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Post by mike on Aug 17, 2019 15:21:26 GMT -6
Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things.
First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have.
I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit
A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view.
My question to you or others is
1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire?
Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe.
2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and expirences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified?
I may have others to ask but think I should pause here
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Post by boraddict on Aug 17, 2019 22:47:41 GMT -6
It seems that we are in heaven right now. Are we not with Christ and he with us? Since Christ is in heaven and he is with us then we are also in heaven.
Yet, we are in mortality but with Christ. Is he not our God to whom we belong? Again, since Christ is in heaven and we are with Christ then we are in heaven as well.
It is not necessary for us to go to the grave and come forth again to be with Christ. We are with him now.
Lord Jesus knows us and considers our wants and desires. If we claim his love and protection then what more is there in heaven. We are secure in the knowledge of his divine power over all things and what more is there in heaven? Wealth? No. Power? No. Peace? Yes. There is peace in heaven and that is our heaven upon this earth. Peace to you in Christ and our heaven is achieved.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 17, 2019 23:57:31 GMT -6
Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things. First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have. I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view. My question to you or others is 1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire? For an answer to the atheist rejecting Christ, we need to ask why are they rejecting this?
A) are they being told the gospel and then immediately told the consequences of not believing is eternal torment? That God really loves you, but if you do not make the right choice right now or hold the right beliefs, you will go to hell. I DONT care how that is sugar coated, that’s not good news, that’s a threat.
B) they possibly grew up in an extreme religious environment, like maybe a very legalistic or works based church. Maybe their experiences with Christianity was very judgmental or filled with hate. Look at how many groups of Christians stand on the sidelines of a pride parade holding signs that say God hates fags or homosexuals will burn in Hell! How pleasant and so encouraging for someone to hear and believe the gospel. 🤦🏼♀️
C) they were possibly abused, controlled or emotionally terrorized and manipulated all in the name of God by their abuser. That happens a lot unfortunately...
and maybe non of the above happened at all and the person just refuses to believe. Do we have so little faith in God that when the time comes to rise and He reveals his love to it fullest, that a person would still refuse? That He could not accomplish this? I have had a counter argument to this before with the Jews refusing to believe Jesus was the Messiah even with him there in person. Did they really fully refuse all at their own free will or were they in part blinded and deafened by God to not full understand. For example the parables Jesus gave and spoke of. He explained to the disciples he spoke this way because they were not meant to understand at that time. So their unbelief was not solely their choice because God didn’t allow them to understand and it wasn’t meant for all of them to believe. Jesus also wasn’t the savior they were looking for either. They basically wanted a warlord and instead had a peaceful loving servant. Here’s how I view the lake of fire, as a form of judgement. I like parent/ child analogies because well God is our father, our creator and knows what’s best for us even when we don’t realize it or want it. And that doesn’t make someone a robot.
Veggies are good for kids and they need them in their diet. What if your kid refuses veggies, hates them so much and screams and cries when it is time to eat them? They need them to grow big and strong and being the parent you know what is good for them. They don’t because they don’t have the knowledge and live very much so in the moment. Their choices are based on how they feel right at that moment. So as a parent what do you do? Sadly sit there and feel disappointed that they refused and would not accept your offer and efforts to better them and make sure they are healthy and live a long life? Let the will of a 5 year old supersede your own? Give them free will to make their own choices on what is best for them to eat? No a good parent would enact their judgement until the kid ate their veggies. This could be in various forms, eat your veggies or go to your room for a time out. Eat your veggies or no dessert or goodies for a month! Maybe you try everything and still no avail your kid spits them out. You can’t force the veggies down their throat because that is cruel and abusive, but being the parent and having far more knowledge and wisdom than they do, you do whatever you can. Grind them up and put them in a burger, buy veggie pasta noodles instead of regular ones, make smoothies and throw in some carrots and spinach. You don’t give up and find a way to accomplish it. As a parent it is your will that they eat healthy to better them for the rest of their life. It is your desire that they like their veggies and gladly eat them, but not all do. Some are really stubborn little buggers and it takes different forms of discipline and action to enforce and see your will through and accomplished. Why is this so important? Because the parents will is better for the child’s than the child’s will due to their lack of knowledge of what is really good or bad for them. Is the parent forcing the child to do something they don’t like? Yep, but with love, guidance, and chastisement to correct the child’s decisions and to educate them. Would a parent disown their child for refusing and not accepting the parents offer of veggies for longer life and better health or dump gasoline on them and toss in a lit match? I know that is rather extreme, but that’s what we think our creator, savior and father of all fathers would do to us all based on a really bad choice!
