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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2018 23:13:46 GMT -6
Hey everyone. I am new to this forum. My name is jonathan smith from leeds. I am technical content writer.
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Post by boraddict on Jul 26, 2018 1:32:09 GMT -6
Hey everyone. I am new to this forum. My name is jonathan smith from leeds. I am technical content writer. Hi Jonathan, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of unique talent here so sit back and enjoy the ride.
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Post by rt on Jul 26, 2018 13:21:37 GMT -6
As far as the restrainer goes, I would say that what restrains lawlessness is the law.
What is the law? Jesus tells us here what it is.
Here later John tells us:
Love- ultimately is at the heart of the law, and we have the love of God poured out in our hearts,
So who were the lawyers and who are they now? In other words who were and are the law keepers and enforcers?
In the OT they were the high priests, and the priesthood in general. But when Christ died He superseded the earthly priesthood of Israel and became the perfect High Priest. Christ is the head of the church, who is functionally His body on earth. We carry out activity in line with the law as a kingdom of priests under our High Priest.
The law of God has been written onto the spiritual heart of those who believe:
The Church, AKA the Body of Christ are the law bearers of this dispensation. We are the light that dispels darkness:
What restrains lawlessness then is the church itself, those who make up the body of Christ on earth today during this era of grace.
The church will be removed from restraining, and then the job of restraining will be given back to the nation of Israel, via their salvation through Christ under the New Covenant. Though there will be a delay in this hand-off, while the 70th week plays out and Israel is refined and the 144.000 are sealed.
It is not the Holy Spirit Himself, but rather the Body of Christ acting in the power of the Holy Spirit that acts as restrainer. We are the law holders, we keep darkness at bay by shining forth the light of Christ in us. When we are removed, then the darkness will rush in, until a new light is lit and the true light of Jesus Himself banishes darkness to its holding place for 1000 years.
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Post by venge on Jul 26, 2018 14:41:00 GMT -6
As far as the restrainer goes, I would say that what restrains lawlessness is the law. The church will be removed from restraining, and then the job of restraining will be given back to the nation of Israel, via their salvation through Christ under the New Covenant. Though there will be a delay in this hand-off, while the 70th week plays out and Israel is refined and the 144.000 are sealed. It is not the Holy Spirit Himself, but rather the Body of Christ acting in the power of the Holy Spirit that acts as restrainer. We are the law holders, we keep darkness at bay by shining forth the light of Christ in us. When we are removed, then the darkness will rush in, until a new light is lit and the true light of Jesus Himself banishes darkness to its holding place for 1000 years. I enjoyed reading your example but I disagree that its the church which is plural or a body of believers which is plural. Look at the text: It is 1 person or 1 being. One specific. So the question is, if one keeps down lawlessness even now...who is he, that keeps down lawlessness, from being the only thing left in the world? Who is he that must be removed? A sheriff keeps lawlessness down. An Officer keeps lawlessness down. A Judge keeps Lawlessness down. Who is our Judge? What is opposite Lawlessness but righteousness? Who is our righteous judge? This is why I interpret it like: They choose their own way instead of his allowing lawlessness to be their choice of life.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jul 26, 2018 16:07:10 GMT -6
Ephesians 4:4 KJVS [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
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Post by venge on Jul 26, 2018 17:38:41 GMT -6
Ephesians 4:4 KJVS [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; If it is the Holy spirit, and the HS must be taken out of the way, how do you explain the 144k sealed with the HS? The Holy Spirit cannot be removed when one is sealed with it. The angels are told not to hurt the trees or grass till they are sealed and a sealing is the Holy Spirit. Not having the Holy spirit and being sealed is being sealed with the mark of the beast, the mark of iniquity. For Pre Tribbers, how do you explain the HS being "removed" if some of you believe in those "left behind" that they will be saved? They need the Holy Spirit to be sealed to be saved and therefore it cannot be removed. For those that arnt Pre Trib, they already believe that Christians will undergo tribulation and therefore the Holy Spirit still is not removed.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jul 26, 2018 18:21:36 GMT -6
I wasn’t implying any of that, only about the he being singular thing. The body is a singular body made of many. I kind of agree with you on a lot of that though. Great study guys, keep it comin.
i don’t adhere to any of these dispensations either.
