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Post by grandpaskitzo on Jul 28, 2018 12:09:09 GMT -6
I get it now. Thanks! The great escape looked for by many may not be how they think it’s going to be. Even in death we escape destruction; I pray and hope all truly contemplate this and prepare for another possibility of ‘escape’.
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Post by venge on Jul 28, 2018 15:07:55 GMT -6
I get it now. Thanks! The great escape looked for by many may not be how they think it’s going to be. Even in death we escape destruction; I pray and hope all truly contemplate this and prepare for another possibility of ‘escape’. Well, this is one possibility. It is the one I hold to currently.
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Post by davewatchman on Jul 28, 2018 16:10:47 GMT -6
Now that this dialogue has gotten this far, I have to ask this; if Christ is the He who is removed, then how is He removed? I'm sure that the Father has fixed a day for it. Jesus can't remove Himself. He has to be taken out of the way. This is the time that no one can know the day or the hour of, only the Father. What does that look like on earth? Probably a lot like it's looking right now. But my guess would be that a third of the earth will be burnt up, and all the green grass. I’m having a hard time understanding how He can be removed but not the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t that practically be the same thing? Jesus said He will never leave us. "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
"On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.So i don't think it's about Jesus being physically taken away from us, but is about the function that He is doing as humanities intercessor being taken away. I think Paul's talking about Daniel 8: "And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression,and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper.
So what i think Paul's talking about is drawing from Daniel 8, where the stern faced king rises up to the place of His Sanctuary and takes away the "daily" by reason of transgression which is the same as the falling away. I think our Restrainer is Jesus and how He is restraining the man of sin is also how He is holding back God's wrath on the planet that was due since the day in the garden that Adam sinned. And the way that all this is being accomplished is by a service that Jesus is doing at the alter of incense in Heaven's Temple that Daniel calls the "daily" or the "continual". It's said that the word "sacrifice" was inserted by the translators. Nobody wants to talk about God's wrath, it's not a popular subject. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. I see God's Laws as an omnipotent force bigger than the universe. So when God says: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”, He means it. Some people say it was "spiritual" death, but i don't buy it. The very day that Adam sinned in the garden, he was due to die. And that would have been all she wrote. But Jesus stepped in the way, in between God's wrath, and fallen man. Our Restrainer stepped into harms way for the sake of humanity. So He has a sort of a conflict of interests. Being our high Priest in Heaven's Temple, He also is making it possible that the rest of humanity can have another new day. But as soon as the "daily" is taken away, on that very day they shall surely die, and they will not escape. This is why the Father has to give the nod, only He can know the day and the hour when the Restrainer is taken out of the way. And when it happens, we get trumpets, and locusts, and the angel king of the abyss. So it doesn't sound like too much of a fun sermon for the itchy ear people. Our restrainer being taken out of the way, i think, can be seen in Revelation's narrative when the censer is cast down just before the trumpets in chapter 8. This, i believe, is the "continual" or the "daily" being taken away and our Restrainer being taken out of the way. The censer in used at the alter of incense which is used for corporate atonement. To atone for the sins of the camp, or in this case the sins of the whole world. No more censer, no more service at the alter of incense, and no more restrainer because He has been taken out of the way. Ultimately, He is taken out of the way by reason of transgression, but the Father determines which moment in time. "For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way."Because of transgression", which amounts to the culmination of the "falling away", "a host will be given over to it" and the place of His Sanctuary is overthrown. And that Sanctuary is where our High Priest operates in Heaven's Temple, the True Tent. The One who is taken out of the way, is when the place of His Sanctuary is overthrown. It's overthrown by transgression which is the falling away. Overthrown, cast down, like in the righteous indignation experienced by Moses when he threw the Decalogue tablets down on the children of Israel. "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.When i read over this note, it still doesn't sound right to me. But it sounds right where i'm reading it in my head. I need to figure out a better way to word it. It would be fun if the thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and earthquake was literal. Then all the watchman would see eye to eye. And sing out with one voice. They lift up their voice; Together they sing for joy; For eye to eye they see. Peaceful rest of the Sabbath.
