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Post by cwood85 on Jan 13, 2020 10:17:44 GMT -6
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 26, 2019 11:21:35 GMT -6
This should be paid very close attention to. Look at where these are located. In all the areas of turkey they could be located or have been placed a, they are directly north of Israel. The US has moved 40 bombs in 20 years and there are 50 left. Turkey may be pretending to be an ally, but they are not and want Israel wiped off the map. We also in the past trained Turkey on how to use them. It’s very dangerous to try and move them by air. Each bomb holds 10 times the yield of what was dropped on Hiroshima and there are 50 of them which would be equivalent to 500 Hiroshima bombs. I found this map on an article I read about this situation. Erdogan is going to make it very difficult for those bombs to go anywhere.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 24, 2019 10:59:12 GMT -6
Your post seems to suggest that your atheist friend will have salvation without faith in Christ. That's what I was pointing out breaks Rule 1. (And I didn't write those rules.) And I wasn't picking out Scripture to make my point. I was using the larger context of the scene in Acts that you were quoting. Never said she would have salvation without Christ and if that is how it seems to be presented that was not my intention. I am presenting something I have struggled with myself and this is a scenario that I have been angry, frustrated and confused with at God in the past and in regards to our purpose in this life, and the purpose/reason of the gospel, the good news. Thinking our eternity is solely based on a handful of decades of life, limited knowledge and understanding, it experiences and choices and that’s it, to me is not that great and clearly according the OP’s post, I am not the only one who has struggled with such reasoning. You pointed out one of the variables in the context of that section of Acts when there are many variables that are presented for the context given by Paul.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 24, 2019 9:35:45 GMT -6
(He also called on them to repent)<<<< Yes I know and I said that above that he told them to repent. He was talking about repenting of many things, not just one. Do you understand the meaning of repent? To change your mind or understanding about something is it's meaning and I explained that when I said this:
..."but tells them WHO THEY REALLY ARE and to repent from thinking gods can be made and shaped by human hands or needs our participation and devotion to achieve and earn their (idols or even Gods)love, will or ways."
But read on...Acts 17:32-34 “Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, “We will hear you again about this.” So Paul went out from their midst. But some men joined him and believed...” Believed what? That they were children of God? No, they believed in Jesus who was raised from the dead. <<< Then what was the point of Paul telling them they are children/offspring of God? Just something nice to bring up? Conversation starter? Because that is what Paul preaches! He meets them where they are and turns them to Christ. (go back and read 17:16-18 and 17:2-3 and 18:4) <<<<< I am not sure what you are getting at here? I never said Paul did not preach this? My point was how he was presenting the gospel to them and encouraging them as to how they are viewed by God. Yes clearly the belief is whether or not Jesus truly was raised from the dead. I never said that it was not what their belief was about so your statement here is very confusing. There are few main things that are presented here from Paul for one to believe about what He is saying to them. We are all offspring of God, God is part of everyone as that is the reason we are alive, breath, and why we have consciousnesses (not my words but Paul's), there is only one God not gods and all that exist is through and because of Him, we cannot make up a god and all of a sudden it becomes real, the real God does not dwell in man made temples, there will be a day of righteous judgement by Jesus as appointed by God, and the proof of that is because Jesus rose from the dead which is proof to all men that Jesus was the Christ. So there were actually several things laid out for them to believe. The scoffing was on multiple things by people who believed they worshiped many gods, their gods dwelling in the Greeks man made temples, that they pleased their gods by making statues and sacred places for them, gained favor by their gods through rituals and so fourth, and that doing all these things could gain them a favorable place in Hades, the unfavorable were viewed as in constant misery or just lost, fleshly pleasures and lots of wine in the afterlife. So yeah Paul was throwing a lot at them.
Other than in Jewish worship and knowledge, the idea of a Resurrection was not taught anywhere else in the world in religions. When you died, you were very very dead and that was the end of you and very much so according to Greek mythology, spent the rest of your soul life in Hades (the realm of the dead). There are many many concepts the Greeks had about Hades, but that can become rather lengthy. This whole concept was brand new to pretty much everyone except for the Pharisees who did believe in it and the Sadducee's who did not believe a resurrection was even possible and was debated among those two groups constantly and was the reason there were the two groups.
You also said: Regarding what I bolded above: The Bible teaches that in order to be saved one must believe in Jesus. Salvation is by faith alone in Him alone. It always has been and always will be. Teaching anything other than this is not Biblical, and it breaks rule number 1 of the forum. <<< Lets look at rule number one then. First off, I only believe salvation is through Christ and there is no other way and have stated that several times on this forum. I am posing a few questions above and not as a statements. See the question marks at the end of my sentences? The only statement I made was that she is not wicked or evil solely based on her beliefs. And even then that is posed more as a question more than anything. Asking a question is not debating. Asking difficult questions is not breaking any rules. God is Salvation and this is the meaning of Yeshua/Jesus name and I am not saying anything against that or different then that. So if someone stands before God and He is salvation, then He is the one who does the saving. Is that not correct? Honestly from some of your response it seems like you did not read all that I wrote or are maybe misunderstanding or I was not very clear and need to clarify.
