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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 28, 2017 10:30:33 GMT -6
@silentknight , I understood disciple4life to mean that the entire sign has not yet been fulfilled because there hasn't been a rapture, which he feels fully fulfills the Sign. Only the first two verses have been fulfilled, so technically the Rev 12 sign has not been fulfilled, if the rapture event is also part of it. Really though, there's a whole other sign in the text too that seems to be part of it. Maybe the Dragon sign also needs to be fulfilled before a rapture event, so really the whole Rev 12 sign is both the constellation alignment, the Dragon Sign, and the rapture event. I think this is about "labels." What is meant when someone says "Rev12 Sign?" Does it just mean the alignment in verses 1-2? Or Does it mean verses 1-2 & 5? Or does it comprise all 5 verses? Maybe we need to start distinguishing the specific signs within the chapter, for example, The Rev 12 Sign of the Woman, the Rev 12 Sign of the Dragon and the Whole Rev 12 Sign. Or something along those lines to help clarify what we are talking about. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 28, 2017 11:58:38 GMT -6
Hello my brother. ;-)
Actually there's a link on this thread - (I haven't read the article yet) and Paul Begley has a You-Tube video - (very short 4-5 minutes ) that shows that the Sanhedrin declared Last year was the Jubilee year. ;-(
I really think people are stretching things on this one. I hope this is the year. I pray that it is this weekend. I see tons of natural disasters, bizarre and record-breaking weather - hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, and we are on the brink of war with NK. -What's more, Israel becoming a nation, and Jerusalem are two huge cornerstones of Eschatology that have been fulfilled. -I'll be honest it feels like labor pains - I struggle to understand how all these dates can line up and the eclipse on the 1st of Elul and the 40 days to Day of Atonement, and then what seems blatantly clear - like a 7 day warning (from the Sept alignment to Day of Atonement) if this is not the Year.  What am I missing. ?
-If we are correct in understanding Jesus' words about the fig tree being Israel - and his words of this generation not passing away - then we are at the 70 year mark - a generation, and that window is closing very quickly. 3-4 years max. ?? I'm only human - a watchman doing the best I can to study, and listen and walk in humility. At the same time - people are not practicing sound Hermeneutics. The Jubilee was claimed and proclaimed last year - No evidence anywhere in scripture that it was EVER practiced by the Jews. No Evidence from anyone I have seen or heard that anyone can prove that any year was a Jubilee year, or even which calendar to use. All it says in the passage of Leviticus about Jubilee is that a trumpet should be blown on Day of Atonement. - It tells us the month and the exact day. That part is as crystal clear as anything in scripture.
In all honesty - I get annoyed and irritated by people who claim that the Rev 12 sign was fulfilled. Really? Was there a harpazo event and no reports of anyone missing? I know that we still have to the weekend. What then?? - will people then say that the best date is Feast of Booths? It's already written that it will be fulfilled at the end of the age. Maranatha. come quickly Lord Jesus.
, I totally agree with you in regard to our lack of knowing which year was / is a jubilee year. But I am genuinely curious about your position on the alignment that took place on 9/23-9/24. You say "I get annoyed and irritated by people who claim that the Rev 12 sign was fulfilled." I promise I'm not arguing. I do feel differently than you on this point, but I am very interested in how you explain what took place? 1. Do you believe the alignment was merely coincidental? That it had no meaning whatsoever? 2. Do you believe that it was a sign from God, but not related at all to the first couple verses of Rev 12? Hello SK -- I don't feel you're arguing. I respect your views, my brother, and I think you've seen I value robust discussion and different perspectives ;-)
I'll try to clarify briefly -- I've always said the alignment is very very interesting, and it's NOT NOTHING. The sheer timing of it makes it very significant to anyone and everyone who studies eschatology. Like pastor Steve Cioccolanti said, and/or Cornelius Jones at the very least it's something to look into. I've heard so many prophecy teachers say it was on Feast of Trumpets - either out of total ignorance, or trying to make it fit.