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Post by mike on Jul 29, 2018 8:34:01 GMT -6
Just want to add: With all this being said I think it is true, that many in the church do not understand the power we have to affect our world for God and His Glory. We don't shine our light in such a way that those in the world glorify God. We don't wield our spiritual weapons of warfare and we often fail to put God's armor to use in our lives. Prayer.... is sorely lacking. The war cries of God's people are a mere whisper. We should not underestimate what we are capable of in Christ! Reading along... Thank you for this reminder. Guilty here at times
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Post by venge on Jul 31, 2018 13:14:59 GMT -6
In regards to my thought of the restrained as Christ that letteth until he is removed for wickedness to abound.....have you read Zechariah 13:7-9
I can’t copy it here but it talks about our shepherd Christ being removed. Once he’s removed, his sheep (us the believers), are scattered. I would say this is because Christ is removed and the falling away happens. When the falling away happens, the man of sin reveal must be close by.
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Post by Natalie on Jul 31, 2018 14:00:38 GMT -6
I see that prophecy differently ...
Zech 13:26 Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion." Says the LORD of hosts. "Strike the Shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered."
Jesus quotes this in Matthew 26:31 before His arrest. He knew the cross was coming, God's sword to deal with sin. The disciples would scatter. And it came to pass.
I believe that rest will be fulfilled during Daniel's 70th week. He will purify Israel, refine them, they will call on Him (the one they pierced Zech 12:10)).
Here's the Scripture picking up where Jesus left off:
… Then I will turn My hand against the little ones. And it shall come to pass in all the land," says the LORD, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, but one-third shall be left in it; I will bring the one-third through the fire, will refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; and each one will say, "The LORD is my God.'"
Taken in context, these verses fit with chapters 12 and 14 when God will deal with the Jews during their last 7 years of history. It's not about the church. Jesus sometimes quoted half a prophecy showing that some was fulfilled at His first coming and the rest of it would be fulfilled at His second coming.
ETA: You might be right that Christ is the Restrainer, but I don't think these verses prove it.
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Post by venge on Jul 31, 2018 14:41:52 GMT -6
I agree the verse points to his capture for the cross but because of what follows in the verse I take it as dual prophecy. This is because anytime he is separated from us, there are those that will scatter. The vers s continue with prophecy
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Post by Natalie on Jul 31, 2018 14:50:05 GMT -6
But who can separate us from Christ? Romans 8:35-39.
I guess I am not understanding you.
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Post by fitz on Jul 31, 2018 20:21:28 GMT -6
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Post by rt on Aug 6, 2018 19:14:37 GMT -6
Now that this dialogue has gotten this far, I have to ask this; if Christ is the He who is removed, then how is He removed? What does that look like on earth? I’m having a hard time understanding how He can be removed but not the Holy Spirit. Wouldn’t that practically be the same thing? He is removed by the falling away. Which must precede the day of the Lord. The Holy Spirit can work on a man but will not be in a man that does not have faith. Man's removal of Christ from the world is man's own fault. Man already changes God's laws in the world but we are still able to pray and worship and minister in parts of the world. What happens when we are killed for praying? What happens when we are killed for worship to God alone? That is removal of Christ. When there is a ban on prayer and ban on worship. Do you remember what Daniel's daily was? He did it since he was a kid and always followed it no matter what. In Daniel 6:12, we see that a decree went out if Daniel would pray to God, he would be killed. In verses 10-11 we see Daniel go to pray before God and is found doing so therefore breaking the king's decree and therefore having to slay Daniel. and finally in Daniel 11:31 we see again that it will happen as it happened before. Prayer will be taken and banned by death. Christ is our sanctuary of strength, our rock and our fortress. They will pollute it removing him from us and removing worship of him. That is removing Christ from our lives. I see this defense as a mixing of apples and oranges. First of all you talk about Daniel. Daniel was a Jew, a captive in the land of Babylon. He was not "in Christ", he was bound to the law of Moses. Nevertheless, though prayer was banned, Daniel and his friends were not removed, they survived the fires of the furnace, also Daniel survived the lion's den and went on to influence the babylonians for good and for God's glory. This does not demonstrate the point you were trying to make. Also the "daily sacrifice" that is taken away in Daniel 11:31, is not prayer nor is it the body of Christ. The Daily sacrifice is an actual animal sacrifice (Exod 29:38-42; Num. 28:3, 6, 2 Chron. 