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Post by cwood85 on Aug 20, 2019 8:06:34 GMT -6
mike, I know the Isaiah passage is used a lot in refrencing to study line up line and so fourth. Please read the rest of that passage and maybe even out loud (makes it easier to hear as a conversation, at least for me lol), because what the Lord states at the end is not an encouragement. To whom will he teach knowledge,
and to whom will he explain the message? <<<< referring to who the priest will teachThose who are weaned from the milk, those taken from the breast? 10For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little.”
11For by people of strange lips
and with a foreign tongue
the LORD will speak to this people,
12to whom he has said,
“This is rest;
give rest to the weary;
<<<The gospeland this is repose”; yet they would not hear. 13And the word of the LORD will be to them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept,
line upon line, line upon line,
here a little, there a little,
that they may go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 20, 2019 8:30:48 GMT -6
cwood85 - I dont see the Romans 14:11 in the context which you are applying it. Contextually my vantage on it is Paul speaking to other believers, brothers who were disputing certain days to observe, foods to eat etc. Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.I dont see an appreciable difference in the verses quoted from Philippians where Paul is talking about the position of Christ, not that everyone will be saved. 1 Tim where if you remove the chapter and verses you will see that he was talking about those who oppose the gospel (Hymanaeus & Alexander) transitions to those in power on earth and says to pray for them all, which would include those who oppose the gospel (and blaspheme) as God WANTS them all to be saved. It is certainly His will and desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth, but that is not equivalent to that they will come to that knowledge. Also I didnt mean that you were Calvinistic...I blew that post. My intent was that in Calvin everyone who will be saved was determined before they were born and those who are damned have no option. In my horrible effort I meant that you believe everyone would be saved at one point or another and in my mind that is similar in thought process but certainly not in doctrine. I still look forward to the other piece I asked about. I genuinely do not see it as you do and ask for understanding, not necessarily to challenge your view. Paul is quoting from Isaiah 45 in both books of the NT. There are also very similar passages in Ezekiel. 21“Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
<<<< Not hell, not ET, but shame....
25“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel Will be justified and will glory.”
I am leaving tomorrow for camping for 4 days and will return to this when we are back if I am not able to comment any further today. |
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Post by mike on Aug 20, 2019 8:31:44 GMT -6
Well dont stop there cwood85  verse 14 points it to the scornful men (priests) who were trusting in their own message and not heeding the warning of the prophets. We have to read the whole of the chapter to understand the meaning of it. However we can take the verse(s) and use them as an application elsewhere. Not that this is directly related to the discussion at hand, but I see this quite a bit lately and its concerning. Taking a verse or two out of context, placing them into a limited understanding and building a doctrine of error around it. It is happening all over the interwebs. Scripture should be interpreted one way, but can be applied in many ways. That is my point here using Isa 28. The chapter (even this is suspect due to mans adding numbering) is regarding the wicked influence of Ahaz on the priesthood who were not representing the Lord properly. Therefore the Lord cannot teach those who are still in need of milk rather those weaned, (or perhaps those weaned should teach those still on milk). So Isaiah is screaming this at them by the time we arrive at verse 13 & 14 warning them. |
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Post by Gary on Aug 21, 2019 13:56:16 GMT -6
I've shared this before, but here's my personal study on Eternal Torment vs. Conditionalism vs. Universal Reconciliation. Under point #3 I break down some concerns with UR. At one point I was actually swayed by UR, but have come to find it to be irreconcilable with Scripture, imho. I also have some major, major concerns with its main proponents (found at TentMaker.org). www.unsealed.org/2016/11/conditionalism-vs-eternal-torment-vs.htmlBlessings. |
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Post by mike on Aug 21, 2019 14:32:37 GMT -6
thanks for the reminder Gary . How do you view Rev 22:14-15 in light of conditionalism? who are those outside the city gates? |
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Post by Gary on Aug 21, 2019 14:50:05 GMT -6
That's a good question that I haven't fully chewed on yet. I find Rev. 20:11-15 to be a very powerful testament to conditionalism (hell itself - "hades"; and the unsaved dead all thrown into the Lake of Fire - "the second death"). It looks like a very clear description of God finally incinerating everything opposed to Him.
