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Post by fitz on Aug 9, 2018 4:08:37 GMT -6
Please explain when Christ said, the one who stands firm till the end will be saved. As that salvation from him comes before the end as he says, yet the birth pangs come prior. If they come prior, the church can go through them. If the church doesn’t go through them, and we are raptured before the end, why say we will be persecuted and put to death? Fritz, I’m glad you are positive and convicted. But I’m not questioning your salvation. I’m saying there’s plenty verses that say tribulation in the form of persecution is good. Paul was saved and he went through it. Why r you special over him that u shouldn’t endure it? How many Christians endured severe persecution? The church has gone through it and will go through it. The end of this dispensation of grace will occur when Jesus raptures His Church. We endure whatever trials and tribulations come our way until that happens. Some have been severely persecuted in the past 2000 years. Some have not. NONE have experienced the worst time of judgement ever to come upon the earth (Jesus said it, Matthew 24:21). That time is reserved for the coming 7 years... The 7 years set aside, primarily for Israel, the time of Jacob's trouble, is not for the Church to endure. This time is also to bring judgement on the unbelieving world. Abraham's largely reprobate nephew Lot was saved from the judgement of Sodom and Gomorrah. He was no where near the righteous man his uncle was, but because he did believe, he was spared. How much more will God spare us who have put on Christ, who is perfect righteousness? You see, God doesn't judge the righteous along with the wicked. Genesis 18:25 25 Surely you wouldn’t do such a thing, destroying the righteous along with the wicked. Why, you would be treating the righteous and the wicked exactly the same! Surely you wouldn’t do that! Should not the Judge of all the earth do what is right?”
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Post by fitz on Aug 9, 2018 4:17:03 GMT -6
fitz just curious of a few things. Did not most of the Apostles accept Jesus? some sooner than later, and even Judas although he betrayed Jesus, we do not know what his heart really felt, but he must have felt convincted enough of what he did to hang himself...shame took over him. James wasn't convinced right away, nor Thomas, however, they came to faith and believed and they were jews..what about Paul? and what about those whose faith was counted as righteous in the lists of Hebrews 11 prior to CHrsit on the Corss? The author of Hebrews seemed to demonstrate that Faith even meant something back then, and we are given details of the obedience (not works) of these peoples. What about in the book of Acts where it says 1000's came to believe. And they were talking about jews there, not gentiles. I can give you the scriptures but I have always wondered that the "blindness" wasn't complete blindness to ALL jews in the day, and what about Jonathan Cahn? and any number of 'messianic jews" of our day today? This is a sincere question on my part. edit: Ok, I have no problem accepting that there could and can be a 3rd temple being built. Afterall, we have many a literal situation in the scriptures that plays out the spiritual battle behind the scenes. So... for the record, I can not dispute that the literal, physical event can, will or could happen. But what about the irony of the whole temple thing? Is there not a spiritual lesson behind this physical temple desire by man to create something for himself that he thinks appeases God? When we have these literal physical things spoken in the Word, is there not the chance that there is a double meaning/lesson being spoken? It is the inspired Word of God afterall... Many talk of Ruth and her story and then equate it to the Christian...Many use Job to explain the trials and tribulations of their own personal life. Why do we quit doing that when it comes to the end times stuff? Why do we, rather the Christ follower, drop the spiritual lesson the Word is trying to speak towards by only considering the literal physical? BSG...I think I answered it in my responses to grandpa and venge, but let me be clear. Messianic Jews are believers in Christ. They are Christians. There is no difference between gentiles and Jews who are in Christ (Gal 3:28). The Jews I reference above are unbelieving Jews. The Jewish people, by and large, have never accepted Jesus. Their eyes have been blinded during this current age of grace and they are still looking for their Messiah to come. The Time of Jacob's trouble is for them. This is when God will remove the blinders and they will realize that Jesus was/is the Messiah! Hallelujah!