A total solar eclipse is black and white. pa dump. There's really nothing to interpret. They have been seen as omens by millions of people for millennia. Their connection to historical events is virtually unchallenged. The fact that the Total Solar eclipse crossed seven cities named Salem, was way beyond coincidence, and the real kicker was the fact that it was 40 days before Day of Atonement. I questioned/ and still do whether the Sept alignment has never occurred before - and won't occur for the next 1000 years. Anyone who is being honest, would concede that up until the 25th, we only had half of a sign, that required the speculation that we take a chapter out of the middle of Revelation, and assume that 'this special case' warrants taking a verse out of the larger context. [The Trib is the Time of Jacob's trouble, and for those who have rejected the Messiah, and after chapter 3 the church is gone - not mentioned at all until chapter 19. ***This is the same thing that the "No One Knows the Day or Hour" crowd does - take a passage that is clearly referring to the end of the age - it is after the Abomination of Desolation and doesn't refer to the rapture. I have great respect for the watchman who has studied the Stellarium, really. ;-) - i think he's one of the very first to talk about it years ago. But when he said that he has looked 1000 years into the future with the software, and is sure that it doesn't occur again, and then the next day, he happens to see a better alignment, and now the dragon is visible - all the sudden. ? I believe that the alignment happened, just as predicted. It looks a lot like things in Revelation. I believe very much in the convergence of signs - eclipse, 1st of Elul, 40 days before Day of Atonement, brink of war with NK, micro-chip technology. Record breaking hurricanes, earthquakes, fires, and it looks at this point that the September alignment is the parallel to the 7 day warning before the flood. ;-) I believe deeply that it got more negative coverage from the media, but that this caused more people to know about it, than would have. I hope and earnestly pray and expect that the Harpazo event will happen on Day of Atonement this year. I have made arrangements to give a key to our apartment to a friend and my banking information, along with a Bible and information about what happened. - If nothing happens on Day of Atonement, I think we face the scoffers and look for the Feast of Trumpets next year. Feast of Booths is at the end, and will be fulfilled and celebrated by all nations, Jews and Gentiles. Zechariah This one is out. It Can be eliminated.
This is my take, - i am a watchman like all of you. I'm human, and believe that we learn by sharing the pieces of puzzle we have. Maranatha.
Hope it helps clarify.
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Post by thetimeoftheend on Sept 28, 2017 12:32:11 GMT -6
disciple4life, brother, can you please clarify the point about mirroring the 7 day prior to the flood? Astronomically? When I read that portion I perked up. I've really enjoyed reading your insights, and would like to know more in this one.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 13:44:13 GMT -6
disciple4life, Thanks for your explanation. This helps me understand your position better.
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Post by kjs on Sept 28, 2017 14:13:38 GMT -6
@silentknight , I understood disciple4life to mean that the entire sign has not yet been fulfilled because there hasn't been a rapture, which he feels fully fulfills the Sign. Only the first two verses have been fulfilled, so technically the Rev 12 sign has not been fulfilled, if the rapture event is also part of it. Really though, there's a whole other sign in the text too that seems to be part of it. Maybe the Dragon sign also needs to be fulfilled before a rapture event, so really the whole Rev 12 sign is both the constellation alignment, the Dragon Sign, and the rapture event. I think this is about "labels." What is meant when someone says "Rev12 Sign?" Does it just mean the alignment in verses 1-2? Or Does it mean verses 1-2 & 5? Or does it comprise all 5 verses? Maybe we need to start distinguishing the specific signs within the chapter, for example, The Rev 12 Sign of the Woman, the Rev 12 Sign of the Dragon and the Whole Rev 12 Sign. Or something along those lines to help clarify what we are talking about. That is how I have it split out in my mind as well.... There are two signs spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6 -- with the Great Sign being in verses 1-2 and then 5-6 The "other Sign" is verse 3-4. Too date I see only verse 1-2 as have taken place (or possibly only verse 1 -- since how does the sign in heavens show birth pains). I do believe the "RAPTURE" is accurately identified in verse 5 So in my opinion -- the sign has only been partially fulfilled...... |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 28, 2017 15:52:40 GMT -6
That is how I have it split out in my mind as well.... There are two signs spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6 -- with the Great Sign being in verses 1-2 and then 5-6 The "other Sign" is verse 3-4. Too date I see only verse 1-2 as have taken place (or possibly only verse 1 -- since how does the sign in heavens show birth pains). I do believe the "RAPTURE" is accurately identified in verse 5 So in my opinion -- the sign has only been partially fulfilled...... Yes ! Missusmack and Yes! KJS ;-) You both have articulated it so well. I agree. I really hope and pray that i can learn and share with others, and that I really do respect and value others' opinions - different perspectives are like the facets of a diamond. I do believe that we are all watchmen and women on the same journey - watching expectantly for the return of Christ. For those who are Mid trib - I really would like to learn more - but I don't know if that means we eagerly look forward to the start of the Tribulation. I do want to clarify with @silentknight, kjs, MissusMack08, whatif, Rick mike, socalexile, profalphdthd others, that i believe the September alignment will be perfectly fulfilled on Day of Atonement. ;-) I can't understand how or why we would have all the signs, and convergence of signs and dates, and significant numbers, and eclipse and extreme, record-breaking hurricanes, and fires, and earthquakes and microchips and the Sept alignment 7 days before Day of Atonement - If this were all for nothing. I don't think Christ tells us to "Watch" if there's nothing to watch for. ?? :-) Why would he tell us explicitly that there would be signs in the heavens and Moadim, appointed times, that point to things to come, if they didn't serve to warn or tell us what's coming. ;-) I love this forum and I'm sorry if I seemed dogmatic or combative - it's not my desire. If we aren't raptured, then i will be back here, encouraging each other on, as we see the day approaching. ;-) Looking for the next Feast of Trumpets, and being faithful in Poland. I couldn't sleep two nights ago - thinking about Sebastian - a guy God put in my life. I dont' want to lose all credibility, -- what if he thinks I'm a freak. What if nothing happens - Saturday and Sunday are normal days, and I've told him about the sign, I feel that it is better that than have to be at the Judgement and have him say - You're a missionary, and you didn't warn me - You didn't tell me about the hope you have?? I'll meet with him tomorrow. Please pray God will prepare his heart.
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Post by Rick on Sept 28, 2017 16:01:19 GMT -6
disciple4life , I don't feel you're dogmatic, I feel your compassion and the longing for Our Blessed Hope. I will certainly pray for you and Sebastian!
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 28, 2017 16:03:21 GMT -6
@silentknight , I understood disciple4life to mean that the entire sign has not yet been fulfilled because there hasn't been a rapture, which he feels fully fulfills the Sign. Only the first two verses have been fulfilled, so technically the Rev 12 sign has not been fulfilled, if the rapture event is also part of it. Really though, there's a whole other sign in the text too that seems to be part of it. Maybe the Dragon sign also needs to be fulfilled before a rapture event, so really the whole Rev 12 sign is both the constellation alignment, the Dragon Sign, and the rapture event. I think this is about "labels." What is meant when someone says "Rev12 Sign?" Does it just mean the alignment in verses 1-2? Or Does it mean verses 1-2 & 5? Or does it comprise all 5 verses? Maybe we need to start distinguishing the specific signs within the chapter, for example, The Rev 12 Sign of the Woman, the Rev 12 Sign of the Dragon and the Whole Rev 12 Sign. Or something along those lines to help clarify what we are talking about. That is how I have it split out in my mind as well.... There are two signs spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6 -- with the Great Sign being in verses 1-2 and then 5-6 The "other Sign" is verse 3-4. Too date I see only verse 1-2 as have taken place (or possibly only verse 1 -- since how does the sign in heavens show birth pains). I do believe the "RAPTURE" is accurately identified in verse 5 So in my opinion -- the sign has only been partially fulfilled...... Or maybe 1/2 of verse 2, because Virgo being pregnant with Jupiter was really the crux of making the Sign of the Woman completely unique. But maybe the "travailing" prior to birth described in this Sign doesn't have a specific earth fulfillment but rather emphasizes the imminence of the birth, so that we understand that the birth is coming. Especially since the Old Testament verses seem to suggest travail AFTER the birth, it doesn't make sense there would be travail before the birth too, otherwise how would anyone know what the "birth" is? On the other hand, Jesus said that wars, threats of wars, famine, pestilence, and earthquakes were all a part of "birth pains" and we know those have been going on for awhile and getting worse, so why are we looking for more/worse "travail" prior to the birth? |
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Post by yardstick on Sept 28, 2017 16:34:09 GMT -6
@silentknight , I understood disciple4life to mean that the entire sign has not yet been fulfilled because there hasn't been a rapture, which he feels fully fulfills the Sign. Only the first two verses have been fulfilled, so technically the Rev 12 sign has not been fulfilled, if the rapture event is also part of it. Really though, there's a whole other sign in the text too that seems to be part of it. Maybe the Dragon sign also needs to be fulfilled before a rapture event, so really the whole Rev 12 sign is both the constellation alignment, the Dragon Sign, and the rapture event. I think this is about "labels." What is meant when someone says "Rev12 Sign?" Does it just mean the alignment in verses 1-2? Or Does it mean verses 1-2 & 5? Or does it comprise all 5 verses? Maybe we need to start distinguishing the specific signs within the chapter, for example, The Rev 12 Sign of the Woman, the Rev 12 Sign of the Dragon and the Whole Rev 12 Sign. Or something along those lines to help clarify what we are talking about. I feel compelled to add in a couple comments:
1. I always considered there to be two signs. The woman as a representation of Israel is only celestially shown in verse 1. After that the passage is likely referring to the nation Israel. The dragon, then, being of the same type of sign, should render a real life sitation/person/entity/political situation, once the celestial sign has occurred (It may already have - Saturn).