1. No debating core doctrines of the Christian faith. <<< Didn't do that. If you are participating here you should be a committed Believer. Seekers and non-Christians are more than welcome also, but this is a forum that honors God's Word and therefore arguments against His Word aren't for this forum... questions are welcome though! For purposes of this forum, "core doctrines" are considered to be the historic tenets of Christianity: One self-existent God, <<< Believe thatthe Trinity, <<< Believe thatthe Incarnation, <<< Believe thatthe virgin birth, <<< Believe thatthe full deity of Christ, <<< Believe thatthe substitutionary atonement, <<< Believe thatthe literal and physical resurrection of Christ, <<< Believe thatsalvation through faith alone in Christ alone, <<< Believe thata literal and future bodily resurrection of the dead, <<< Believe thatand a historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture. <<< This is debatable and not a core doctrine, just a way of understanding and reading. More opinion than anything honestly Premillennialism, <<< Believe that a literal rapture of the Church to Heaven, <<< also debatable and certainly not "core" doctrine. Believing in a literal rapture has nothing to do with ones salvation. This is again opinion/theology related. and a literal/historical interpretation of Genesis 1-11 are also considered core doctrines. <<< Believe that
Not seeing were I broke any rules here other than maybe not completely agreeing or possibly opposing your personal beliefs/theology and you taking that as rule breaking or that what I was trying to express was misunderstood and maybe I need to clarify or write it out better?
This post was created by someone who is experiencing a pretty heavy spiritual battle and having conflicting emotions and understandings regarding several things. I am not trying to convince him of anything or prove anything. I have had these very same thoughts many times myself as have many others. My intent was to show a way to possibly view those who are hard to love in a more positive way by giving an example from scriptures and give real life scenarios to think about, encouragement and hope. How did I do anything other than that? Was it because I pointed out that Paul did not say anything about Hell or annihilation? I am not making that up, he did not even hint at such a thing and something of that nature would be completely unknown to Pagan Greeks. I think I presented this very appropriately, lovingly and with many examples from scriptures and then you come in and accuse me of rule breaking and then go on picking certain parts of scripture examples given to fit your view point and pretty much ignoring the rest of what Paul was saying because he is actually being pretty straightforward to those in Athens about what he is saying in regards to them being the offspring of God, we only exist and come to being because of God, God breathes His very life through us, all things exist through God, God doesn't need anything from us to do anything because He provides everything, idol worship is meaningless, there is only one God and Jesus was raised from the dead to prove all that Paul was saying. Jesus is able to love all, restore so many who were hurting, sick, or possessed without them doing anything to receive it, and look upon them with pity, love his enemies, and always forgive and have understanding for our bad decisions and wicked ways because of what Paul is describing who we are to God. If you want to believe that someone is not an offspring or a child of God until they believe Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead for our forgiveness and overcoming death then that is your personal choice. That is not however what Paul is saying above at all. He does not say only believers are offspring or children of God or that you will or could become a child of God, but that we (as in addressing the pagan Athenians) are offspring of God because He created us and we only live because of Him. How is that wrong? Isn't that what makes a child a child? Because their parents created them? A child does not one day decide that they are a child and their parent are really their parents. That is nonsense. He was giving the Athenians encouragement! The OP is asking for prayers on not seeing people is such a dividing way as "us" and "they" the unbelievers and why God loves him and for understanding regarding that. Your attitude in your reply to me was really unnecessary. I am misunderstanding your tone in your response than I apologize. Jesus did not attack people when he walked this earth for individual sins, he did not go after or condemn homosexuals, adulterers, thief's, pagans, and even those that he pointed out to not believe who he was, he asked them to believe what he did was because of God. He actually spent a lot of time with those who were considered "sinners" and looked down on by society. The only things Jesus condemned, hated, accused was the organized, controlling, and corrupt religions and that people would rather believe their own lies verses the truth. He pointed out their lying and loveless hearts, false self's, arrogance and the burdens they placed on people who wanted to worship and love God, with their rules and laws that the majority of the religious leaders didn't follow themselves. Jesus hated mans actions and thinking that their works and abilities gained their salvation and forgiveness and when the religious leaders heard this wasn't the case, their lies and thievery pointed out, and their religion being threatened as completely pointless, they hated it and hated the one telling the truth. He hated the lies, the falseness, the religion, and the hardened hearts, not the people.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 23, 2019 14:02:35 GMT -6
There are a number of prayer requests that I could put here. Prayers for healing, prayers for salvation, etc. For me personally, however, the one prayer request I have at the top of my list right now, is that I can come to an understanding of why God loves me. I know many people will jump to the reaction of "because He made you" or something similar, but ... that's not quite what I'm getting at. It may sound selfish, but while I have my faith, I also have a very hardened heart towards the lost. In fact, I pretty much don't care that much for the generic "they" who are out there chasing wickedness. After many years, I believe the problem for me when it comes to loving others, is that I hate myself. I see no value in myself, or the things that I do. I need to understand *what* my value is. Beyond simple cliche repetition of scripture about how God is love, etc. I need an understanding of the core. What do I bring to the table? Why did God simply not just nuke Adam & Eve and start over until someone got it right? What is so valuable in any of us that God consistently puts up with the wickedness of His failed (of their own choice) creation? He is God. He can create. He can destroy. Why is He wasting time with us? Why does He waste time with me? Why send a lamb, let alone His own Son to die for me? I have put this here as a prayer request, because I am not sure anyone can answer that for me but God. If I am to learn to see humans even remotely the way that Jesus did, this is something that has to change in me. Thank you. Praying for you neural and I pray you will find peace and understanding with what you say above is troubling your heart and soul and God guides you to the answers you seek. I listened to a sermon recently and a very valid point was brought up, actually a few. The pastor was so cautious to present what he did knowing it was a very touchy and difficult topic. Here are the verses he based his sermon on. Ironically much like back then when Jesus actually spoke to the Jews and Pharisees and they wanted to stone him for saying He and God were the same, the pastor received much conflict for his sermon on this topic. He had to have prepared himself for the lash backs which mainly were on social media. I am going to point out a few of the main ideas that were presented. 34Jesus replied, “Is it not written in your Law: ‘I have said you are gods’b ? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse Me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”
The word Jesus uses for gods is: From Strongs: 2316 theós (of unknown origin) – properly, God, the Creator and owner of all things (Jn 1:3; Gen 1 - 3).[Long before the NT was written, 2316 (theós) referred to the supreme being who owns and sustains all things.] Jesus is referencing to Psalm 82: 1God has taken his place in the divine council;in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:2“How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3Give justice to the weak and the fatherless;maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. 4Rescue the weak and the needy;deliver them from the hand of the wicked.” 5They have neither knowledge nor understanding,they walk about in darkness;all the foundations of the earth are shaken. 6I said, “You are gods,sons of the Most High, all of you; 7nevertheless, like men you shall die,and fall like any prince.” 8Arise, O God, judge the earth;for you shall inherit all the nations!