Put a cookie in front of the child and 100% of the time they are going to choose that over a stick of celery. They don’t have a full understanding of the good for the long run, only what taste and feels good in that moment and their own concept of time.
Gods will is to do what is best for his creation and reconcile it to him. His plan is to make that happen and to be complete/accomplished. He says his will will be done and nothing can stop him. His judgement is not for destruction just like a loving parents is not. I would assume He is probably WAY better at being a parent then we are.I have more to say, but am out of time for tonight and will add more tomorrow. Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe. 2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and expirences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified? I may have others to ask but think I should pause here No arguments here and I will try to answer the best I can ☺️ I respect other peoples views and do not think badly of them or as with what I think or believe is better. I get these questions a lot and 99.9% of everyone here is very respectful of some of very different things I post or comment with. I cannot say that happens very much outside this forum. If you say there isn’t a Hell in other parts of the internet it usually results in being called a heretic or demonic lol 🤷♀️ |
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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2019 7:42:50 GMT -6
Cwood could I consider your view somewhat Calvinistic in that those who are blind have no choice? Although this would be slightly different in view that even though they've no choice they will get one at some point?
When you have time I am interested in replies to my other questions about "purification" of those who die in unbelief and those saved a day or lifetime
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 18, 2019 9:53:23 GMT -6
Cwood could I consider your view somewhat Calvinistic in that those who are blind have no choice? Although this would be slightly different in view that even though they've no choice they will get one at some point? When you have time I am interested in replies to my other questions about "purification" of those who die in unbelief and those saved a day or lifetime No not Calvinism because the idea of it literally makes me ill. God would create some to save and some to destroy or torment for forever? From the foundation of the world? How is that any different than genocide or abortion? I believe salvation in the means of sins forgiven is complete for all of humanity and that was done on the cross and there isn’t a thing anymore can do to overturn that or invalidate it. Not a choice, not a mark, not the most evil of sin of all time, because that would mean our choice or a mark or a sin is bigger and more powerful than God and His abilities. I will comment more on your other questions shortly  |
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Post by mike on Aug 18, 2019 11:09:51 GMT -6
Thank you. Take your time. I'm about to work in the yard where it's in the low 90's and very humid. If I don't turn to salt before sundown, I'll check back this evening 😂
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 19, 2019 9:25:46 GMT -6
Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things. First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have. I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view. My question to you or others is 1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire?Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe. 2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and expirences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified? I may have others to ask but think I should pause here Quoting you here just to answer this specific bolded part in your post I know this is brought up a lot and it is always based on our free will, being in control by making our own choice, not being a robot and so fourth. But it's not what scripture says will happen... and it's almost like we ignore these verses or do mental somersaults to make them mean something they clearly do not. Not anyone specifically, but saying that in a generalized way. This is said three times in the bible, which I guess means it probably pretty important and something we need to really meditate on: "For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD." Romans 14:11
"By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will confess allegiance." Isaiah 45:23
"9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Philippians 2:9-11
Seems pretty straightforward as to what everyone is going to do, and not out of force, but genuine coming to the knowledge and acceptance. There is also this which is from one of my favorite books of the bible. There are many more beyond these verses both from the old and the new testaments. "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4
Every Knee will bow + Every tongue will confess that Christ is Lord + All men to be saved + come to the knowledge of the truth =  ??