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Post by venge on Aug 9, 2018 4:36:18 GMT -6
venge says: The daily was meant to be worship and oblation. Making requests to God and offering a sacrifice for ones sins. Daniel did not offer up an animal sacrifice but it was said he did what he was taught to do as a child. Daniel praying is what got Daniel to be thrown into the Lion's den. The decree was set forth to stop prayer and oblation to any other God, that was the daily. and you use Psalm 141:2 which says what the daily is "evening sacrifice" There were sacrifices made daily. (Lev 6:9 for example) These will be what are stopped. No man can make people stop praying. I can drive around my town praying. I can walk around the grocery store or mall praying. No one is going to be able to take that away. Also, the anti-Christ is not a believer. Therefore, he is not a temple for the Holy Spirit. The Scripture says, "he sets himself up in God's temple." So, he would have to set himself up in a believers heart, and that's not possible. The literal understanding is what makes sense. There has to be another Temple in Jerusalem....with daily sacrifices. ETA: I logged off to go do something else when fitz's comment "You gotta keep'm separated" clicked. Venge, you believe that Christians have to go through the Tribulation Period; therefore, you are trying to find a "daily sacrifice" that Christians do that will be taken away. But it's called the time of Jacob's Trouble because it is for the Jewish nation. We have to look at what the nation will be doing as a "daily sacrifice." What daily thing did the nation do? (see Leviticus) You see it as a spiritual temple of God because you think Christians will be there, but it's going to be a physical temple that the nation builds and then start their daily burnt sacrifices. Natalie, I think I already put some of the writing on the wall. I never said the AC was a believer. Did you not read Ezekiel? Did the king of Tyre sit in the temple? Nope. Yet he sat. God explains there what sitting means. No where in scripture is a third temple mentioned to be rebuilt as a command or prophecy. People take the verse of “sits in the temple” and assume that it will be built because of that without looking into Ezekiel and the harlot. I cannot assume on God’s word Natalie. Not when scripture shows the way line by line...the harlot sits on many waters. Would that be literal too If the angel had not defined waters? The harlot sitting on 7 mountains says what to you? Because it is tied with sitting in the temple just as Ezekiel saw the king of Tyre and also the AC
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Post by mike on Aug 9, 2018 6:21:19 GMT -6
fitz just curious of a few things. Did not most of the Apostles accept Jesus? some sooner than later, and even Judas although he betrayed Jesus, we do not know what his heart really felt, but he must have felt convincted enough of what he did to hang himself...shame took over him. James wasn't convinced right away, nor Thomas, however, they came to faith and believed and they were jews..what about Paul? and what about those whose faith was counted as righteous in the lists of Hebrews 11 prior to CHrsit on the Corss? The author of Hebrews seemed to demonstrate that Faith even meant something back then, and we are given details of the obedience (not works) of these peoples. What about in the book of Acts where it says 1000's came to believe. And they were talking about jews there, not gentiles. I can give you the scriptures but I have always wondered that the "blindness" wasn't complete blindness to ALL jews in the day, and what about Jonathan Cahn? and any number of 'messianic jews" of our day today? This is a sincere question on my part. edit: Ok, I have no problem accepting that there could and can be a 3rd temple being built. Afterall, we have many a literal situation in the scriptures that plays out the spiritual battle behind the scenes. So... for the record, I can not dispute that the literal, physical event can, will or could happen. But what about the irony of the whole temple thing? Is there not a spiritual lesson behind this physical temple desire by man to create something for himself that he thinks appeases God? When we have these literal physical things spoken in the Word, is there not the chance that there is a double meaning/lesson being spoken? It is the inspired Word of God afterall... Many talk of Ruth and her story and then equate it to the Christian...Many use Job to explain the trials and tribulations of their own personal life. Why do we quit doing that when it comes to the end times stuff? Why do we, rather the Christ follower, drop the spiritual lesson the Word is trying to speak towards by only considering the literal physical? BSG...I think I answered it in my responses to grandpa and venge, but let me be clear. Messianic Jews ad believers in Christ. They are Christians. There is no difference between gentiles and Jews who are in Christ (Gal 3:28). The Jews I reference above are unbelieving Jews. The Jewish people, by and large, have never accepted Jesus. Their eyes have been blinded during this current age of grace and they are still looking for their Messiah to come. The Time of Jacob's trouble is for them. This is when God will remove the blinders and they will realize the Jesus was/is the Messiah! Hallelujah! Fitz this is an important distinction thank you for pointing it out. Before the cross those who believed, their faith was accounted, credited to them as righteousness. Those who rejected the cross and the ONE who God sent have no righteousness in them. venge - your avatar scares me
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Post by venge on Aug 9, 2018 7:45:25 GMT -6
Mike - The avatar is in shock because of the comments 😀
Fritz- I agree that the Jews are blind. I agree the Jews need to go thru Tribulation. I agree the Jews will be changed to see the one they pierced. But with all that agreement, there can still be everything we said. It does not nullify what happens to the Jews.
