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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 10, 2018 18:36:51 GMT -6
rt replied to barbiosheepgirl and said this: Hmmm.. I am not so sure I am convinced of this statement.. I guess it depends on what the purpose of Revelation is for.. I believe it for the Revealing of Jesus and what it takes for many to enter the Kingdom. He doesnt keep the door shut forever after the 1st Rapture because we have Revelation 14 where there are 2 more harvests, and to state something we all agree too: we have "tribulation" saints... Here is a scene after the 2 Witnesses are done for... 13And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.Sounds like they suffered the tribulation enough to call on the name of the Lord... just sayin'. Is Revelation relishing the destruction of mankind or the salvation that results from it? What glasses are we to be wearing when we read it? Rev 21: 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
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Post by Natalie on Aug 10, 2018 18:59:53 GMT -6
I am the one who said that, and it was directed to Venge. No, I don't think God relishes the destruction. What I meant by my comment was in answer to Venge. He seems to think that the church needs to go through The Tribulation. He seemed to equate correction and tribulation. God corrects us throughout out lives; we do not need what occurs during the Tribulation to purify us. Revelation describes God's wrath being poured out. We are not destined for wrath. Yes, the Bible says Christians will have tribulations. These help to refine us. God's correction is to get us to repent. I agree that The Tribulation will do that for some people, but the church does not NEED to go through it. The purpose of the Tribulation (as JD says "The tribulation is for the purification of the Jewish nation) is stated in Jeremiah 30:11 "I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." Yes, there will be many who call on His name. There will be many that curse Him. Yes, He will eventually dwell again among His people. But the purpose of Revelation is to prepare the Jewish people for their Messiah, to set up His Kingdom, and to punish the nations (Isa 26:21). It is not for correction and purification of the church.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 10, 2018 19:25:31 GMT -6
Rev 21: 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
It's an amazing verse. That will be us that He is dwelling with! Our faith will be sight.
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2018 5:18:12 GMT -6
I am the one who said that, and it was directed to Venge. No, I don't think God relishes the destruction. What I meant by my comment was in answer to Venge. He seems to think that the church needs to go through The Tribulation. He seemed to equate correction and tribulation. God corrects us throughout out lives; we do not need what occurs during the Tribulation to purify us. Revelation describes God's wrath being poured out. We are not destined for wrath. Yes, the Bible says Christians will have tribulations. These help to refine us. God's correction is to get us to repent. I agree that The Tribulation will do that for some people, but the church does not NEED to go through it. The purpose of the Tribulation (as JD says "The tribulation is for the purification of the Jewish nation) is stated in Jeremiah 30:11 "I will make a full end of all the nations among whom I scattered you, but of you I will not make a full end. I will discipline you in just measure, and I will by no means leave you unpunished." Yes, there will be many who call on His name. There will be many that curse Him. Yes, He will eventually dwell again among His people. But the purpose of Revelation is to prepare the Jewish people for their Messiah, to set up His Kingdom, and to punish the nations (Isa 26:21). It is not for correction and purification of the church. Natalie, You said “he seems to think”... It should be, many believe..... Now, I do believe we will go thru Tribulation. The Bible says so over and over. That is the birth pangs, the time of sorrow. That is not Jacobs trouble aka great tribulation. I believe we are not appointed for wrath. Therefore, I don’t believe the time of sorrow is his wrath. His wrath comes after then AoD whereas I place the time of persecution before hand which the church will endure. The church today suffers greatly with rape, murder, burnings, beheadings, vandalism etc Most churches in the USA do not. It is wrong to think it can’t happen to them when it happens today in Israel, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Ethiopia, Sudan, China, now in Germany, Sweden and many other places. What if in 5 years, you see all this rampant in the USA or where you live? Would you say Tribulation aka persecution, or would you it’s random crime? You may say it’s not the birth pangs and I’d say how do you know? There is only one God who knows. I think we will see it because I see it today. We are not untouchable from mankind
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Post by rt on Aug 11, 2018 7:30:38 GMT -6
venge, So here is a point we agree on, I also believe the church will be on earth during the birth pains. Which I equate with the first four seals. However I do not see them as beginning within the 70th week, but as occurring throughout the church age since Christ's ascension to His throne and escalating up until Christ's return . Though I don't want to detract from the OP on the restrainer, just wanted to let you know that there are things you and I may find agreement on.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 11, 2018 8:56:14 GMT -6
Venge- thanks for clarifying your position.
I do think the church can and possibly will go through some kind of persecution. The US is not guaranteed escape. I think individuals currently go through tribulations and persecution. I just don't think we will go through the time described in Revelation. I think we are in the birth pangs right now.
I think we must clarify "tribulations" vs "The Tribulation".
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2018 9:10:44 GMT -6
Venge- thanks for clarifying your position. I do think the church can and possibly will go through some kind of persecution. The US is not guaranteed escape. I think individuals currently go through tribulations and persecution. I just don't think we will go through the time described in Revelation. I think we are in the birth pangs right now. I think we must clarify "tribulations" vs "The Tribulation". First let us with Tribulation. The Tribulation (not great tribulation) is the birth pangs yes? If so, then where we differ is that you believe it is now, where I lean towards the 70th week and it’s beginning. I believe we are saved before or during great tribulation. That is because I follow the verse that says then there will be great Tribulation and at that time everyone found written will be saved. Also that time is shortened for the elects sake. Also Christ will send the reapers to bring the wheat into his barn.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 11, 2018 9:37:18 GMT -6
No, I don't think the birth pangs are the Tribulation. I believe the birth pains are the wars, earthquakes, rampant sin, signs in the heavens, false teaching, etc - all the things He said would come. Matt 24:8 "All these are but the beginning of the birth pains." But He also says, "When these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." Luke 21:28 To me The Tribulation is Daniel's 70th week with the last half being The Great Tribulation.
