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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 31, 2017 23:21:57 GMT -6
Today someone told me that there will be no Tribulation Saints because the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth when the Church is raptured. They also told me that only the 144,000 Jews will be saved during the 7 years.
I know that there is the possibility the two groups mentioned in Revelation, the martyrs under the altar and the enormous group holding palm branches could be symbolic of martrys over the last 2000 years and the raptured church, respectively, based on rt's "Revised view of the pre-trib rapture" so I'm uncomfortable using those verses to support Tribulation martyrs.
The only evidence I could come up with off the top of my head for Tribulation Saints was Rev 12:17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Is there any other scriptural indication that gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation? How do I refute this claim?
For the other assertion:
I know there is a case to be made that the Church is the restrainer not the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't exactly answer my question. Also, I'm pretty sure more than 144,000 Jews will be saved since Zechariah says 1/3 will be saved. There are over 6 million Jews living in Israel today and 13 million worldwide, and we know more will be going into the land. Unless something happens to decimate their population before the Tribulation begins, I can't see how 144,000 would represent a 1/3 of it.
Any more evidence?
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 7:14:35 GMT -6
Well Missus Mack that sounds silly...who would the 2 witnesses be preaching to (Rev 11)? Why have them here on earth at all so they can be killed half way through? to help God execute judgement? I dont think so. Who would the angel be preaching to (Rev 14)? who would the 144k be preaching to? REV 11:13 " And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." REV 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." REV 14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - what happens if they dont take the mark? they arent tormented are they?
Sometimes I step back and ask the not so obvious questions. I used to say things like "its not in the bible so it didnt happen or cant be true" God has shown me not everything is in the bible. We cant ignore the "obvious". What do I mean you ask  Things like - Gen 6"4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." There isnt much more written about them, but there is a lot history surrounding them right? - Ancient structures. Bones. - dont mean to diverge. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 1, 2017 7:38:04 GMT -6
Well Missus Mack that sounds silly...who would the 2 witnesses be preaching to (Rev 11)? Why have them here on earth at all so they can be killed half way through? to help God execute judgement? I dont think so. Who would the angel be preaching to (Rev 14)? who would the 144k be preaching to? REV 11:13 " And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." REV 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." REV 14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - what happens if they dont take the mark? they arent tormented are they?
Sometimes I step back and ask the not so obvious questions. I used to say things like "its not in the bible so it didnt happen or cant be true" God has shown me not everything is in the bible. We cant ignore the "obvious". What do I mean you ask Things like - Gen 6"4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." There isnt much more written about them, but there is a lot history surrounding them right? - Ancient structures. Bones. - dont mean to diverge. Thanks, Mike. I'd forgotten about Rev 14:6. That's pretty clear it not just to the 144,000. I was trying to stay away from verses that could be used just for the conversion of the 144,000, like the one about the witnesses and Rev 11:13 (because the city is Jerusalem.) yes, it's silly. I was flabbergasted, especially since I respect this person and they go to my church. This person was accusing me of wasting time debating over signs when I should just be spreading the gospel (I finally brought it up on Facebook and in a way that got people to comment instead of just ignore like they tend to do if I post an article or video). When I asked if the sign couldn't be used to share the gospel, this person said no. Then I found out it's because they don't believe there's any hope once the rapture occurs—that the Holy Spirit leaves with the Church and nobody can get saved after that, except the 144,000. So if I tell someone about the Sign and they wait to see it before accepting Christ, they are doomed. How horrible. I did ask this person what the purpose of the book of Revelation is if only 144,000 Jews can be saved. It seems silly to me that God would bring judgment on everybody in the whole world with no mercy for seven years just to throw them all into the Lake of Fire at the end. Edit: "So if I tell someone about the Sign, they wait to see it before accepting Christ, and the rapture does occur, they are doomed." |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 1, 2017 7:42:07 GMT -6
I did find after looking,
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
Why is there a test if no one can pass it?