The pastor brought up an interesting idea. We are in a way a part of or an extension of God. Think about a child for example.They are fully human, just tiny, limited in their knowledge and understanding of the world and especially the knowledge of good and evil at younger ages, and are made up of their parents DNA and cells. They are a physical and genetic extension of their parents. If never taught however, a child is not aware of the dangers of getting into cars with people they do not know and what that could lead to or that walking out into the road can be very dangerous. Their ignorance is also their innocence and can be a double edged sword. Children act as a reflection of their parents. They mimic and see themselves through their parents. They experience themselves and base their reality on their parents and what they are taught as they grow. They are innocent of evil and the knowledge of it until they are shown or experience it. This is no different for us and God. If we are given an image of God that is only wrathful or that our sins just tip the pot for him and that he cannot get past them, they we are going to experience Him this way and reflect Him to others this way. This representation of God keeps us separated from Him and also our unique oneness with God in being created in His image. This is not being presented to say we are gods worthy of worship or on the same level as God or that we can make ourselves like God, which was the lie that caused sin when told to Adam and Eve. Some say that unbelievers are not children or offspring of God until they accept Jesus as their savior. Once they believe Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, then “poof” they are children of God. As you say above it is almost like the lost or unbelievers are viewed at a lower or different level. I do not say this directly just to or at you, just an observation of how "they" are viewed more times than not. This difference in views of dividing unbelievers as in an essence bastards, and believers as the children of God is a tragedy. It has caused such a rift and placed a line between humanity experiencing the gospel. This is not said to condemn anyone at all. We are all guilty to judge and hold ourselves over something or someone all the time. Sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. Paul in Acts however paints a very very different picture of who unbelievers and the lost are. In Acts 17 Paul is addressing the city of Athens, which was full of idolatry, pagan gods and so fourth. Notice what Paul calls them and refers to them as. Children of God. Some versions say offspring of God. He does not condemn them for their pagan beliefs and immoralities, but tells them WHO THEY REALLY ARE and to repent from thinking gods can be made and shaped by human hands or needs our participation and devotion to achieve and earn their (idols or even Gods)love, will or ways. 22Then Paul stood up before the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. 27God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’a As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’b 29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination. 30Although God overlooked the ignorance of earlier times, He now commands all men everywhere to repent. 31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice (righteousness in the Greek according to strong's and some versions use righteousness) by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising Him from the dead. >>>> The word in the Greek for children/offspring in the above verses is 1085 Genos: family/offspring. Whether we believe or do not believe, we are a part of Him. Notice what Paul doesn’t do. He doesn’t say believe the gospel or forever be destroyed or experience eternal tormented in Hell. He doesn’t give them an ultimatum or tries to plead with them to believe what he is telling them or their souls are on the line. HE SAYS NON OF THAT! He calls the men of Athens, who were notoriously homosexual and extremely promiscuous and worshiped a different god for everything, children of God and reassured them that God is not far from any of us. neural Your value is that you are you and there is only one you. Your value is you are not afraid to ask questions and seek meaning. God is not offended by our ponderings and even confusion. Creation has not or is not failing. It is in bondage yes and in disorder being under the bondage of sin, because of humanities pride and arrogance. It is this very pride and arrogance that leads to our evil choices and ways. But creation is also not finished or in its finality. God is not all and all yet. There is another chapter yet ahead for His creation and his children are included in this next chapter. There has been somewhat of an error in teaching and understanding (imho and I am certainly not a know it all or a pro at really anything) that all of humanity is destined to be destroyed or worse because of the first sin and the only way to avoid that is making sure you know Jesus is your savior and that this outcome was known by God before creation and he went ahead and made us anyways. According to majority of the Christian teachings most of Gods creation is destined for hell. HOW FREAKING DEPRESSING! To think God created us just to see if we would love Him and if we didn’t, were subject to eternal torture or doom either by His hand or allowance or His inability to love us enough so we would love back enough and believe in Him. Do parents base their love for their children on how much their children love them first or if they do at all? Many believe and teach it’s the enemies goal to keep unbelievers as unbelievers and dead to their sin and possibly damning their soul forever and think this is the most evil thing to be an unbeliever on purpose and unbelievers are wicked. To keep someone from believing in Jesus for their salvation is cause enough to torment them forever and ever. Like we are an item to be collected in a jar...However maybe is it more effective for the enemy to convince us God created us but that we are worthless and a lost cause to Him unless we in an essence have our information and facts straight on what is and isn’t the gospel among the myriads of denominations that now exist. Better pray to God as an unbeliever the church they decided to finally attend was the right one! Because we are taught that we are so full of wickedness and evil that we are practically helpless to our sin. Not saying that we we are not to an extent. The saying “you are what you eat” is very appropriate here. If we are fed constantly that we are so absolutely horrible, vile, worthless and broken, we are going to believe it and act on it. Wouldn’t it be more effective for the enemy to cast doubt and fear on us about Gods love and forgiveness. That at some point He gives up on us and cast away those who decided to not believe. To deceive us that Gods love and forgiveness does have limits and we are the deciding factor on His love, mercy, salvation and forgiveness. This deception is based on unbelief as basically being the unforgivable sin. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is discussed as the unforgivable sin and understanding that is a whole study course in itself. Say someone is an strict atheist. Absolutely believes in science and facts only. However they devote the much of their freetime and income visiting third world countries feeding starving children, opening an orphanage for them, and helping mothers to care for their children and teaching them things for their health and safety. I have an old friend that does this. She travels all around the world getting waitressing or any job she can and saves up enough money to travel from country to country helping homeless and starving children and families, volunteers in the orphanages, and teaching the importance of clean water, hygiene, health, child care and sex education on how STD's and AID's are transmitted and that these diseases can be transmitted to babies when born and so fourth. She is part of a small non profit organization. Pretty much her entire life is devoted to loving and helping the poor, outcast, and those in dire need. She has caught Malaria twice from sleeping in such remote parts of the jungle and from staying in small villages and similar. She is also an atheist. I really cannot see that if she died today as an atheist and stood before God that He would say this to her: "You have devoted your life, time, and money to helping the poor, rejected and unloved and having minimum personal or material items. You lived among them expecting nothing in return. Even though you served many and sacrificed your own comforts, wellbeing and health to give and help, you did not believe in or accept Jesus as your savior. Because of this you are condemned and will serve eternity in hell" (either as being destroyed to eternal dust or sent to unimaginable torment based on whatever one believes). Would God send someone to hell or annihilation for this? For in many ways acting like Jesus did and wants us too. She certainly does and acts more like Jesus than I ever have in my life. Is she evil or wicked for her disbelief? Anymore than those of us who do believe? No she isn't. I know the usual response to this is "well that's a nice thought and all but she will pay the price for her disbelief no matter what she has done with her life or what she dealt with as a child." That was her choice to not believe is the general attitude. I really admire and look up to my friend and her devotion and love for others. She grew up in a very torn and sad home as a child and spent the majority of it by herself. Both of her parents owned a shop and when she came home from school and on most weekends was home by herself for hours. They usually did not come home until 8 or 9 pm and sometimes later. She was an unexpected baby to parents who were older. She had a couple much older siblings who lived out of town and had families of their own. Her loneliness broke my heart and hers so much more. When I would spend the night at her house in my early teenage years I would wake up hearing her crying in another room. I would go and sit with her and she always talked about how alone she was and how much she hated it and that she felt like an outcast and accident whose parents did not have time for. It didn't help that she lived in the middle of nowhere so there was no other kids or neighbors she could visit without taking a hike. She took her very painful childhood and turned it into something very beautiful and humble. Paul says the exact opposite above. God is not served (or relies on) or is complete because of our deeds or actions because He does not need anything from us to give life and provide all things because only He alone can do that. His will does not wait on ours. We have been taught for hundreds and hundreds of years that our existence started off as futile and is headed for destruction or worse unless God at some point in our lives exposes us to the gospel and we believe it. We have been convinced we are a basically a mistake and God is continually trying to fix us and sent His Son to mend a mistake. But that is not so. God is working on and with us and is always for us. He is not against us and not so offended by our sin that we are repulsive to him until we believe in Jesus. God is continually helping us to become more in His image. Humanity isn’t there yet clearly because we are constantly trying to fix ourselves and control everything, even the things we cannot control. But Paul very clearly says above that we are in Him, live because of Him and have our being because of Him. Even though my friend is an atheist, God is the driving force behind her decision and very generous and giving way of life. She is a child of God. When we understand this and see our fellow humans in this light, we stop seeing a "they" amongst humanity. The dividing line that is created by seeing and "us" and "they" dissolves away and God is seen more and more in everyone. He is seen in the unbelieving Muslim moving boulders and parts of a collapsed building due to being hit by a bomb to save whoever he can ignoring his own injuries in the pursuit and hope of saving a life. He is seen in the lesbian first responder weeping behind the ambulance at the sight of seeing a child dead from child abuse and wheeling away their little body onto the ambulance or the wiccan volunteer devoting their free time to holding premature babies who would never get held in the local NICU. Babies who need that comfort to thrive and grow. These people are not utterly wicked in their unbelief, they are lost and do not know who they are. But God does and regardless of their ignorance He works in and with them to do good. This was a lot longer than I intended it to be. I don't expect anyone to agree with me nor do I think my point of view is better or right. Honestly sometimes I feel like the village crazy lady around here. But I do know one thing with every fiber of my being and that is this. “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin..... 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 15, 2019 20:11:05 GMT -6