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Post by mike on Aug 19, 2019 12:39:59 GMT -6
cwood85 - I dont see the Romans 14:11 in the context which you are applying it. Contextually my vantage on it is Paul speaking to other believers, brothers who were disputing certain days to observe, foods to eat etc. Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. 8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.I dont see an appreciable difference in the verses quoted from Philippians where Paul is talking about the position of Christ, not that everyone will be saved. 1 Tim where if you remove the chapter and verses you will see that he was talking about those who oppose the gospel (Hymanaeus & Alexander) transitions to those in power on earth and says to pray for them all, which would include those who oppose the gospel (and blaspheme) as God WANTS them all to be saved. It is certainly His will and desire that all come to the knowledge of the truth, but that is not equivalent to that they will come to that knowledge. Also I didnt mean that you were Calvinistic...I blew that post. My intent was that in Calvin everyone who will be saved was determined before they were born and those who are damned have no option. In my horrible effort I meant that you believe everyone would be saved at one point or another and in my mind that is similar in thought process but certainly not in doctrine. I still look forward to the other piece I asked about. I genuinely do not see it as you do and ask for understanding, not necessarily to challenge your view.
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 19, 2019 13:56:21 GMT -6
Jumping from the "mark" thread here. I have a question or two about restoring all things. First I will reiterate, I do not wish to argue so please understand why I ask the questions I have. I respect this view on scripture and while I don't agree (at least yet) I see where the argument can be made for it. So please understand I am not challenging this view rather trying to understand it more as there are some applications where I don't see it fit A few weeks back BSG posted something about how a non-believer would not have benefits of reading Greek or understanding things could be translated better. Please keep that in mind as the questions I ask are from a non-believer or atheitstuc view. My question to you or others is 1. I view Heaven as being with Jesus for eternity. He is the desire I/we have. A place without time dwelling with the Savior and His Father. If one does not want to accept Christ as Savior as some atheists state, why would the Lord force one to be with Him for eternity at some eventual point? Even if after purification in the Lake of Fire? Part b to this - why don't we who believe need further purification too? If on a deathbed someone received Christ, changing their heart and mind about who He is - why shouldn't that person experience some type of "time" being purified too? I suppose this would apply to everyone who believes regardless of how long they may believe.Everyone needs refinement at one point or another in their life. If everyone however has received salvation, it wouldn't matter when someone believes or not. Now this is not to say to go sin all you want and be merry about it! Which Paul clarified this because that is crucifying Christ over and over again. Our actions still have consequences and for many, earthly consequences. What are the consequences with God in this regard? His wrath correction and chastisement. The wages of sin is death. But there are a couple of important factors that needs to be looked at here. In the way things are laid out in Revelation, death and hades, Satan and false prophet are thrown in the lake of fire before any humans are.
Hades (grave, realm of the dead) + Death go into the lake of fire and exist no more. So death and the grave are long gone.
Than we have these sorts of people going in after death and hades: "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their PART will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
I capitalized the word part here because this is the Greek word and its definition: Meros: a part, share, portion. A part of these people go into the Lake of fire, not their entirety as a human being? What part of them? Looks like the very sinful and wicked part of them.
2. I love the Lord and believe in Him and share my faith and experiences with people. But if the Lord will save all, why urge being saved now as opposed to waiting until after they pass or He returns? Why not indulge in the flesh, maybe die sooner to be rid of this world then be purified?
I think I may have answered this partially above but will come back this evening to finish it. I may have others to ask but think I should pause here |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 19, 2019 14:39:07 GMT -6
I have to disagree here... it's not that part of the person goes into the lake of fire, it is more that it is their destination, their share, their portion.
Like... My kids have a part in the Christmas play. They have their share of lines, their portion to perform.
Like ... When my parents pass away, I get my part in their estate. I have a portion I will receive.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 19, 2019 14:54:55 GMT -6
I don't disagree that people need purifying. I would say that part of that process is sanctification and then our perfection when the mortal puts on immortality. I think the judgment seat of Christ takes part in it, too.
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Post by mike on Aug 19, 2019 14:55:00 GMT -6
cwood85, are you saying the sinful part gets separated from the humanity 'part' and thrown into the Lake of Fire and the humanity part goes where?? Can you support that view scripturally as well if I am interpreting what you said properly??