2. To get technical, I would suggest that the 'great' Rev 12 sign be specified as the Rev 12:1 sign, and the dragon sign be specified as the Rev 12:3 sign. There are, after all, two signs.
3. The descriptions given in verses 2 and 4 appear to be geo-political, not celestial?
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Post by yardstick on Sept 28, 2017 16:49:35 GMT -6
@silentknight , I understood disciple4life to mean that the entire sign has not yet been fulfilled because there hasn't been a rapture, which he feels fully fulfills the Sign. Only the first two verses have been fulfilled, so technically the Rev 12 sign has not been fulfilled, if the rapture event is also part of it. Really though, there's a whole other sign in the text too that seems to be part of it. Maybe the Dragon sign also needs to be fulfilled before a rapture event, so really the whole Rev 12 sign is both the constellation alignment, the Dragon Sign, and the rapture event. I think this is about "labels." What is meant when someone says "Rev12 Sign?" Does it just mean the alignment in verses 1-2? Or Does it mean verses 1-2 & 5? Or does it comprise all 5 verses? Maybe we need to start distinguishing the specific signs within the chapter, for example, The Rev 12 Sign of the Woman, the Rev 12 Sign of the Dragon and the Whole Rev 12 Sign. Or something along those lines to help clarify what we are talking about. That is how I have it split out in my mind as well.... There are two signs spoken of in Revelation 12:1-6 -- with the Great Sign being in verses 1-2 and then 5-6 The "other Sign" is verse 3-4. Too date I see only verse 1-2 as have taken place (or possibly only verse 1 -- since how does the sign in heavens show birth pains). I do believe the "RAPTURE" is accurately identified in verse 5 So in my opinion -- the sign has only been partially fulfilled...... I would like to suggest that the woman (who is represented by the celestial woman in verse 1) is not yet travailing. So, IMHO, verse 1 is fulfilled and possibly verse 3, if Scotty's explanation of saturn is accurate. |
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 28, 2017 17:40:36 GMT -6
disciple4life , brother, can you please clarify the point about mirroring the 7 day prior to the flood? Astronomically? When I read that portion I perked up. I've really enjoyed reading your insights, and would like to know more in this one. Hello Timeoftheend. I'm not sure it fits, but i thought of the passage in Luke 17:24-30. It says that the Coming of the Son of Man will be like the days of Noah and the days of Lot. I went back and read the stories again. Noah was given 7 days warning before the rain actually started. It was a perfect picture of the rapture. Not a surprise for the righteous - those paying attention. Then i read the story of Lot. He was warned by the angels. Even his future sons in law were warned but didn't listen. - didn't believe the angels. I see the parallel between the 40 days from the eclipse to Day of atonement. 40 is always the number of testing -- all through the Bible. It just happened that the great eclipse was on the 1st of Elul. - this began the 40 days of repentance.
There are 7 days from the Revelation sign and Day of Atonement. I always said i didn't know what the Revelation sign means, but it is something significant. Not sure what you mean by astronomically. If Christ returns on Day of Atonement, it would be a perfect, ultimate fulfillment of Day of Atonement but also Jubilee, - The land was returned to the rightful owners. The Jewish Sanhedrin acknowledged, that 1967 WAS a Jubilee year - but they also agreed that they could not start the count retroactively. So they decided to start the Jubilee count in 2015. What if Christ -re-establishes the Jubilee - returns the land to the rightful owner - Proclaiming freedom. Just wow. ;-) This is what I'm looking for and praying for. Maranatha.
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What am I missing. ? 