neural , First it’s ok to question and wonder about these things. I know in some circles asking questions of these nature get you looks and responses like you have the plague or that it’s offensive to God. If our finite limited understandings, pondering and insecurities are offensive to an infinite God, we are in trouble folks. Second it’s not really that hard to wonder about the why. How many denominations are there now? Over thirty thousand and all with their differences on what, who, why, and when Jesus died on the cross and what exactly that means and what God meant for it to be. Honestly its exhausting both mentally and emotionally. With all all these differences in denominations, translations, teachings, theologies, and so on there are thousands of versions of God being presented! Makes my brain want to both implode and explode at the same time. Wonder what that would look like? Superplode lol 😂 There are churches that teach eternal torment for unbelievers, that God expects us to be perfect, that we have to follow a certain set of rules or rituals to be saved or should adhere to after being saved, say the sinners prayer at the alter just to be sure, good works and deeds to do to keep you saved, if your under a certain (but an uncertain age) you are automatically saved, that “unsaved” or non baptized babies can even go to hell (sick and thanks for that foul idea Augustine...), that God hates us and as an absolute last resort sent his son to do us all a favor, that we are saved from God (somehow this one doesn’t get questioned more), that God and Satan are in a never ending battle for our souls like we are a touchdown or slam dunk between the two of them, aaaaaand I am sure we all get the picture of the chaos and calamity that bunches itself under the name of Christianity. What I just listed unfortunately is just a drop in the bucket of theological and denominational differences and beliefs. Little bit of an off beat thought. When Jesus said many will come in his name claiming to be Him over here and over wherever, I don’t think he was just talking about individual people, I think he also meant entire religions and beliefs... Why did God send His son for us? Why does He love us? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF ALL OF IT?!? Why does a parent live their child? Is it something the child did or is doing to earn their parents love? Is it their behavior, appearance, personality, obedience, their love for their parents, their good deeds, or ability to everything exactly as their parents expect them to? Is it because the child makes the choice to love their parents or their ability to accept their parents love? The child’s belief and faith that the parent loves them? Is it enough belief or faith that seals a parents love for their children? Does a parent say to their child that they only way they the parent can love them is if the child believes and has faith the parent loves them first? If the child doesn’t believe or have faith that the parent loves them, then well sorry kiddo you made a bad choice! That last part is unfortunately is not at all far fetched and yet how many churches teach that is how God loves us and is His character and nature!??!!! A parent loves their child before even meeting that child. Everyday while that child grows in the womb for unknown conscious reasons that child is loved and yearned for everyday until they arrive. You wonder what will they look like? Smell and feel like? Will they be little and petite or big and plump when born? You hope and pray they are healthy and whole, but even if they are not you would still love them. When they are finally born their is much suffering and pain in the birthing process but once the mother sees the baby literally in a split second every ounce of pain suffering is gone. There is only love. Love so deep and so real you cry from joy. So let’s think about this. Does a parent generate or produce their love for their children? Do they manufacture it from somewhere deep inside? No it’s just there and it a way likes it’s been their are whole lives. Like it never did not exist. Where, how and why does our love simply exist?!? Here’s why- “Come, let us make them in our image...” Because that image, the reflection we are made from is God. Because He is love! Agape(Greek) love which is a never ending continually burning and joyous love. We are made from and with love which is why we can experience and express love. It is nothing we do or generate. It just is. We know those who are never shown love or are severely neglected or abused, especially in early childhood usually in some way become broken and or disabled. But when love is introduced and shown, healing can begin. It may not completely reverse what was done because we are human and have limitations, but the healing can be amazing and God can do amazing things. Did you know baby animals will seek comfort and security over food? Why is that? Because food doesn’t offer constant comfort. It’s satisfies for a limited amount of time and then the discomfort of hunger returns. But love, reassurance, security and warmth can be experienced for as long as it’s offered and available. God doesn’t limit or cut off His love and it’s not based on our love for him. If that were so than humans would be capable of more love than Him. We would be able to generate perfect love from our own will and doing. He said in the beginning His creation was very good. I really think this gets taken for granted when we insert our ideas of justice, judgement, and fairness into God. Keep digging Neural. Getting outside of religious rules, theologies and constraints can be very freeing.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 13, 2019 12:29:57 GMT -6
I read a story about a Chinese pastor who was captured by the Chinese government in the 80’s or early 90’s and tortured for weeks in ways that made me ill to even try to comprehend such pain and horror.
They would strap him in a chair, completely naked in a 50 degree room for days, pulled teeth out of his head, put acid under his nails on both hands and feet with syringes, broke his bones little by little, beat him, used cattle prods in very unfortunate areas and you know what he did during all of it?
Laughed.
He laughed and laughed and laughed. He would scream and even pass out from the pain at times, but would always laugh when he could. They would ask him to renounce Christ and to stop teaching his “cult” to end the torture and he laughed no matter what they did to him and would reply, “God is so much bigger than YOU! No matter how much you hurt or torment me or even kill me, He still loves you too and His love is bigger than any pain or even death.” This pastor drove these men nuts and so much so in fact that they finally let him go. Some of them secretly admired him and told him so and that because he never gave up, they believed too. These men that saw the light through his immense suffering were the ones who convinced the others to let him go.
The pastor said at night, even in the cold darkness while lying on a concrete floor, through the starvation and torture, God gave him rest and relief and he was able to sleep. He knew in no matter what God never left.
As he was released the men told him to stop preaching. He didn’t and the experience only made him go and preach more and practically as soon as he left. He told of his experience, the men who saw God, and that these men and the government acted out of fear and control.
Do you see what kept this man going? Did he hate or loath these men or tell them their actions were sending them to hell?!? Did he threaten them with damnation and eternal torment thinking that ought to get them to see who God REALLY is or believe in Him! Scare them into believing?
No...
He knew with all his heart, soul, and mind that with all they did Gods love was bigger than all of it, even if it resulted in his death.
“Father forgive them for they know not what they do...” rang in his head over and over again he stated as they broke his bones and tormented him over and over again.