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 19, 2019 16:08:09 GMT -6
cwood85 , are you saying the sinful part gets separated from the humanity 'part' and thrown into the Lake of Fire and the humanity part goes where?? Can you support that view scripturally as well if I am interpreting what you said properly?? Definitely not saying it as fact or I know and that’s what the question mark is for lol. But my point that I am trying to get out of my head which is easier said than done sometimes, is the text is listing behaviors and sin that all of us are guilty of. It doesn’t just say unbelievers going into the lake of fire, which is what is preached in most churches. Accept Jesus as your savior and avoid hell, correct? But the verse does list off of a lot of sinful behaviors. It doesn’t say unbelievers who do these sinful things, but unbelievers and those in addition who do these things of the list of other behaviors and sin. It also says all liars and that is the only sin with the word all in front of it. What if you came to the understanding and belief that Jesus is your savior but were formicating in an unmarried relationship? Or were a homosexual and struggling with leaving your partner and not being attracted to the same sex? Those things are considered sexual immorality. Would you go to the lake of fire as viewed and taught by many as hell if you died will possibly falling off the wagon? We have all played a part in sin. We don’t sin all day long non stop, but we do take a part in sinful behaviors. |
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Post by Natalie on Aug 19, 2019 17:36:04 GMT -6
Once your have put your faith in Christ for salvation, you are covered with His righteousness. You can be struggling with sin all the time, but you are covered by His blood. You are no longer considered a liar, or sexually immoral or whatever you were before. You are dressed in His righteousness and would have no place in the lake of fire. It is by grace alone and our sins and works will not change our salvation.
1 Cor 6:9-11
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Post by mike on Aug 20, 2019 5:38:10 GMT -6
cwood85 , are you saying the sinful part gets separated from the humanity 'part' and thrown into the Lake of Fire and the humanity part goes where?? Can you support that view scripturally as well if I am interpreting what you said properly?? Definitely not saying it as fact or I know and that’s what the question mark is for lol. But my point that I am trying to get out of my head which is easier said than done sometimes, is the text is listing behaviors and sin that all of us are guilty of. Getting things out of my head onto the screen is tough, agree. I have difficulty at times getting it out of my mouth too
We all can be and are guilty of all these sins as James points out (Jas 2:10)It doesn’t just say unbelievers going into the lake of fire, which is what is preached in most churches. Accept Jesus as your savior and avoid hell, correct? Well the Word does say this in Rev 20:15, Luke 10:20, Psa 69:28, Dan 12:1-2 among others. Remember line upon line, here a little, there a little (Isa 28:13) But the verse does list off of a lot of sinful behaviors. It doesn’t say unbelievers who do these sinful things, but unbelievers and those in addition who do these things of the list of other behaviors and sin. It also says all liars and that is the only sin with the word all in front of it. However this is talking about the second resurrection not the first. Believers partake in the first to everlasting life, the second to everlasting shame.What if you came to the understanding and belief that Jesus is your savior but were fornicating in an unmarried relationship? I was and made it right Or were a homosexual and struggling with leaving your partner and not being attracted to the same sex? I heard (the great) Ravi Zacharais speak about a brother in Christ regarding this. In short, this brother chose to believe God's Word about what is right and wrong and decided to not pursue ungodly relations despite his attraction to them (men). Those things are considered sexual immorality. Would you go to the lake of fire as viewed and taught by many as hell if you died will possibly falling off the wagon? We have all played a part in sin. We don’t sin all day long non stop, but we do take a part in sinful behaviors. I think John does a great job helping us understand this in 1 John (really the whole epistle, but chapter 3 nails it) we are believers desire to please Him. Although we fail daily, we still have that desire because He placed His spirit within us and we have that 'ability' to overcome sin. Think about how Paul put it in Romans 7 and compare that to this example. We watch birds fly and they overcome gravity by doing so. Gravity isnt gone, its still present but they are able to overcome gravity through lift. The law of gravity is overcome by the law of lift. Those who refuse the message of the gospel and do not change their minds about the way they see the world (repent) are bound to gravity and do not have access to lift |
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