To me there is lower case tribulation. That would be the persecution we are seeing now. Also, the things that happen in a believer's daily life because they follow Christ. It may be rape, murder, fire or it may be ostracism, ridicule, rejection, loss of clients, loss of a job.
Then there is upper case Tribulation and that is Daniel's 70th week.
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Post by venge on Aug 11, 2018 11:53:23 GMT -6
No, I don't think the birth pangs are the Tribulation. I believe the birth pains are the wars, earthquakes, rampant sin, signs in the heavens, false teaching, etc - all the things He said would come. Matt 24:8 "All these are but the beginning of the birth pains." But He also says, "When these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near." Luke 21:28 To me The Tribulation is Daniel's 70th week with the last half being The Great Tribulation. To me there is lower case tribulation. That would be the persecution we are seeing now. Also, the things that happen in a believer's daily life because they follow Christ. It may be rape, murder, fire or it may be ostracism, ridicule, rejection, loss of clients, loss of a job. Then there is upper case Tribulation and that is Daniel's 70th week. I understand. I put the lower case Trib in the first half and the uppercase Trib at the second
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Aug 12, 2018 12:55:13 GMT -6
my apologies to rt for misquoting...thats what happens when I try to respond by hand and not choose the quote button... I went a little bit on time here before replying because I didnt want to be nitpicky..then I decided I want to clarify something. Natalie, it sure seemed like you were replying to me because I was talking about God's discipline, and i was talking about the sufferings even a believer experiences. My friend who battled breast cancer has had her whole body reconstructed and mutilated. If that is not wrath upon a woman, aside from sexual abuse, I can not even imagine what is to come in Trib Wrath. But I do know my friend is walking in the Light now, and she is overcoming many may battles. That is our Hope. Back to lawlessness abounding during the struggle of the beast and the 2nd to last kingdom giving up her stronghold, I said this in my reply to rt which was to be Natalie: Funny, I was not asking for God's outlook on the matter, I was asking the watchers and those trying to discern Revelation. my question is: How do YOU see Revelation? I see many coming to refinement, coming to the Light. I see a whole system of man (Beast and Harlot-dom (the Babylon that has a grip on man causing him to want to elevate himself over God) coming to a fall as the Kingdom of God is established on Earth (as it is in Heaven). Where it becomes springs of water flowing from the Tree of Life where nations come to be healed. The Harvests into his Kingdom are not without pain and struggle over this fleshly destruction, except it seems for the 1st Harvest which is a Sealing.. Even with the Promise of Christ's salvation, man still does it his way, is disobedient, misses the Spiritual connection he has in this present age. The Kingdom of God is within his midst, and there will be a time where he does want it yet can't see it until he must suffer the Wrath...some will have to go thru this Wrath. Some will be able to escape that Wrath as they come to the Faith and are believing/following. Some will die a physical death before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Those alive when this happens have been and will be acting like they have since the Fall of man. He is not coming because Elon Musk wants to reach Mars. He is not coming because Iran wants to nuke Israel. He is coming to destroy the Iron and the Clay feet of the infamous Statue in Daniel and be the Final Kingdom That is why we pray this; Our Heavenly Father holy is Your Name, I bear witness that Your Kingdom is coming your Will will be done on this Earth as it is in Heaven. Give to us your daily bread for strength, nourishment and Truth, all the while forgive me of my sins, the sins that keep me apart from Hearing You daily, and this forgiveness I also give freely to those who sin against me. Lead me on your strait path of Righteousness so I am not lead astray by temptation. Deliver us all from this Evil sooner, on our time clock, please do not tarry any longer, as the beast systems are dragging many into darkness..In You are all the Power and Glory and Honor Amen!
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Post by Natalie on Aug 12, 2018 13:57:37 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirlMy previous posts are how I see Revelation. It is Daniel's 70th Week. It is to finish Israel's history. It is to bring in everlasting righteousness and His kingdom. I agree with you...it will be the destruction of man's government and a harvest of those who believe. But also destruction for those that still reject Him no matter what they just went through. A full end to nations. But yet, a setting up of His kingdom that has the power to heal nations. So, there must be new nations in the kingdom to come. ? ? ? Yes, I want the Rapture. I want to be with my Savior. I want to worship Him without the fleshly nature. I don't want destruction to come. But yet, I want to see the promises to Israel fulfilled. I want to see them bow before their King, to worship their Messiah, to be blessed with everything He has promised them. If we could skip the part about God's wrath and the destruction that follows, that would be great by me. But I am not running the show. So, it's one of those reasons that we must pray, hard, and share the Gospel, so that people do not have to go through it. Any Christian who relishes what is coming better check their hearts.
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Post by venge on Aug 13, 2018 11:36:57 GMT -6
Natalie,
I didn’t forget about replying to you. I got too busy this weekend between the March protests and doing wife stuff. Gonna need more time before I can reply.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 13, 2018 19:28:16 GMT -6
Venge - No problem. I didn't even realize there was anything left you hadn't replied to
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Post by grandpaskitzo on Aug 15, 2018 14:24:45 GMT -6
Just want to chime in and say I love this thread guys. Keep it going!
To all, keep humble and let The Holy Spirit guide you in all truth until we are all in one accord. Amen! Take all things in prayer to God and seek His wisdom and be not afraid to let go of things we’ve been told by man.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 2:05:43 GMT -6
Just want to add this very interesting teaching on the Restrainer. It revolves around the purpose of the church (the Body of Christ) and the question of what is being restrained. To me this is a perspective I have not yet considered...
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