If anyone is interested in the story, I will search for it and link it here. It is amazing to read what this man endured and how God used his pain and suffering to show the depths and power of love and forgiveness.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 16, 2019 19:36:04 GMT -6
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 16, 2019 18:35:09 GMT -6
I think the topic has more in common with Calvinism than you realize. I will watch the video and see how it ties in to the topic. I really disagree with this thread or topic being similar to Calvinism or the topic of restoration/reconciliation from any sort of theology or research. John Calvin had people hung for basically not agreeing with him. People over the last couple thousand years have been brutally murdered and tortured for speaking of the salvation for all. This isn’t a new “worldly” view or hippy new age take of the gospel. It has records going back as early as 115 AD and is what was commonly taught. Eastern Orthodox still teaches it and for the most part always have. They did not give in to the teachings of eternal torment in Hell and in certain regions paid dearly for it. This was a western theology that started in Europe, eventually followed to the states (although was condoned in the beginning and part of why the pilgrims fled) and ironically seemed to coincidence as “truth” around the time when church and government became tied together at the hip in Europe and even more so after Dante’s inferno. Tithing used to be a tax, not a choice and so was going to church. If you didn’t you do either you were accused of being a witch or devil worshiper and killed. The information is out there for anyone to look up, it takes time and an open mind however and I realize that isn’t easy for a lot of people. It isn’t for me and there have been many many nights of me trying to refute restoration just in case I am missing something and trying to look at it as openly and hopefully as honestly as I can. This thread isn’t kept going to prove a point. I certainly cannot make someone believe anything. But I cannot ignore what fills my heart with more joy, hope and love more than I am able to express. Maybe even more than that is the freedom and rest it has laid on my soul. Why? Because it has shown me that no matter what happens in this life, no matter how much I or anyone screws up, God has it handled and there is no uncertainty or miss understanding that He doesn’t or can’t. I don’t have to rely on my sinful and limited understanding to make sure I haven’t screwed up my salvation or forsaken my soul. It has taught and opened me up to a deeper level of forgiveness that I never knew before. My marriage, parenting, family and friendships are met with a softer heart and as time goes on more love and compassion.
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Bob hope
Sept 9, 2019 21:51:17 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by cwood85 on Sept 9, 2019 21:51:17 GMT -6
Thank you for sharing this beautiful story.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 6, 2019 12:33:26 GMT -6
Gary did a good article on conditionalism. I don't know if it's right, but it makes the most sense to me. Yes, eternal life vs perish. John 3:16 This whole thread was started trying to show that everyone is saved in the end. Some of us are trying to show that the Bible does not teach that. I have yet to be shown a verse that says anything like that. You have been shown multiple verses. There are 20+ pages of this entire thread and dozens of links, books, studies, videos, and even ministries for additional research and information. But for simplicity's sake, here is a verse that imho cannot be anymore blunt or straightforward: 10For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. There are many others besides this one, but when referenced and even this verse quoted, they are said as being taken out of context. So I am confused as to your above statement about not being shown any verses because when they are given, they are being taken out of context.... Here is a list of bible verses to look up and research on what they are stating: Colossians 1:15-20
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
1 John 2:2 (NIV)
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Romans 6:10
For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
2 Corinthians 5:15
He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
Romans 5:6
For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Luke 23:34
Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do”.
John 4:42
Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world (kosmos).
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world (kosmos).
Luke 19:9-10
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
John 12:32-33 (NIV)
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23a
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order…
1 Timothy 2:3-6 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have (thelo) all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Ephesians 1:9-10
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth – in Him.
Isaiah 25:7-8
7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.
Isaiah 45:22
Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
Psalm 98:1-3
1 Oh, sing to the LORD a new song! For He has done marvelous things; His right hand and His holy arm have gained Him the victory. 2 The LORD has made known His salvation; His righteousness He has revealed in the sight of the nations. 3 He has remembered His mercy and His faithfulness to the house of Israel; All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.
Psalm 22:27-29
27 All the ends of the world Shall remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations Shall worship before You. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s, And He rules over the nations. 29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.
Romans 5:8, 10
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Psalm 66:3-4
3 Say to God, “How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. 4 All the earth shall worship You And sing praises to You; They shall sing praises to Your name.” Selah.
Psalm 110:1
The LORD (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son), “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
Hebrews 10:12-13
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Hebrews 10:14-17
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those (His enemies) who are being sanctified. 15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them (with His enemies) after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their (His enemies’) hearts, and in their (His enemies’) minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their (His enemies’) sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Matthew 5:43-44
43 You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.
Isaiah 45:25
In the LORD all the descendants of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.
Romans 5:18-19
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many (all) were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many (all) will be made righteous.
Hebrews 12:11
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Isaiah 46:12-13
12 Listen to Me, you stubborn-hearted, Who are far from righteousness: 13 I bring My righteousness near, it shall not be far off; My salvation shall not linger. And I will place salvation in Zion, For Israel My glory.
Malachi 3:2-3
2 But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire And like launderers’ soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.
Isaiah 45:23-25
23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. 24 He shall say, ‘Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory’.
