention that they might be wrong and they turn on you like... well like an angry dog.
*below This is something that I've prayed on a lot. That, if confronted, I would be able to give an account for my faith. I've confessed many times to Jesus that I just don't have the words on the spot(In here is different as I've got time to think). Anyway, just recently I was given the opportunity to at least give some history from the Bible. My sibling brothers and I were on the subject of the middle east the other day and were talking about where the muslims came from. My nephew surprised me when he and I both spoke up and told about Hagar and Ishmael. But what got me was when one of my brothers asked about the Jews. "What's so special about the Jews, nobody likes 'em, but yet they're still around?" He is not anti-jewish, by any means. As he was asking, I asked in my mind, "Oh my, Jesus help me!!" and then I proceeded to tell about God giving "them"(Israelites/Jews) the commandments and told them that if they follow them, they'll be blessed, but if they don't, he will curse them and eventually scatter them among the nations, but He promised to someday bring them back. And that is what He did in 1948. I said, "they even lost their language! No one on earth spoke Hebrew for hundreds of years, it was a dead language, but it's now back! God did what He promised!" And he(my brother) seemed to be quite impressed by this! And me? I was so grateful! Two years ago I wouldn't have been able to do that, even though I knew that history already. I just didn't have the nerve! I hope you all don't mind my sharing this here in this thread, but it was a major threshold for me. I know it's not exactly 'giving an account for the hope that is in me' but maybe it planted a seed in my brother to seek out more knowledge.
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Post by mike on Aug 23, 2019 11:57:30 GMT -6
From page 2 of this thread
I find this heretical and the scripture not in place to support it, please show me where someone can believe after death. Maybe I'm blind to it. But this goes back to the big question "if we all eventually get to heaven, why do I need to believe in Christ now, I can wait until I'm dead!" If I witness to someone and explain they will also hear the gospel from Christ Himself - I wouldnt listen to Mike!
EDIT - Please dont insert ideas into scripture that arent there either. If we die then face judgment (Heb 9:27) immediately (Luke 16:22) there is no time frame to believe after death. I know Luke 16 is a parable not to be taken literal. What of 2 Cor 5:6-8 or Php 1:23 (no longer in the body = with the Lord)
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Post by boraddict on Aug 24, 2019 22:01:17 GMT -6
From page 2 of this thread I find this heretical and the scripture not in place to support it, please show me where someone can believe after death. Maybe I'm blind to it. But this goes back to the big question "if we all eventually get to heaven, why do I need to believe in Christ now, I can wait until I'm dead!" If I witness to someone and explain they will also hear the gospel from Christ Himself - I wouldnt listen to Mike! EDIT - Please dont insert ideas into scripture that arent there either. If we die then face judgment (Heb 9:27) immediately (Luke 16:22) there is no time frame to believe after death. I know Luke 16 is a parable not to be taken literal. What of 2 Cor 5:6-8 or Php 1:23 (no longer in the body = with the Lord) The idea is that all whom die from mortality not accepting Christ will go to hell. We (all) know this to be true and scripture supports this. Then from hell the dead are called forth (resurrected) to be judged. Those whom have decided to accept Christ while in hell avoid that judgment. Thus, they were in hell and were brought forth from hell to salvation; although, they did suffer in hell for a period of time. So the question is: 1) does the individual wish to avoid the suffering that Christ himself experienced, or 2) does the individual wish to go to hell and experience that suffering for themselves. Those are the only two options available for salvation. The first option is classic Christian doctrine and the second option is derived from my personal research and I will find the supporting verses in the next few days. Lastly, those whom have gone from mortality to hell and reject salvation in Christ will live in hell forever. So the question is: do all individuals that die not having salvation in Christ and ending up in hell remain in hell for ever; and the answer is no. Some are judged and some have salvation in Christ (Rev. 20:15). Post Script: The idea is that everyone must have an opportunity for salvation in Christ including the crazed-out back-woods headhunters on far away islands. But for them, they get to hang out in hell for awhile. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 25, 2019 10:00:49 GMT -6
Christ did everything that was necessary for salvation. There is no need for someone to go to hell (or whatever your term might be) and suffer or be purified. Wouldn't that be adding some sort of work to grace? Why did Jesus have to come to die in the first place then? Couldn't He be believed on without the cross? And I still haven't seen a satisfactory verse that says after you die and are judged you get a second chance at accepting Christ. As for that passage in Peter... "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, in which He [the Spirit] went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah,..." The whole of the passage is speaking of the time of Noah. Whoever these spirits are were from the days of Noah. (Not from the whole of time) Through the Spirit by the words of Noah, Christ was preached to them and they are now in prison. I think this is a very misunderstood passage. I've had a hard time with it until I went looking for an explanation (and reading it all in context...BSG you cut and pasted different passages together to make your point). (See also 1 Peter 1:10-11 concerning the prophets of OT and the Spirit of Christ) And as for 1 Peter 4:6 They were preached to and are now dead. Reading again the whole passage, it is speaking of the Gentiles who live a wild life and will give an account to Him. The gospel was preached to them, although they have now died, so that they too would have had a chance to live for Him.
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