Are all people who have faith in Christ perfect and need no correction? No. If that were true, Christ would not warn us he could take away our crown or remove our name from the book of life. Otherwise, that would assume you can lose your salvation which I don’t believe. But many Christians still hold onto iniquity and need to be refined and made white. That Bible is explicit in that. You may be secure, but that doesn’t mean the neighbor that identifies as Christian and says they believe doesn’t need correction/ chastisement/ tribulation.
But back to the OP. The restrainer, we still all seem to have opposing views. I would like to get back on these thoughts....
By grace are ye saved thru faith. Ok, but what if once I’m saved, I am still serving the god of my belly over the creator? Then did I have faith? And if I did not, was I saved? Do I need correction to find my way back?
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 9, 2018 8:14:20 GMT -6
I was going to say something similar venge I already mentioned this: 11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
I am not suggesting works salvation. I am talking about our Pentacostal walk after we have come thru the Passover. If Passover is all that we needed, the One and Done, why all the letters to the churches by Paul and Peter and Timothy and John, James, Jude, you get my point. I have come to understand that Yes, our Spirit is on the right track, but our flesh is weak, and WHY? Because there is still that battle with evil, wicked, lawlessness that can make filthy EVEN IN A CHRIST-FOLLOWER. Who has lied? Who has desired material things of this world? whi has been prideful? who has worried? Who has felt helpless? Even a christian experiences these things. We are still capable of being deceived in this present age. Us Followers have not had their bodies glorified yet, so the Followers need Shepherding, lest ye go astray ( not losing salvation, but not Hearing God and following Him). This is an active, daily sacrifice of the follower over this flesh. Regarding the Restrainer I believe because of Job's story that the LORD is restraining and has authority over the work of the man of lawlessness, and when He quits restraining this, it will be like Wrath upon this earth. Wheat and the tares comes to mind. Evil Spirit is restrained by the Holy Spirit, and Christ will unleash this thing by His letting of it happen full strength. We know who has the Keys to this. It does not say that the Holy Spirit quits being available to one responding to His Call either. He is the Same as in the Beginning and in the End. That is why I have a hard time with "dispensation" thinking. It is still by God's Grace, Faith by those Called..It is just going to be incredibly bad when the Restraint is no longer... I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 9, 2018 8:18:42 GMT -6
Correction and discipline from God is not the same as what takes place in Revelation called The Great Tribulation. It's God's wrath and we are saved from that. The church does not need to go through that to be purified. Christ is purifying us in our daily lives now. Some believers respond to His discipline and repent, and others continue to hold on to sins no matter what. I have one family member at that point right now. She's miserable and doesn't even realize why. "I'll live my life how I want to" is her response. It's sad.
It's why I prefer to call it Daniel's 70th week or the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Less confusion for a believer.
Back to the OP...I have read that it could be that it is the Holy Spirit who is restraining, but He steps out of that position and lets evil have it's way. It's not that He is removed from the earth, just removed from that position. I do not know what the original language means to know if that is a possibility.
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2018 8:34:29 GMT -6
Hi venge I am going to break up your post and reply to it in sections if that's okay... You make an excellent point, especially the passage in 1 Peter, though I have read it many times I never really made the connection. In the OT the Spirit - was the Spirit of Christ. However the distinction I was after was concerning the difference of the New Testament saints being part of the "body of Christ" while the Old testament saints are not considered part of His body. We are "In Christ" in a different way, we are not beholden to the law while Daniel was, though he could not practice it while in captivity in Babylon. He also would not have recognized the "spirit" as being from Christ Jesus. That is something that the New Testament writers identified in hindsight. Still- an excellent point!
