neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 11, 2019 15:07:15 GMT -6
Eternity. We end up in one location or another, based on our faith.
One who believes spends eternity with God.
One who does not believe spends eternity apart from God.
That eternity apart from God has been described in many ways, all of them pointing towards one description: A place of eternal and unimaginable torment.
I would wager that if a believer spent so little as a minute in the hell that non-believers are destined to go, that upon returning to this world, the believer would spend every waking minute, risking any outcome, desperate to find even the most heinous individuals to save them from it, to the point they would likely die of exhaustion from refusing to sleep because of the gravity of the knowledge they possessed from their experience.
I would go so far as to say that someone who spent a minute in hell, would endure the worst torture a human could imagine here on earth, if it meant saving someone from eternity in hell.
This is something that has disturbed me for a very long time: If hell is so bad, that I would be willing to do such things, why would God prevent such things from happening to me, as a believer, if it meant the salvation of another?
I cannot see any scriptural support that says God loves me enough that He would protect me from a death akin to what we have seen other Christians go through in the middle east, if it means the salvation of another person. It seems to me that the body of Christ, especially here in America, has this concept that God loves us so much, that He's going to keep us from such torment here in this life. I would go so far as to say that having the mindset of simply having faith that God will protect us is a bit ludicrous.
I'm not denying that God has the ability to keep us from experiencing such things, there is no doubt there, but I am unable to see how God's love for His children supersedes His desire for the lost to return to Him. I would ask for scriptural reference to support the idea that we would be protected from such ends, but at the same time one could point out the deaths of the apostles, just to start, as an indication otherwise.
Yes, my problems with this are rooted in fear, and telling me "that's what the devil wants" does absolutely zero to help any objection to the issue I'm bringing up.
This one issue dogs me constantly, and has done so for a very long time. Moreso in recent years due to an experience I had with the removal of some skin cancer from the bridge of my nose. I had a moh's procedure done about 5 years or so ago, and while the surgery was fine, the doctors office prescribed only Tylenol as a pain killer for after the local anesthetic wore off. For me it is humiliating to even recall the events of that night, because I experience pain like nothing I have ever experienced. So intense and mind-breaking that I was praying to God to take it away, and that I would not wish this sort of pain on anyone, not even the most evil people in the world. It was like someone was using a hammer, slamming it up against the bridge of my nose constantly.
I would hope no-one else here has had personal experience that put them in a similar situation, but when you are in so much pain that is so intense that you are begging God to take it away and telling Him that you wouldn't want such things to come upon even the most wicked people on earth, it changes you. For me, among other things, it brought to mind this issue of how we, as Christians, seem to think that God is going to protect us from people who would deliberately do such things to us, especially if our experience in such pain would potentially bring someone else to Christ.
I am seeking scripture that says otherwise, but I have not yet found any.
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Post by mike on Oct 11, 2019 20:06:53 GMT -6
Great questions! Some of us may be able to relate, perhaps most to not evangelising constantly 24/7/365
This entire question is very complex and you are bound to many varied replies.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 13, 2019 12:29:57 GMT -6
I read a story about a Chinese pastor who was captured by the Chinese government in the 80’s or early 90’s and tortured for weeks in ways that made me ill to even try to comprehend such pain and horror.
They would strap him in a chair, completely naked in a 50 degree room for days, pulled teeth out of his head, put acid under his nails on both hands and feet with syringes, broke his bones little by little, beat him, used cattle prods in very unfortunate areas and you know what he did during all of it?
Laughed.
He laughed and laughed and laughed. He would scream and even pass out from the pain at times, but would always laugh when he could. They would ask him to renounce Christ and to stop teaching his “cult” to end the torture and he laughed no matter what they did to him and would reply, “God is so much bigger than YOU! No matter how much you hurt or torment me or even kill me, He still loves you too and His love is bigger than any pain or even death.” This pastor drove these men nuts and so much so in fact that they finally let him go. Some of them secretly admired him and told him so and that because he never gave up, they believed too. These men that saw the light through his immense suffering were the ones who convinced the others to let him go.
The pastor said at night, even in the cold darkness while lying on a concrete floor, through the starvation and torture, God gave him rest and relief and he was able to sleep. He knew in no matter what God never left.
As he was released the men told him to stop preaching. He didn’t and the experience only made him go and preach more and practically as soon as he left. He told of his experience, the men who saw God, and that these men and the government acted out of fear and control.