And Matt 24:31-46: the separation of the sheep and goats.
who are the sheep?
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 8:02:01 GMT -6
There you go! (BTW - I didnt mean you were silly either). It sounded silly to me cuz some people dont think. Or at least it seems that way to me. I might venture to "bet" this person heard this someplace and didnt study it out or think it through.
Your last line "It seems silly to me that God would bring judgment on everybody in the whole world with no mercy for seven years just to throw them all into the Lake of Fire at the end." really brings it home too. God desire all to come to repentance. Think about this...Does God still love those who've rejected Him? Yes right. Does He stop loving them even though they have rejected Him and do end up eternally separated from Him? No! Challenge this person to THINK!
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Post by mike on Sept 1, 2017 8:04:10 GMT -6
One other thing I learned here on Unsealed was the structure of the book of Rev and some other areas. I believe SoCal pointed it out a few weeks ago, maybe. Chiastic writing. Just because Rev 11 comes after 10 and before 12 does not necessarily mean it is to be read chronologically. It seems to me 12 occurs (chronologically) before 10 & 11
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Post by watchmanjim on Sept 1, 2017 10:42:59 GMT -6
Or 12 may be an overview of the entire 70th week. I'm not sure. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 2, 2017 22:03:43 GMT -6
There you go! (BTW - I didnt mean you were silly either). It sounded silly to me cuz some people dont think. Or at least it seems that way to me. I might venture to "bet" this person heard this someplace and didnt study it out or think it through. Your last line " It seems silly to me that God would bring judgment on everybody in the whole world with no mercy for seven years just to throw them all into the Lake of Fire at the end." really brings it home too. God desire all to come to repentance. Think about this...Does God still love those who've rejected Him? Yes right. Does He stop loving them even though they have rejected Him and do end up eternally separated from Him? No! Challenge this person to THINK! Yes, I don't think this person has read it in a long time. They probably heard once from a trusted pastor or someone that there was no hope for anyone except the 144,000, and so there's no point in discussing the meaning of the book. Such a shame. I did ask them those questions with those scriptures to at least, if they want to respond back, force them to look into it. On the other hand, my neighbor told me both she and her husband are watching and are right there with me. She even showed me their "rapture box"—a wooden box with several books, dvds, and whatnot for sharing the gospel and letting them (whoever loots their house) know what's going on. So I was pretty encouraged to know I'm not the only here believing I literally see prophecy being fulfilled in the sky and anticipating the rapture and final 7 years. |
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Post by linda on Sept 4, 2017 16:09:53 GMT -6
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Post by disciple4life on Sept 5, 2017 7:17:14 GMT -6
Well Missus Mack that sounds silly...who would the 2 witnesses be preaching to (Rev 11)? Why have them here on earth at all so they can be killed half way through? to help God execute judgement? I dont think so. Who would the angel be preaching to (Rev 14)? who would the 144k be preaching to? REV 11:13 " And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." REV 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." REV 14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - what happens if they dont take the mark? they arent tormented are they?
Sometimes I step back and ask the not so obvious questions. I used to say things like "its not in the bible so it didnt happen or cant be true" God has shown me not everything is in the bible. We cant ignore the "obvious". What do I mean you ask Things like - Gen 6"4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." There isnt much more written about them, but there is a lot history surrounding them right? - Ancient structures. Bones. - dont mean to diverge.
Hello Mike, Great point. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would or could think that that rapture is Post-Trib. It doesn't make sense at so many levels. First one being that why would Christ rapture the saints at the end, (take them up) and then immediately go back down for the second coming to the mount of Olives?? 2. In Daniel we have written to the very day how long the last half will be 1290 days, and the middle point being the abomination of desolation and the two witnesses killed. How much more of a clear sign can you have than that. See the witnesses killed, and you know exactly how many days til the second coming. 3. The "No One Knows the day or the hour" passages that so many people parrot are clearly referring to the end of the age, after great destruction and horrible tribulation - explicitly clear that this is not the rapture. 4. The biggest reason it seems clear to me is that Paul says in black and white in the greatest rapture passage 1 Thes 4: that God did not appoint us/ destine us for wrath. If the last half (great Tribulation) - with 1/3 of the trees burned up and 1/3 of the plants burned up and 1/3 of all the people killed, and 1/3 of the sea creatures killed, and the horrific bowl judgements are not wrath, - nothing is wrath.