With Rev. 22, I think it's important to note the switch from narrative in v. 5 to dialogue/instructions/conclusion in v. 6-on. In light of that, vv. 14-15 are not part of the narrative, but a literal warning to those from any era who haven't yet washed their robes (in Christ's blood) to gain the right to enter New Jerusalem. Those outside the city are what we all were before we came to believe in God's Son: dogs, sexually immoral, murderers, idolaters, etc.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 21, 2019 16:40:24 GMT -6
shouldn't we all be excited to think of the possibility that the Lord can save every soul? Is that not the God News? After all, He created man, He came into the world and made atonement for the disobedience of ALL men. What makes one person less worthy than another to Follow Him? But for the record, my understanding of the Gospel is that He not only made atonement for all, but also was found worthy to take possession of all things too. So even an evil person is HIS liability. The serpent of old was cast out of Heaven, and soon will have no one to accuse anymore, which I think is what cass was saying. Once every knee bows there will be no one left to accuse...
It does not mean now a robotic worship of Him. No. that is not what this thread of the Restoration of All Things claims. When I search UR, Gary, none of it fits to the discussions found in this thread.
None of us dear, well-intentioned people can come to a 100% agreement of what the words in Revelation mean. So how do we know we are 100% correct that God is not going to be successful in restoring ALL of His creation? To even think He can not accomplish HIS WILL,,,that none shall perish but have eternal life.. btw, what is HIS WILL anyway? That it be done, on this earth, as it is in Heaven. What's been going on in heaven? Maybe He will cast out those in this present age from the Kingdom on earth, but I see it as only part of a grander picture, beyond the age we are experiencing. IS the Lak of Fire eternal through multiple ages? Is it like a marriage where it is a promised union forever, until it is not?
If no one comes to the Father except thru Jesus and He rules until ALL THINGS are under His feet (paraphrase) I take the word ALL to mean just that. What that looks like, I don't know. Who am I to be unblinded to some of the truths Of God? Did I seek it myself? Or, was I unblinded by Him which caused the desire to seek it? After all, He is beautiful fruit of which to partake, a fresh spring of Water from which to drink. Something way better than my own desire. I have tasted it, and it is good. So, why am I this way? what did I do to have this desire?
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Post by Natalie on Aug 21, 2019 17:44:53 GMT -6
I totally believe that God can save every soul. I just don't believe that everyone will choose Him. Did they choose Him in the OT when He dwelt among them? He was right there and they refused to follow Him.
I would say that you chose Him because you had been persuaded of the truth. Not like some salesman trying to sell a vacuum persuades people. More like Peter persuading his kinsman in Acts 2:37-41. Like Paul trying to persuade Agrippa - Acts 26:28 Like Ephesians 1:13-14 - You heard and believed.
Some refuse to believe the truth. They would rather believe a lie. And so they will perish in their sin. And those who have never heard that Jesus is the only way? I believe that there will be justice, grace, and mercy. What that looks like, I don't know but Romans tells us that people are without excuse. Rom 1:20
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Post by mike on Aug 21, 2019 19:30:36 GMT -6
Not that others aren't welcome to share their thoughts, but Cwood was responding to some questions I had about her view on this topic, some of which have yet to be reasonably answered. But her family time is more important than my questions One of those questions was if everyone will be saved (eventually) why should ant of us share the gospel with any type of urgency or withstand any persecution? Why not renounce my faith if threatened by a Muslim extremist when in the end, I am saved? Why not eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, if we end up with Him eventually? I am trying to understand this view but these questions make the gospel message watered down to me. BSG you asked is the Lake of Fire eternal through all ages. I ask if it isn't then is our eternity with Christ the same through all ages? If the Word eternity doesn't mean forever then it applies no matter where we see it in scripture, doesn't it? |
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Post by mike on Aug 21, 2019 19:39:44 GMT -6
Chew away Gary. I view the verse as possibly supporting Restoration or even hell. Those outside the city would undoubtedly be weeping and gnashing their teeth |
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Post by mike on Aug 21, 2019 20:21:08 GMT -6
Another thought on blinding and unblinding in which I tend to agree with Natalie's statement. We either play a role in choice or God chooses everything for us. If God choose to blind one without the person having a choice He would not be just for that person has zero opportunity to love or express love. Since God is love, it would be against who He is (imo).