Do you see what kept this man going? Did he hate or loath these men or tell them their actions were sending them to hell?!? Did he threaten them with damnation and eternal torment thinking that ought to get them to see who God REALLY is or believe in Him! Scare them into believing?
No...
He knew with all his heart, soul, and mind that with all they did Gods love was bigger than all of it, even if it resulted in his death.
“Father forgive them for they know not what they do...” rang in his head over and over again he stated as they broke his bones and tormented him over and over again.
If anyone is interested in the story, I will search for it and link it here. It is amazing to read what this man endured and how God used his pain and suffering to show the depths and power of love and forgiveness.
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Post by venge on Oct 14, 2019 5:41:22 GMT -6
“I cannot see any scriptural support that says God loves me enough that He would protect me from a death akin to what we have seen other Christians go through in the middle east, if it means the salvation of another person. “
Isn’t that pre TB? The idea we won’t go through tribulation/persecution and save others by staying faithful through great adversity and refining ourselves as gold so that when Christ appears, we will not be ashamed that we fall into temptation at his appearing and his kingdom.
I wonder, with your question here and the original one with hell, does God’s wrath need to be 7 years? Doesn’t that sound long for a loving God whose mercies endure forever wishing that all come to repentance? And after the wrath of 7 years, he says that he’s not done with them, and there is more wrath added to that 7 years that is eternal. An eternal wrath in fire. Whereas the great commandment is Love thy neighbor as thyself and thy God. So if God loves all and he wishes we do the same, even our enemies as God loves his enemies...why put enemies in eternal torment after 7 years of wrath?
Which, I’m not sure if either are intended. There are consequences, without a doubt, but this? Are these things doctrine of man or of God?
(No need to reply)
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 15, 2019 0:56:57 GMT -6
venge, This was, for me, more about trying to get to the reality of what can happen, vs. what the church has so often taught through the years (some have taught in the churches I've been in over the years, that while we will certainly face tribulations, that those who are faithful will be rewarded with protection from some of the atrocities that have happened to others in the past). I believe this is a view that needs to be removed. The post was aimed at trying to see if there is any scripture that supports that teaching. I certainly know that put into the same situation that cwood85 brought up, I would fail completely. I certainly do not love humans as that man did.
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Post by venge on Oct 15, 2019 4:58:16 GMT -6
I do not know of any scriptural support that would confirm us being removed from tribulation. Christ and Paul spoke extensively on the subject to their fellow believers. In each instance, we are warned to remain faithful, to not lose hope, be fervent in prayer and continue the gospel.
If I were to be in tribulation, could I love my captors? I’d like to say I would, but I don’t know.
How can any Christian that has never endured violent tribulations be strong enough if those same tribulations give us experience to grow and refine us making us ready. I have never been chased, beaten, stoned, spat on or tossed in prison for my belief. I have been cursed and yelled at.
I don’t think any one wants to be tried. It’s frightening. But I can tell you, I’d rather be tried to strengthen myself so that I don’t fall into temptation than to have life easy as it is, thereby not knowing I fell when I did. I’ve prayed to the Father of Lights to do what he will with me, but don’t let me be blind. Pre TB will not preach that because they believe they won’t endure it. That is a scary thought: The idea that if you’re wrong, you may not be prepared when it comes.