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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2018 8:28:44 GMT -6
I wasn’t implying any of that, only about the he being singular thing. The body is a singular body made of many. I kind of agree with you on a lot of that though. Great study guys, keep it comin. i don’t adhere to any of these dispensations either. Oh! From what you wrote, I assumed that was your position and I was trying to understand it thru scripture but had a hard time. Now I understand.
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Post by rt on Jul 27, 2018 15:47:48 GMT -6
Well I almost agree with you, except that I see the "He" as a "We", as in the body of Christ, a singular body, also known as the church.
consider the following:
When Saul encountered Jesus as he traveled to Damascus, Jesus spoke to Him, he didn't ask Saul why he persecuted His followers, NO! He said why are you persecuting Me? And in reply to Saul's question of who this was speaking to him, Jesus reiterates that it is He, Jesus, that Saul persecutes.
Paul says the following in Romans
We who are many, are one in Christ.
and again here:
many members but ONE body.
Here also: Christ is the head of the church who is His body who He is savior of.
In 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 we read the following:
The restrainer is identified as a "what" in verse 6 and as a "He" in verse 7. This restrainer holds back the timing of when the lawless one will be revealed, and it also restrains lawlessness which is at work until it is removed from restraining.
I find no other force under the new covenant able to restrain lawlessness but the church, the body of Christ
We stand firm against the schemes of evil forces, against lawlessness. It doesn't get much plainer than that. By standing firm against something we restrain it don't we? As we stand firm in the power of Christ (His might) , in God's Armor- we restrain the forces of lawlessness.
The Body of Christ is removed from restraining lawlessness which allows the lawless one to come forth.
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Post by venge on Jul 27, 2018 17:11:43 GMT -6
Excellent response. This is true as the Bible says that we can say to this mountain move from here to there and it will move. But, once Christ died and rose and then ascended almost 2000 years ago, it had began. It is an excellent response. What I mean by that is that the restraining had to begin after his work was done and he ascended the restraining had to begin for his believers. That is according to you. But how does the body of Christ restrain it after he is off the face of the earth almost 2000 years ago in the small area around Jerusalem before they spread out? How does the body of Christ back then re-strain it through all the parts of the world where people were in yet the body of Christ was not? Even today, parts of the world that a remote that have never heard of Christ, what restrains things there if there are not believers there? It could only be Christ. Not the body of Christ but Christ himself.
For it is true that Christ dwells within us. But Christ is also the son of God. It is he who receives power and authority, not us. It is with power and authority that he is allowed to restrain. For even the body of believers back then could not remove a demon when they tried because they lack prayer and fasting. They lack the experience. The same experience sadly the majority of the church in my opinion has today. If we were able to see everyone on the face of the earth that believes in Christ and then we were able to see those same people and find out who actually lives for Christ what would the number B? For those that might believe yet don’t live for him, Are they capable of restraining if they can’t even cast out demons?
Yet Christ the rightful heir the judge the king. He is capable of leading and he is capable of restraining.
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jul 27, 2018 18:03:34 GMT -6
Now that this dialogue has gotten this far, I have to ask this; if Christ is the He who is removed, then how is He removed? What does that look like on earth? I’m having a hard time understanding how He can be removed but not the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t that practically be the same thing?
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Post by rt on Jul 27, 2018 18:39:39 GMT -6
Now that this dialogue has gotten this far, I have to ask this; if Christ is the He who is removed, then how is He removed? What does that look like on earth? I’m having a hard time understanding how He can be removed but not the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t that practically be the same thing? He (Jesus) Looks like us- we are His body. There was a time under the old covenant when the Holy Spirit worked upon the earth yet Christ was not present. Here are some examples There are many more, but this should suffice to prove my point. We are unique in that we are considered His body. This is a distinction given to believers under the new covenant. Christ is "removed" when we are raptured, We the body, will join our Head when we are gathered to meet Him in the air. The Holy Spirit can work on earth apart from the physical presence of Christ or His body.