2:4, etc.), not "prayer" As for the abomination of desolation The "Holy Place" is not us, it is the physical building- the (rebuilt) Temple in Jerusalem. If you don't think this will happen, just check out the Temple Institute's website and you will see that not only is there a will to see it happen, but they are actually in the planning stages for it, having recreated the temple implements, identifying the priesthood through genetic testing and have begun training the priests in the temple duties, they have revived the Sanhedrin and have blueprints for the chamber of hewn stone and I am sure that there are plans already drawn up for a new temple. Consider what Paul says to the Thessalonians The "lawless" one seats himself in the temple of God, displaying himself as God. This IS the abomination of desolation. If you consider the "temple of God" to be us as believers, how then can the lawless one seat himself in us? That is virtually impossible both physically and spiritually. I understand that what one believes regarding the rapture timing and whether or not you believe the church will go through the 70th week, changes the lens through which you interpret prophecy. It sounds to me like you do not ascribe to a pre trib view. The foundation of your interpretation is based on your view of when the rapture happens, so you interpret things to suit that view. yes I also interpret through the pre trib rapture lens. Let the reader decide which view has more scriptural merit. Yes this is true of Christ, He is our strength and our fortress. But no man can pollute our sanctuary in Christ. No man can remove worship of Him from us or take Him from our lives. He lives in us, He abides in us and we in Him. Man can try to prohibit us from praying, man can shut down our places of worship. But our faith is not dependent on a building, and who can keep us from prayer? It didn't work for Daniel and God delivered him. In fact this was the result:
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Post by mike on Aug 7, 2018 5:33:20 GMT -6
^^^ Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Heb 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.
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Post by venge on Aug 7, 2018 8:32:36 GMT -6
First, it was not a defense but my opinion. It may be apples and oranges to you RT, but the way I see it, you view my opinion as me forcing scripture to make my view fit which is offensive to say the least but Imo, youre not looking at scripture the way I do.
I had stated earlier why I thought it was Christ. Others stated their opinion. You are entitled to your own. We are here to search for truth, compare/debate. I hope that is what you want. I don’t follow pre Trib. Anyone who does not follow it should never be cast out nor should be felt they are wrong. You never know, you may be the one wrong. The truth is, there is what we choose to believe and what we don’t. But there is only 1 truth and this is why we read.
I will reply to this tomorrow, after work, with scripture. My opinion is not changed but others have offered good reasons. I pray we look more to find out as it is difficult subject that many have written on and yet no answer.
Still, I will reply tomorrow to your response on Daniel, prayer, the temple and sitting in the temple
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Post by Natalie on Aug 7, 2018 11:05:43 GMT -6
Calm down, venge. It was a defense of your opinion, was it not? I do not see that RT was saying you force scripture to fit your view. Your view of the rapture influences how you interpret Scripture. Just like RT's view influences how she interprets (which she stated in her post). My view influences how I interpret. Similarly, how a person interprets Scripture will influence their view, whether a person takes things literally or spiritualizes them.
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Post by mike on Aug 7, 2018 11:38:29 GMT -6
Calm down, venge. It was a defense of your opinion, was it not? I do not see that RT was saying you force scripture to fit your view. Your view of the rapture influences how you interpret Scripture. Just like RT's view influences how she interprets (which she stated in her post). My view influences how I interpret. Similarly, how a person interprets Scripture will influence their view, whether a person takes things literally or spiritualizes them. Isnt this why there are 11-teen thousand sects of Christianity? I dont feel that we should be dogmatic about many things, in fact my take is one thing and only one thing do we NEED to agree on and NEED to be dogmatic about. 1Cor 15:3-4After that we should diligently search, but not ever forget to love one another as He loved us and commanded us to do so. John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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Post by venge on Aug 7, 2018 11:51:51 GMT -6
Calm down, venge. It was a defense of your opinion, was it not? I do not see that RT was saying you force scripture to fit your view. Your view of the rapture influences how you interpret Scripture. Just like RT's view influences how she interprets (which she stated in her post). My view influences how I interpret. Similarly, how a person interprets Scripture will influence their view, whether a person takes things literally or spiritualizes them. Natalie, 😀 I am calm. It’s beautiful outside! I take it how it was written. It was directed at me, therefore I don’t expect anyone to understand how words can come across to one and mean something to another. I think my reply explained how I took it and that I did not use language to suggest anger. I only expressed concern because I took it offensively. Now, if that was not what she meant, that’s fine either way. But it is how I took it. I agree with your logic. Your view may influence how you interpret but you cannot force an interpretation. I don’t believe the Bible allows it imo. As I said, I will reply tomorrow on my 8 hr day when I have time.
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