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neural
Truth Seeker
Posts: 113
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Post by neural on Oct 15, 2019 13:18:00 GMT -6
venge, I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. While the subject does open up the issue of the meaning/interpretation of "not appointed for wrath", I'm more concerned about just life in general. Christians do not need to be paranoid about persecution of the most horrible types, but I think there is an unhealthy mindset among many in the church that "because -reasons- God will protect us". Whether they believe that protection would come in the form of the rapture or not isn't really relevant. What I'm looking for here is information on where in scripture people have gotten this mindset that God wouldn't allow one of his children to be tortured to death in order that someone else might believe. Deeper beyond that, I am trying to understand how God's love can be found within that. This ties back to the biggest struggle of my life, and that is understanding God's love in the first place (I realize that some people will not understand that because it's very easy to say "He let his own Son be killed so that you could be forgiven", but that's not where my struggle is. I want to know *why*)
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Post by venge on Oct 15, 2019 13:49:28 GMT -6
venge, I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. While the subject does open up the issue of the meaning/interpretation of "not appointed for wrath", I'm more concerned about just life in general. Christians do not need to be paranoid about persecution of the most horrible types, but I think there is an unhealthy mindset among many in the church that "because -reasons- God will protect us". Whether they believe that protection would come in the form of the rapture or not isn't really relevant. What I'm looking for here is information on where in scripture people have gotten this mindset that God wouldn't allow one of his children to be tortured to death in order that someone else might believe. Deeper beyond that, I am trying to understand how God's love can be found within that. This ties back to the biggest struggle of my life, and that is understanding God's love in the first place (I realize that some people will not understand that because it's very easy to say "He let his own Son be killed so that you could be forgiven", but that's not where my struggle is. I want to know *why*) Idk why people think that. I believe God does allow his children to face torture like beatings, crucifixion etc because it does brings others to him. For me, it’s not about how much he loves me. It’s that I love him, enough to suffer for him. Not because he asked me, but because I love him, will stand up for him and believe in him. Like Polycarp said (paraphrasing) before his death- All my life, he has never done me any wrong. But I guess that is not what you’re looking for. I suppose why did his son die for us? It was prophecy from God. And he does what he promises. So where is the love? Why did God let his son die for us besides forgiveness? So that we should not perish but have everlasting life with him. Can’t it be enough for a creator to love his creation enough to sacrifice for it, knowing the end result is better which lasts forever? I will think about scripture regarding this. If I find something useful, I’ll post back. |
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Post by stormyknight on Oct 15, 2019 14:43:17 GMT -6
venge , I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. While the subject does open up the issue of the meaning/interpretation of "not appointed for wrath", I'm more concerned about just life in general. Christians do not need to be paranoid about persecution of the most horrible types, but I think there is an unhealthy mindset among many in the church that "because -reasons- God will protect us". Whether they believe that protection would come in the form of the rapture or not isn't really relevant. What I'm looking for here is information on where in scripture people have gotten this mindset that God wouldn't allow one of his children to be tortured to death in order that someone else might believe. Deeper beyond that, I am trying to understand how God's love can be found within that. This ties back to the biggest struggle of my life, and that is understanding God's love in the first place (I realize that some people will not understand that because it's very easy to say "He let his own Son be killed so that you could be forgiven", but that's not where my struggle is. I want to know *why*) Not sure if this helps or not, neural , but it has nothing to do with the coming tribulation that is to punish the world.
"“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.” Heb. 12:5-6
"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:" 2 Sam. 7:14
So you see, when we suffer trials/tribulation/affliction/etc. in this life, it is because God loves us and he disciplines us with the "rod of men" or rather tools of this world. What are you suffering from? poverty? illness? a bad boss? all are products of this world. I'm not saying all of these things come from God every time they happen, but if you are being tried, these things can be used to make you grow. That is also to say, He will use these tools and not fire from Heaven or a tornado or an asteroid on your house to set you straight.
"Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed. Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears." Heb. 12:12-17
But as for protection, Satan quoted verse 11 and 12 to Jesus in the desert.
"Because you have made the Lord your dwelling place—
the Most High, who is my refuge—
no evil shall be allowed to befall you,
no plague come near your tent.
For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways.
On their hands they will bear you up,
lest you strike your foot against a stone." Psalm 91:10-12
But I think verse 10 would apply to us if we are making the Lord...Jesus...our dwelling place.