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Post by rt on Jul 27, 2018 19:30:58 GMT -6
Excellent response. This is true as the Bible says that we can say to this mountain move from here to there and it will move. But, once Christ died and rose and then ascended almost 2000 years ago, it had began. It is an excellent response. What I mean by that is that the restraining had to begin after his work was done and he ascended the restraining had to begin for his believers. That is according to you. But how does the body of Christ restrain it after he is off the face of the earth almost 2000 years ago in the small area around Jerusalem before they spread out? How does the body of Christ back then re-strain it through all the parts of the world where people were in yet the body of Christ was not? Even today, parts of the world that a remote that have never heard of Christ, what restrains things there if there are not believers there? It could only be Christ. Not the body of Christ but Christ himself. For it is true that Christ dwells within us. But Christ is also the son of God. It is he who receives power and authority, not us. It is with power and authority that he is allowed to restrain. For even the body of believers back then could not remove a demon when they tried because they lack prayer and fasting. They lack the experience. The same experience sadly the majority of the church in my opinion has today. If we were able to see everyone on the face of the earth that believes in Christ and then we were able to see those same people and find out who actually lives for Christ what would the number B? For those that might believe yet don’t live for him, Are they capable of restraining if they can’t even cast out demons? Yet Christ the rightful heir the judge the king. He is capable of leading and he is capable of restraining. As I mentioned, lawlessness is restrained by the law, God's law. Before the church there was the nation of Israel, they were the keepers of the law. God worked through them to demonstrate His power to the nations that surrounded them. There were and still may be places on earth where lawlessness goes unchecked, because God's law has not reached some places on earth. In fact I would suggest that those places on earth today where God's people are scarce are places where there is in fact more lawlessness. Just read the news and you will find this is the case. God chose to use people to be the means to spread His word, His law to other people. Yes He could restrain evil with one word and one day He will. But for now He uses us. Sometimes we succeed greatly and other times not so much. Evil has not ever been completely restrained on earth since Satan fell and deceived mankind. We are a light that shines in the darkness, where we go darkness recedes, we keep the lawless one from being revealed because we would call him out for what he is...a fraud. But when we are removed from this earth one day, then darkness will flood in to take our place for a time so that God's plan can be accomplished and His word fulfilled. as for authority: Christ is the head of the church, we are subject to His authority, but we (the vessels containing His fullness) are His feet that carry out what He dictates. Paul goes on to tell the Ephesians that we have been raised together with Christ, made alive and are seated with Him in the heavenly places: We share in His authority, because He chooses to allow us to do so. Paul speaks about the authority he was given As believers we have divine weaponry to destroy every thing raised up against the knowledge of God (His word/law) if that isn't authority over darkness then what is? These weapons destroy by divine power the fortresses of evil (every thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God). We bear these spiritual weapons. The disciples did cast out demons and healed people, this passage doesn't say that lacked the authority to cast out this demon, rather it says that to do so they must pray and fast, the implication is that if they had done so then they could have By whose authority did they do these things? Not by their own, but by the authority of Christ that was given to them. It is the same with us today, we have been given the divine ability to conduct spiritual warfare against the spiritual forces of wickedness. Our defensive weapon is the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God! (AKA His law)
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Post by rt on Jul 27, 2018 19:45:00 GMT -6
Just want to add:
With all this being said I think it is true, that many in the church do not understand the power we have to affect our world for God and His Glory. We don't shine our light in such a way that those in the world glorify God. We don't wield our spiritual weapons of warfare and we often fail to put God's armor to use in our lives. Prayer.... is sorely lacking. The war cries of God's people are a mere whisper.
We should not underestimate what we are capable of in Christ!
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Post by venge on Jul 28, 2018 10:41:16 GMT -6
Now that this dialogue has gotten this far, I have to ask this; if Christ is the He who is removed, then how is He removed? What does that look like on earth? I’m having a hard time understanding how He can be removed but not the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t that practically be the same thing? He is removed by the falling away. Which must precede the day of the Lord. The Holy Spirit can work on a man but will not be in a man that does not have faith. Man's removal of Christ from the world is man's own fault. Man already changes God's laws in the world but we are still able to pray and worship and minister in parts of the world. What happens when we are killed for praying? What happens when we are killed for worship to God alone? That is removal of Christ. When there is a ban on prayer and ban on worship. Do you remember what Daniel's daily was? He did it since he was a kid and always followed it no matter what. In Daniel 6:12, we see that a decree went out if Daniel would pray to God, he would be killed. In verses 10-11 we see Daniel go to pray before God and is found doing so therefore breaking the king's decree and therefore having to slay Daniel. and finally in Daniel 11:31 we see again that it will happen as it happened before. Prayer will be taken and banned by death. Christ is our sanctuary of strength, our rock and our fortress. They will pollute it removing him from us and removing worship of him. That is removing Christ from our lives.
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