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 7, 2017 17:23:03 GMT -6
Good call, Linda! Thank you! |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 7, 2017 17:26:15 GMT -6
Well Missus Mack that sounds silly...who would the 2 witnesses be preaching to (Rev 11)? Why have them here on earth at all so they can be killed half way through? to help God execute judgement? I dont think so. Who would the angel be preaching to (Rev 14)? who would the 144k be preaching to? REV 11:13 " And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." REV 14:6 "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." REV 14:9 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" - what happens if they dont take the mark? they arent tormented are they?
Sometimes I step back and ask the not so obvious questions. I used to say things like "its not in the bible so it didnt happen or cant be true" God has shown me not everything is in the bible. We cant ignore the "obvious". What do I mean you ask Things like - Gen 6"4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown." There isnt much more written about them, but there is a lot history surrounding them right? - Ancient structures. Bones. - dont mean to diverge.
Hello Mike, Great point. I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would or could think that that rapture is Post-Trib. It doesn't make sense at so many levels. First one being that why would Christ rapture the saints at the end, (take them up) and then immediately go back down for the second coming to the mount of Olives?? 2. In Daniel we have written to the very day how long the last half will be 1290 days, and the middle point being the abomination of desolation and the two witnesses killed. How much more of a clear sign can you have than that. See the witnesses killed, and you know exactly how many days til the second coming. 3. The "No One Knows the day or the hour" passages that so many people parrot are clearly referring to the end of the age, after great destruction and horrible tribulation - explicitly clear that this is not the rapture. 4. The biggest reason it seems clear to me is that Paul says in black and white in the greatest rapture passage 1 Thes 4: that God did not appoint us/ destine us for wrath. If the last half (great Tribulation) - with 1/3 of the trees burned up and 1/3 of the plants burned up and 1/3 of all the people killed, and 1/3 of the sea creatures killed, and the horrific bowl judgements are not wrath, - nothing is wrath.
I know there's a lot of controversy with the "watch therefore because no man knows the day nor the hour" verses that Jesus says repeatedly. It makes me wonder if DURING the Tribulation when the days are "shortened" if people will lose count of the days... |
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Post by linda on Sept 30, 2017 21:12:34 GMT -6
I know there's a lot of controversy with the "watch therefore because no man knows the day nor the hour" verses that Jesus says repeatedly. It makes me wonder if DURING the Tribulation when the days are "shortened" if people will lose count of the days... Also, I'm thinking that somewhere it says the the Antichrist changes the time and the seasons. If he goes to some completely different calendar and the days are shortened, it could very well be that people will lose track of how much time has passed. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 30, 2017 22:00:05 GMT -6
I know there's a lot of controversy with the "watch therefore because no man knows the day nor the hour" verses that Jesus says repeatedly. It makes me wonder if DURING the Tribulation when the days are "shortened" if people will lose count of the days... Also, I'm thinking that somewhere it says the the Antichrist changes the time and the seasons. If he goes to some completely different calendar and the days are shortened, it could very well be that people will lose track of how much time has passed. Yes, that's very possible. Dan 7:25: "He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time." It may be that the two go together to some extent. For example, why would someone want to change the amount of hours in a day unless the hours between sunrise to sunrise changes first? If days are shortened to a 16 hour day, for example, all technology that is set according to 24 hours and day/night cycles will be screwed up. Would a "day" still be 24 hours or would it be 16? Will people still work normal hours even if sometimes they are working at night and sometimes during the day and still sometimes both? Or will work schedules need to regulate to day/night cycles? Will people still be expected to sleep at night and work during the day (in general) even though the human body's natural rhythm is for 24-25 hours? Then, the Tribulation Saints would have to ask, is a God counting the days as 24 hour periods or 16 hour periods? What does He mean when He says 1260 days? What if it's the moon cycle for the months or the length of a year or a combination of any of the above? People would be seriously confused. |