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2018 8:53:38 GMT -6
Yes I agree with you that Daniel was as devout as he could be in his situation. As I mentioned in my other post, without the temple Daniel could not practice the full law of Moses, he did what he was able to do. While it may be that his prayers were "like" a sacrifice to God, Daniel would have understood the word "Sacrifice" to mean an actual offering. He would have understood that the regular sacrifice and the sanctuary fortress would have been talking about the regular daily animal sacrifice on the temple grounds.
Consider these passages:
No where do we see in the book of Daniel that his prayers were called a "sacrifice". You quoted many passages from the New Testament that say this is true of New Covenant believers, this is where I see that you are mixing apples and oranges. You are applying new covenant principles to Daniel who was under the Old Covenant, though as you pointed out the Spirit of Christ was at work in him.
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2018 9:22:08 GMT -6
You say rightly that we are now acting as the temple of the Holy Spirit, that we are the sanctuary, but then you claim that the temple that the antichrist is said to seat himslef in is not a literal one?
You use the passage concerning the king of Tyre from Ezekiel 28 to make this assertion that the temple spoken of in 2 Thessalonians was not a literal one. Again I see this as mixing apples and oranges. The passage in Ezekiel does not even speak of God's Temple, but rather that the King of Tyre says that he sits in the seat of gods, with a little "g", not God with a big "G". The version you quoted from says "a god". Which is still not referring to the Mercy seat in the holy Place of God's temple in Jerusalem. The King of Tyre was saying that he is equal to God, and no he didn't literally seat himself on God's throne. But that has nothing at all to do with what is going on in Daniel. This passage in Ezekiel does not serve as proof in my opinion of what you are claiming.
I agree with you that the Antichrist will be boastful calling himself God, and that he will do terrible things to those who claim to follow God during the 70th week. Yet I take the passage in Thessalonians to be literal not allegorical. It clearly says that the lawless one takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God (Big "G"). Again those believers during Paul's day would have understood that he was talking about a literal temple.
Your argument seems to contradict when you say that the seat of God (2 Thess) is not literal and yet we are the temple and sanctuary. If we are the temple/sanctuary and the seat that the lawless one seats himself upon is "In the temple of God" then that seat would have to be "In" us as individuals.
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Post by rt on Aug 9, 2018 10:08:51 GMT -6
So your claim is- to be clear, that someone removing prayer and worship from us = removing Christ from the rest of the world.
I do not mean to sound condescending here, but this makes no sense to me at all. There are many believers around this world today who live where prayer and worship are outlawed. Yet Christ is still with them. And like Daniel they continue to pray and worship even if it means their death. Now if you mean that removing those who are followers of Christ from the world (through death/ martyrdom) removes Christ from the rest of the world, well then I would say we are closer to agreeing.
If so then you and I would both see that removing the church or body of Christ from the world is what removes Christ from the rest of mankind, then we agree! How about that!
Those who already live in these places and are persecuted for their faith don't stop shining their light, in fact many are being saved in these very places. Christ is advancing in those places not being removed.
Even in Daniel after the abomination of desolation we read that there will be many who have insight into what is happening who Know God who will take action, I speculate these to be both those we call the tribulation saints and the 144,00.
You go on to say "Why will people abandon the faith? If they were in the faith, they believed and were sealed w/the Holy Spirit. But they give it up. Christ didn't give up on them, they gave up on Christ, but an AntiChrist kingdom will teach a doctrine to pull people away from Christ; and that is removing Christ from the world. That is his goal." So do you believe that someone who is saved can lose their salvation?..... Just wondering. I do not ascribe to that idea.
To me if one's faith depends solely on outward action such as prayer and worship, and "doing Christian things" as you said, and taking those things away causes one to lose their faith, to me that was never even real faith to begin with, it was just vain repetition and going through the motions.
Personally and this is only my opinion, the "apostasy" or falling away in 2 Thessalonians is referring to the demise of the biblical teachings of the church. Indeed we see this happening even today, as the church has watered down the gospel and the doctrines of the faith. This is reflected in the letters to the churches in the Revelation as well. How false teachers and false believers will infiltrate the churches. True followers of Christ will not ever "fall away" into apostate teachings. But the local churches as organizations will and are as they propagate false teaching and tolerate immorality and unscriptural teachings among themselves. There are some who believe that the word apostasy in 2 Thessalonians 2 actually means the departure of the faithful not the departure from the faith, I am not completely sure if that argument holds water.