I will not do this justice but hopefully we can understand the concept of what I had heard from Ravi Z. I may have posted the video somewhere too, not sure. In short God was limited in what He would create in the following:
*He could've chisen No creation, nothing. No one, no sin, no redemption
*A creation with no such thing as good or evil - Amoral world where we would know neither
*a creation where the only choice to make would be good, all the time every time, which is really no choice at all
*Create this world we where we can choose good or evil. Free moral agents where we are able to express love or not. This is the only of the 4 possibilities where love can be possible.
Without this choice we would not know His love for us
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 22, 2019 9:02:22 GMT -6
the constant question that comes to me is "Why evangelize if all make it anyway?"
I respond, because Jesus commanded it before His ascension..
We are not given a command to get people saved. We are told to share the gospel and make disciples.
Mat 28:18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
What is the message here? With all power and authority, Christ, the one risen from the Dead gives His disciples and followers their final instructions before leaving -
Teach them, what I taught you. FOLLOW Him, He has all authority! To follow your own desires/authority or the lies even of the devil, you are walking in darkness.
But it is God that Saves, not your words. In other words, God Saves, we spread the Good News, as people believe we teach..
God is not at war or an enemy of man, where man needs to make peace with God. Nope, God Loves us first! I know I have heard this from curbside evangelists. They have yelled at me as I walk by, Jesus LOVES you! and in that day in my life I shrunk back in shame. I hid my face as I walked by with my friends, tho smiled because I knew it was true. I was in my early 30's been a Christian my whole life, being good as I could be, knowing right from wrong. Believing the Cross, but I had bad behaviours, and I knew it. That word from curb guy still caused me to shrink back in shame though..I had never been taught about His Love.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1Jn 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.
2Co 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
I changed my mind about it means to believe and focus on the what it means to FOLLOW. Anyone can believe and agree with a fact, but are they following that fact in faith? This was never taught to my ears for nearly my entire Christian life. I was never taught how to Hear the Lord in my life, to guide me and that He could lead me from temptation. I was also never taught WHO God is, or what is His character. One thing for sure is that He has a plan, regardless of my will.
With that, in sharing the Gospel we should simply say, Because it is not God's plan that any should perish, He is implementing a plan that will result in everyone being welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven eventually. It is God's job to get everyone to heaven. It is our job to tell people that God has a plan for doing His job and that much of it was accomplished on the Cross.
yet many say "But doesn't that mean I have to be good? If I'm going to go to heaven anyway, then I'll just do what I want now and go to heaven when I die."
Ok. If that's the way you want to do it. But as for me, I can't help but want to become more and more like Jesus. Because I see who He is and how Beautiful He is. And I see what He has done for me and I just want to show Him how grateful I am. We will both end up in heaven. But I can walk in freedom right now. And I have an opportunity to be part of a better resurrection. In time, I expect that if you actually believe God is Who He says He Is and did what He said He did, you will want to Follow Him so things can be changed for GOOD in your life. God will work to finish what He started in you. Either way, God will make sure you end up in His arms.
I have faith that He can reach every single soul. But if He doesn't, well, I soon will understand why. I see more and more evidence that the Death and the FP will be the only thing left when the souls are healed.