Philippians 2:9-11
9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Revelation 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Revelation 21:1-6 1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away”. 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new”. And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful”. 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End…”
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 6, 2019 9:59:44 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts. I will take time to think on it some more. About this last part - it probably depends on if you hold to eternal torment or to conditionalism. If it's a second death and then they perish (destruction, cease to exist) then, yes no one is left in eternal torment. But it still shows that not everyone ends up in the kingdom/heaven. Some go to the lake of fire and the second death. I always have to look up those 'isms, but yes, conditionalism goes back all the way to the two trees in the Garden. One is the tree of (Eternal)life, the other is the tree of the knowledge of Good and the knowledge of evil. It is well known among behavioral scientists that if you can think something, you are quite able to do it and our propensity in this world(6000 years) is toward evil, or sinning, missing the mark, etc. The wages, of course, is death. Not the death that happens to every living creature on Earth, that's a given because we wear out, but the second death. Final destruction, removal from existence. It clearly states in Rev. 21:8 that some will suffer this fate. Is there a verse or verses somewhere that states that everyone will end up in Heaven? I mean, I'm sure our Heavenly Father would like everyone to be in His Kingdom, but, it's clear to me that that is not going to happen.
Another thing that I think has been misconstrued down through the ages is the eternal "torment" thing. I'm thinking it should be eternal "life" and eternal "death". period. I'll have to do some studying on this, but I'm thinking the "torment" or "punishment" worked it's way in to mainstream Christianity to scare the masses into going to church.
Going to ask questions with what I have bolded above. I have many things to say in this thread and questions being posed and simply have not had time to sit down and type it all out. It is written out and is a bit lengthy, however as I do not want to say things from my own vanity or anything of that nature and want to answer in ways to get people to thinks deep and search things out. Not to prove who is right or wrong or entirely understand and view any of this in absolutes. I have bolded what I am going to comment on here in regards to your statements above. 1. Death does currently happen to every living creature on earth because we do wear out, but that was not always the case. In Genesis it clearly references how long people used to live for shortly after the fall. Some lived to be almost a thousand years old and this length of life shortened as more time spanned after Adam and Eve. The length of life seemed to drastically change after the flood. There are a lot of theories going around as to why that is so I will not get into that here. But I will pose a question in regards to the second death, death is a negative thing as is the grave (hades), so if death is "killed" which is a double negative, how can that be another negative in being permanent death? 1 = death -1 = 2nd death 1 - (-1) = --1 <<<< Not mathematically possible. Two negatives always cancel eachother out or flip to create a positive. 1 minus a -1 will always just equal 1, a positive number or outcome. 1 - (-1) = 1For us to live, our cells have to basically die over and over again to create NEW cells. They sacrifice themselves on a continual basis to allow life to continue on. And back to Revelation 22:3 in stating "No longer will there be anything accursed," (or as some translations states no more curse or any curse) wouldn't eternal death or annihilation be an eternal curse? It's definitely not a blessing.And to pose some information to think about in regards to no chance of salvation after death and this life being our only chance, later in Revelation 22 seems to paint a different picture: 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” 14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.... 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.These verses are after the Lake of fire in chapter 21, AFTER this happens:5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7“He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” These folks went into the lake of fire and if adhering to the annihilation or conditionalism theories, where do the people from chapter 22 verse 15 come from? 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying...."
This is the end of Chapter 21 into 22:
22I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. 1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
If we say this life is our only chance and that's it and the GWT judgement is final , than what does "its gates will never be closed" The city is the new jerusalem, the kingdom of God or heaven and this says it's gates will never close, but we are taught that they do close... again just some things to think on.
2. To add to the church making eternal torment to get people to come to church, this was also done to keep people from reading or owning the bible themselves and scaring them into paying the mandated church tithes. If you didn't, this is why people were burned at the stake, to emphasize the torment of a fiery hell. Sometimes I don't see this too differently now, believe the gospel of avoiding hell, go to church, pay tithing and be very guilt tripped into paying as I have witnessed pastors myself do. Get the offering plates and then hand them back for a second round to get more. What a bunch of jerks. There is nothing new under the sun and nothing ever changes.
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Post by cwood85 on Sept 5, 2019 9:13:57 GMT -6
The past few days I have been thinking about the Savior on the day of Atonement. I think most of all he demonstrated his absolute control over the physical body to the point that the body did not control him in any way. It was like a used up item that had fulfilled it's purpose and was no longer needed. Thus, he endured the pain and suffering that was inflicted upon him but the physical body was to be cast off and away. So it was not so much the body but the unyielding experience to which he submitted himself to the will of the Father that was at the heart of the experience. Just how far was he willing to go? He yielded himself to devils to do with as they wished. The torture to which any degree of doubt, any ounce of self regard, or any possible consideration for anything but obeying the Father would have proved catastrophic. Thus, he in perfect submission to God the Father; suffered, and bled, and died the physical death. All of this after having lived a perfect life having no sin what so ever. NO, not a bad or evil thought nor anything in the slightest that approached the classification of sin. No, he had such control over his body that temptation of the flesh was foreign to his entire demeanor. So, the only possible weakness sought by the devils was mental. They knew that he was the Savior of the world; those devils possessing the deranged devils all of which engulfed upon him that one fateful day. If only they could cause one minor sin in him then they would win. So beating his body was simply the beating down of the Christ to crush him under their weight of wickedness to cause one small sin of any kind. Anything! Yet, his submission to the Father was unyielding. He took all that the devils could dish out and in that submission had divine authority over sin. He took from them their power over mankind. No longer could they dominate sinful man but refuge was in the Christ of the world. Man was free from sin at last. Thus, as scripture tells us, He washed us in his blood; we are clean. Now, some church doctrines define the demarcation of exactly when a sinful person is free from sin. Yet, according to the act of the atonement the Savior himself forgave everyone. So there is no line of demarcation of when a sinful person is free from sin except that they accept that eternal payment that frees their soul from sin. No, nothing but that one on one salvation between the sinner and their God. There are however other rewards than salvation and it is there that we grow. Thus, salvation is not the end but the beginning of our relationship with God. For example, the reward of participating in the salvation of others. This action rewards us as members of the family; to care about the peaceful eternal experience of others: empathy for the lost soul. Etc. So now we have the distinct honor of participating in the Savior's return. We having salvation and watching and waiting. Thank you Gary for creating this site so that we can encourage others toward salvation in Christ. boraddictSometimes you surprise me in the best of ways with the things you write ❤️
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 30, 2019 17:32:21 GMT -6
What is going on here Venge??!!!?? 🤣🤣😂😆🤪😅
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Post by cwood85 on Aug 30, 2019 13:25:53 GMT -6
How so, cwood85 ? Did not satan already set the precedent, being the pinnacle of beauty and wisdom, yet he still chose destruction? I mean, that is exactly what satan tried to do, supersede God with his vanity and pride. I don't think that is possible, God being: the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, etc. One cannot question God's Holy Spirit. I think that is why it is unpardonable. How do you feel if someone questions your spirit? Only you know your mind, how can someone question that? The same for God only multiplied by Infinity!