"We are the living temple of God. He resides in us. We are to sacrifice our flesh for HIM and give prayer and oblation lifting up our hands and loving our God to which is our daily; before someone tries to take it away. "
Couldn't agree with you more, but even if someone tries to take that away from me, I will not stop praying or worshiping my Lord, His power which abides in me will help me like Daniel to stand firm in my faith whatever comes.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 9, 2018 10:18:35 GMT -6
Is not Paul telling that it will be a revealing of this man of lawlessness? Revealing something that us concealed? For me the context of this letter is a?lesson on the spiritual. Hence the reference to the restrainer. I give equal weight that the Restrainer is spiritual and Paul is equally describing the lawless spirit and describing it with terms that sound physical. The thes were worried that the day had come. No no. Not until a,b, c.. I see 2 Revealings. When the 1st rapture occurs the Revealing of the sons of God those of us who are those sons will be able to see this spirit man of lawlessness.
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Post by venge on Aug 9, 2018 12:03:16 GMT -6
RT,
I will respond to your replies this weekend. I work long shifts...hate replies on my phone!
You have valid arguments but perhaps you didn’t understand me on a subject or two. What you refer to as contradictions I find are not so, and that may be my wording. Regardless, I disagree with NT logic not being OT. I see it all over from Matthew to OT, Revelation to OT and so on. That’s what is called a shadow of things to come. It doesn’t change the fact or the meaning.
I don’t see Revelation that hard. Maybe because I don’t look at it all literally. You see grass and trees destroyed. I see people. You see locusts, I see armies. You see a meteorite called wormwood, I see bitterness in death, truth and famine. You see a literal temple, I don’t. You see a false prophet and a leader, I see both the same. But you don’t see a literal dragon, you don’t see a literal women, you don’t see a literal city descended from the clouds, you don’t see a literal 4 guys on a horse with different colors. I could go on.....
Now I’m replying on my phone and I hate Siri. She’s terrible. Btw, chick-fil-a Oreo cookie shake is awesome, wanted to throw that in there. Hope God leaves it for the millennium kingdom 👌
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Post by rt on Aug 10, 2018 7:26:12 GMT -6
RT, I will respond to your replies this weekend. I work long shifts...hate replies on my phone! You have valid arguments but perhaps you didn’t understand me on a subject or two. What you refer to as contradictions I find are not so, and that may be my wording. Regardless, I disagree with NT logic not being OT. I see it all over from Matthew to OT, Revelation to OT and so on. That’s what is called a shadow of things to come. It doesn’t change the fact or the meaning. I don’t see Revelation that hard. Maybe because I don’t look at it all literally. You see grass and trees destroyed. I see people. You see locusts, I see armies. You see a meteorite called wormwood, I see bitterness in death, truth and famine. You see a literal temple, I don’t. You see a false prophet and a leader, I see both the same. But you don’t see a literal dragon, you don’t see a literal women, you don’t see a literal city descended from the clouds, you don’t see a literal 4 guys on a horse with different colors. I could go on..... Now I’m replying on my phone and I hate Siri. She’s terrible. Btw, chick-fil-a Oreo cookie shake is awesome, wanted to throw that in there. Hope God leaves it for the millennium kingdom 👌 Hi Venge, I really do appreciate your willingness to reply to me, yes I am a literalist when it comes to scripture, except when the scripture itself tells me that what is there is an allegory or metaphor for something else. On this point we will likely never persuade each other. But still it is a pleasure hearing from you and I thank you for taking the time. Have a great day at work, look forward to your response. Sadly we don't have chick-fil-a... my daughter lives in Annapolis MD. Every time I visit I want to go to one but for whatever reason we never do. Next time for sure. I wish they'd open one up here in Western NY.
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Post by venge on Aug 10, 2018 12:41:36 GMT -6
I don’t live far from Annapolis. I’m in VA
On a side note, I’m not trying to persuade you. I know many here will never change certain ideas. Why do I post? I’m curious of the reply, I enjoy hearing others thoughts as sometimes i see something outside the box and causes me to dig deeper therefore gaining a better understanding from my standpoint and theirs.
I plant the seed. Whether you like it or not 😂 Like I once told Fritz, well all know the truth.... After the Tribulation 😉
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