I have no idea whose path is set in front of me, nor do I know the guilt (the cross) a person has bearing down on their heart for the things they have done. It is written in their heart these laws and ways of God, but have no idea what to do with this conviction. Yet religion, christian religion has darkened their heart because they are blind/hiding themselves about the power of the Lord & the Holy Spirit. Blind because they are focused on their pathetic self, which many denominations point out. They have no hope for they sort of believe yet continue meandering in their dark world of self-inflicted condemnation for they do not understand the truth of what Jesus did for the world. This was me even while growing up Christian.
The GOOD NEWS is Jesus has overcome this world! I said this to a gal who had had it with the Christian pride of going to heaven as she did not believe the same way, felt condemned to hell and didn't care. She wasn't going to church, nor cared to read the Bible and mostly thought Christianity was an elite form of religion. She felt there is a God, but she had resentment that she believed Jesus was all they say He is, but she had huge stumbling blocks to FOLLOWING Him.
She also was mired down in all the other things man has done to undermine God as anything. She was following lies about the universe and the planet. I told her that it seems to me that if she died later today that she would see Jesus and I told her why: HE has the keys to death and Hades. He was the only one found worthy in heaven and one earth above and below. I said through HIM the world is saved, just like thru Adam the world was condemned. It is something that she had no control over.
I suggested she call out to Jesus so as to understand what His plan was for her. Reason being is the world is becoming more and more deceived and ugly. But IN HIM is truth and light! But I tell you, when I told her I have faith she will see Jesus if she died before fully knowing Him, her expression changed. I asked her, when you die will you RUN to Him, or HIDE from Him? I told her I have no idea what He does with her after death. I am not the judge of her heart. He is the judge. The shame people have toward being in front of the Lord is HUGE! The shame because it is written on their hearts about the almighty. Shame results from being self-centered on your desire to determine what is truth or a lie. Many follow lies because it is desireable, it feels great, it attempts to hide your imperfections, your nakedness from God. This is the same behaviour that happened in the Garden. I told her that the days of shame are over when you follow Him! He will cloth this shame for you.
Now I ask, who does not deserve this message? and, I am not responsible for how she received this news. I just reassured her what the CROSS did for mankind. in that moment she, the accused, stood there as unaccused.
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2019 9:29:38 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl - still doesnt answer the issue, why? The way I read what you presented is that "all dogs go to heaven" whether you worship self, Buddha, Mohammed, Satan or Jesus, it ultimately doesnt matter in the end. What purpose does sharing the good news with someone who will refuse it or dismiss it (and die in their sin)? This matters to me & you who have understood how good God is to us, but that comes with a heart that has been softened, study and time spent worshipping Him. But look around us, there are far too many who reject Him, worship false gods, demons and self. Have you ever shared with someone who really had no idea what it was all about, and as a part of that discussion comes the question "will I go to hell if I dont believe"? In your scenario the answer is "no". (please interchange hell and the lake of fire for the purpose of this discussion as someone with no clue wouldnt understand the difference). If the answer to that person is "nope you go to heaven no matter what you believe or what you place your faith in", isnt that defeating the purpose of sharing the gospel? Its like convincing an Eskimo they need to buy ice
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Post by mike on Aug 22, 2019 9:45:52 GMT -6
Also BSG - maybe start a new thread on this 'better resurrection'. I'd like to hear what you mean by this
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Post by stormyknight on Aug 22, 2019 11:36:15 GMT -6
Wow, this thread goes back before my time here, as does your article, Gary . I've been trying to speed read. One thing in referring to your question earlier, mike , about Rev. 22:15, 'who are those outside the city gates?'. I think this weighs heavily on the fact that God gave us free will and there will be those who will stubbornly refuse to change their minds in light of all the evidence presented. Consider satan. Didn't he know what was going on with God's plan, yet he still thought he would be better at it? The most merciful thing to do is to cease the existence of those souls. No pain. No suffering. Well, maybe for a while(Matt. 24:51, Matt. 25:30, Matt. 23:13(Matthew seemed to like that phrase))just before God hits the reset button. Rev. 21:1 It is my hope that that number will be small, but, as shown by scripture, there will be some who refuse God's way. Some people are just hard headed, huh? |
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