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 17, 2017 6:53:44 GMT -6
I've been doing a study on Revelation Chapter 7 and I've found so much revealed in that chapter alone. This is from my understanding through rightly dividing the word (2 Timothy 2:15) and understanding who and what the tribulation is for. The great tribulation is known also known as "Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7). For almost two thousand years the age of Grace and the time of the gentiles have occurred and will be soon coming to a close. The age of grace by the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and the time of the gentiles (Luke 21:24) at the end of the tribulation. For reference to the time of the gentiles see here: www.endtime.com/blog/times-of-the-gentiles-fulfilled/So I don’t lose anybody with this here is a video from Robert Breaker on Kingdom of God vs. Kingdom of Heaven. It’s a great dispensational teaching and right division of the word. I highly recommend that you watch this before continuing on. The Jews back when Jesus was here had the opportunity to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven, but rejected Jesus eventually as we see in Acts. Then Revelation was given unto Paul and the Gospel was then given to the gentiles. This rejection of the Kingdom of Heaven paused Daniel’s 70th week on the 69th week. Since Pentecost the age of grace has carried on since that time to present day. The 70th week will continue in the Great Tribulation as the final 7 years (week). God is going back to dealing with the Jews in the Great Tribulation for God keeps His promises and has remained faithful to Israel because we see the greatest sign of His return when Israel was made a nation again in 1947 by UN declaration. No nation in history has ever been wiped out and brought back with all its heritage still intact. This is God fulfilling prophecy. The Church saints will not be here during the Great Tribulation. We will be raptured [ Raptus (Latin), Harpazo (Greek)] as shown to us by Paul in his first letter to Thessalonica. He even had to write a second letter to Thessalonica because someone made a false letter claiming to be Paul that the Day of Christ (Rapture) had already occurred, and Paul comforted them that this was not so (Read 2 Thessalonians 2). So the question is, will there be Tribulation Saints? Revelation Chapter 7 says yes! The 144,000 are sealed by God and are clearly 12 tribes of Israel. 12,000 from each tribe (Rev. 7:4-8). While some of the names of the tribes vary from those listed in Numbers like Dan, may have to do with the sins they committed in the Old Testament. With these 144,000 sealed by God I believe they will be under the protection of God as we see in Rev. 7:1-3 that destruction of the four angels holding the winds are told not to touch the earth, sea, and trees until all 144,000 are sealed. Something tells me that they will have a purpose in evangelizing and bring the Gospel to the whole earth in fulfilling Matthew 24:14. Following the introduction of the 144,000 we see a “great multitude” in verses 9-10. These “which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues” I believe these are your Tribulation saints who were martyred during the Great Tribulation. When the Body of Christ (Bride of Christ) is taken away, there will be those who will still turn to Christ. Another thing I want to point out is that in Revelation 4 & 5 John recognizes who the Church is in these chapters when seeing the worship occurring in the throne room. Also note that this occurs before the 7 seals are opened which should indicate that the Church is in heaven before the Great Tribulation. In Revelation 7:11-14, John does not recognize the saints worshiping in this chapter as John responds to the elders question of who the great multitude was saying, “Sir, thou knowest.” The elder then describes them as those who came out of the Great Tribulation. I could go into a deeper more explanative study, but if I do I may end up writing a book. With these things in mind it is comforting to know that even if those we share the gospel with today, and we are raptured today, the salvation of Jesus Christ still reaches into the Great Tribulation as well. Jesus died on the cross so that all may be saved even those in the Great Tribulation. |
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