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Post by cwood85 on Oct 15, 2019 20:11:05 GMT -6
neural , First it’s ok to question and wonder about these things. I know in some circles asking questions of these nature get you looks and responses like you have the plague or that it’s offensive to God. If our finite limited understandings, pondering and insecurities are offensive to an infinite God, we are in trouble folks. Second it’s not really that hard to wonder about the why. How many denominations are there now? Over thirty thousand and all with their differences on what, who, why, and when Jesus died on the cross and what exactly that means and what God meant for it to be. Honestly its exhausting both mentally and emotionally. With all all these differences in denominations, translations, teachings, theologies, and so on there are thousands of versions of God being presented! Makes my brain want to both implode and explode at the same time. Wonder what that would look like? Superplode lol 😂 There are churches that teach eternal torment for unbelievers, that God expects us to be perfect, that we have to follow a certain set of rules or rituals to be saved or should adhere to after being saved, say the sinners prayer at the alter just to be sure, good works and deeds to do to keep you saved, if your under a certain (but an uncertain age) you are automatically saved, that “unsaved” or non baptized babies can even go to hell (sick and thanks for that foul idea Augustine...), that God hates us and as an absolute last resort sent his son to do us all a favor, that we are saved from God (somehow this one doesn’t get questioned more), that God and Satan are in a never ending battle for our souls like we are a touchdown or slam dunk between the two of them, aaaaaand I am sure we all get the picture of the chaos and calamity that bunches itself under the name of Christianity. What I just listed unfortunately is just a drop in the bucket of theological and denominational differences and beliefs. Little bit of an off beat thought. When Jesus said many will come in his name claiming to be Him over here and over wherever, I don’t think he was just talking about individual people, I think he also meant entire religions and beliefs... Why did God send His son for us? Why does He love us? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF ALL OF IT?!? Why does a parent live their child? Is it something the child did or is doing to earn their parents love? Is it their behavior, appearance, personality, obedience, their love for their parents, their good deeds, or ability to everything exactly as their parents expect them to? Is it because the child makes the choice to love their parents or their ability to accept their parents love? The child’s belief and faith that the parent loves them? Is it enough belief or faith that seals a parents love for their children? Does a parent say to their child that they only way they the parent can love them is if the child believes and has faith the parent loves them first? If the child doesn’t believe or have faith that the parent loves them, then well sorry kiddo you made a bad choice! That last part is unfortunately is not at all far fetched and yet how many churches teach that is how God loves us and is His character and nature!??!!! A parent loves their child before even meeting that child. Everyday while that child grows in the womb for unknown conscious reasons that child is loved and yearned for everyday until they arrive. You wonder what will they look like? Smell and feel like? Will they be little and petite or big and plump when born? You hope and pray they are healthy and whole, but even if they are not you would still love them. When they are finally born their is much suffering and pain in the birthing process but once the mother sees the baby literally in a split second every ounce of pain suffering is gone. There is only love. Love so deep and so real you cry from joy. So let’s think about this. Does a parent generate or produce their love for their children? Do they manufacture it from somewhere deep inside? No it’s just there and it a way likes it’s been their are whole lives. Like it never did not exist. Where, how and why does our love simply exist?!? Here’s why- “Come, let us make them in our image...” Because that image, the reflection we are made from is God. Because He is love! Agape(Greek) love which is a never ending continually burning and joyous love. We are made from and with love which is why we can experience and express love. It is nothing we do or generate. It just is. We know those who are never shown love or are severely neglected or abused, especially in early childhood usually in some way become broken and or disabled. But when love is introduced and shown, healing can begin. It may not completely reverse what was done because we are human and have limitations, but the healing can be amazing and God can do amazing things. Did you know baby animals will seek comfort and security over food? Why is that? Because food doesn’t offer constant comfort. It’s satisfies for a limited amount of time and then the discomfort of hunger returns. But love, reassurance, security and warmth can be experienced for as long as it’s offered and available. God doesn’t limit or cut off His love and it’s not based on our love for him. If that were so than humans would be capable of more love than Him. We would be able to generate perfect love from our own will and doing. He said in the beginning His creation was very good. I really think this gets taken for granted when we insert our ideas of justice, judgement, and fairness into God. Keep digging Neural. Getting outside of religious rules, theologies and constraints can be very freeing.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Oct 16, 2019 8:58:22 GMT -6
was looking for some specific verses to add to cwood85 , and I came across Job 12 Isaiah 40 The Lord God is above ALL ALL things. This includes satan. We can not even begin to understand His ways, right? |
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Post by raindrop on Oct 16, 2019 10:13:59 GMT -6
barbiosheepgirl, I have wondered why God placed me in this body, time and place. I could have been born into Nazi Germany..become a brain-washed Nazi and done despicable things. I could have born into a Chinese body and grown up in Mao's China. Hideous thought. Almighty God knew me from the beginning. Almighty God places the spirit of man into his body. He knows every hair on your head. He knew you would grow to be a believer. He knows your strengths and limitations. He knows what we can bear and what we cannot. We are all here to learn. This life is one big learning curve. The fact that He has blessed me with a fairly normal life is something I give thanks for everyday. God loved my spirit and placed it into a body that would not need awful, barbaric lessons inflicted upon it, in order to seek Him. The letters to the 7 churches in Revelation hold specific reasons why they will suffer hardship. Their very location, for one! Thank the LORD I am not a Christian in the Middle East. My spirit was placed in a body that lives in the 1st world. A lot of stuff is confusing and distressing but I take great comfort in the absolute knowledge that Almighty God knows EVERYTHING. He saw the end from the beginning and He is a just and merciful God. Trust Him with all your heart, soul and mind. All will be made clear.
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