In my mind, it is important that in God's Kingdom that we choose salvation so that His Kingdom is only made up of those who want/choose to be there. He's not going to force anyone to do anything.(one might question that in light of 'well, why did he do x or y so His people would comply." I would say, if your kid tries to touch a hot stove you might smack their hand.) It is important that we have the choice. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable. The simplicity of this is profound to me. All creation waits in eager longing for what? The all encompassing love of God's Kingdom. The revealing of the Children of God. Those who chose to be there.
stormyknight, that is what pastors for many years have taught about Satan and what He did when the bible is talking about the King of Tyre and Nebuchadnezzar and even names them in both scriptures of Ezekiel and Isaiah. THEY (the kings) let their pride get the best of them and God knocked their butts back to reality. The reference to "you were there in the beginning in the garden of Eden", is talking about the pride and vanity of humans being there from the very start because that is what caused us to sin in the first place, thinking and being deceived into believing we could be like and at Gods level. This is not something I am going to debate however and would suggest some books on studying Hebrew and Aramaic literacy and poetry in writing/literature of the scriptures. VERY eye opening and informative. "I would say, if your kid tries to touch a hot stove you might smack their hand.) It is important that we have the choice. Says who and why? Just trying to further understand this is all, not accusing or anything. But on the other side of that, if one does not choose life, God, in His infinite wisdom, has the power to remove that person from existence so that they and anyone connected to them is not miserable." Please use scripture for this last sentance because I don't know any that reference this and would like to study it more. I am sorry, but to me this is a contradiction. On one hand, we humans will keep our children from danger and even reprimand them for putting themselves in danger, but God in his infinite wisdom doesn't do the same to give us finite humans choice?!? Please also back up your last sentence that I quoted with scriptures. ________________________________________ "Hey Billy, don't cross the busy road because you could get hit by a car. We are your parents and we are telling you to not cross the road." Billy ignores his parents warning and tries to cross the road. Parents gets more stern with Billy in concern of his safety and well being. As soon as his parents stop watching, he tries again not believing his parents warnings or taking them seriously. Billy isn't fully aware and cannot completely comprehend the extreme danger of a car hitting him and causing such blunt force trauma, that it will most likely kill him. He just wants to get to the other side of the road and that is all he is thinking about. What he wants. This happens several more times and Billy's parents are getting worn out and frankly a bit fed up with their stubborn and disobedient child. "Alright Billy, this is your last chance, if you try to cross that road again, we are not going to stop you. You have been given more than enough warnings, and we have now several times had to pull you away from the road and you just keep going back! So if you try to cross the road again, we are not going to stop you. We are going to give you the opportunity to make the choice for yourself on what is best for you. We wouldn't be good parents if we didn't let you decide this for yourself." Billy turns around looking at the colorful park across the street he had been longing to play at all morning and then turns to look at his parents who are just sitting and chatting at a park bench. Billy decides to give it a go and risk crossing the road. He disobeys his parents initial warnings and thinks he has a pretty good chance at dodging the cars. Billy didn't factor in the brush however in the medan and comes out from behind it after crossing the first lane and a driver does not see him until it's too late. Billy was hit and instantly killed. The driver gets out of the car mortified and sick with grief upon hitting and killing this boy. He turns and see's a couple by a bench wailing and sobbing across the road. "Is this your son?!?" The driver calls out. "Yes! We tried and tried to warn him and stop him but he just wouldn't listen to us!" "What?!?" replied the distraught driver, "you LET him cross and didn't stop him! You gave up and let him walk into harms way?!?" "Yes, we did everything we could but didn't want to force him to do something he did not and make him miserable, so we let him choose because he isn't a robot and we didn't want him to feel that way. We wanted our son to learn a valuable lesson on his own." But Billy never learned the lesson, because Billy was DEAD!!! Were Billy's parents being just and sovereign? No! They were being HUGE jerks! This in our society would be considered neglect and extreme child abuse and endangerment. Even manslaughter to a degree and Billy's parents would be in prison. So what would good and loving parents really do? Maybe give him a pop on his behind if he really kept at it or ground him and tell him if he tries to do that again, they will not go to the park to play in a little bit like they had told him they would and he just needed to listen and be patient. He needed to rest and trust that his parents knew best for him and loved him. ________________________________________ When I read some of the statements here, this is what I think of at least in real world scenarios. Sorry if they are vivid, my mind is a bit vivid and often scattered lol.
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