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Post by grandpaskitzo on Oct 17, 2017 8:08:43 GMT -6
Today someone told me that there will be no Tribulation Saints because the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth when the Church is raptured. They also told me that only the 144,000 Jews will be saved during the 7 years. Is there any other scriptural indication that gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation? How do I refute this claim? All anyone needs to do to answer this question is to think about who our God is and why the tribulation is even happening. To even question that is to question who our God is. Our God is a God of holiness, righteousness, and love! If we understand that, then we should be able to grasp that the tribulation is not a time to just tormeant the people of the earth. That's what hell is for! Hell is the final judgment for the wicked. The tribulation is actually God's final act of grace on the earth to bring repentance and salvation. Our God is long suffering and wants every single person to be saved. As hard as it is to understand that such a terrible time is an act of grace, it is. Otherwise God would just go straight to the white throne judgement and be done with it all. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 17, 2017 9:25:45 GMT -6
Thank you, MikeTaft , for you contribution. The three points you made (1. 144,000 evangelists; 2. "Great multitude; 3. Worship in throne room by 24 elders, I'm assuming?) are indeed all scriptures that have been used in support of Tribulation saints. However, they are not explicitly identified in scripture and others have used those exact verses to support other ideas of who those groups are. The "144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes" are not explicitly called evangelists or shown spreading the gospel. This is an assumption based on other texts. A good case has been put forth that the "Great Multitude" could actually be raptured and resurrected saints. The 24 elders has been put forth as being Old-Testament saints or the "heavenly council," which are not necessarily human. I'm not saying these interpretations are wrong. However, they are interpretations and could be argued as to meaning what you say they mean. They're not quite so open and shut. When I first started out this thread, I was looking for explicit text that there would be evangelization during the Tribulation. I was looking for text that could not be interpreted in any other way, so that it could not be argued or explained away. For example, the angel in Revelation flying through heaven having an everlasting gospel and crying it out. That definitely is occurring during the Tribulation, and it is definitely evangelizing. Otherwise, what would the point of it be? I'm interested in knowing more about the 144,000. I briefly looked into it one time and couldn't find substantive scriptural support for it, and yet it seems that is a commonly accepted view of them. I'll look through the forum and see if there is already a thread about it. |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Oct 17, 2017 9:39:04 GMT -6
Today someone told me that there will be no Tribulation Saints because the Holy Spirit will be removed from the Earth when the Church is raptured. They also told me that only the 144,000 Jews will be saved during the 7 years. Is there any other scriptural indication that gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation? How do I refute this claim? All anyone needs to do to answer this question is to think about who our God is and why the tribulation is even happening. To even question that is to question who our God is. Our God is a God of holiness, righteousness, and love! If we understand that, then we should be able to grasp that the tribulation is not a time to just tormeant the people of the earth. That's what hell is for! Hell is the final judgment for the wicked. The tribulation is actually God's final act of grace on the earth to bring repentance and salvation. Our God is long suffering and wants every single person to be saved. As hard as it is to understand that such a terrible time is an act of grace, it is. Otherwise God would just go straight to the white throne judgement and be done with it all. Thank you, GPS. This is a poignant point. It just doesn't make sense that God would judge the earth (and people on it) mercilessly for 7 years BEFORE sending everyone to Hell and eventually to the Lake of Fire. But this takes thorough understanding of God's character and seeing the judgments as further wake up calls of His mercy. If someone doesn't understand that, they won't be able to necessarily draw this conclusion. |
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Post by MikeTaft on Oct 17, 2017 9:58:19 GMT -6
Thank you, MikeTaft , for you contribution. The three points you made (1. 144,000 evangelists; 2. "Great multitude; 3. Worship in throne room by 24 elders, I'm assuming?) are indeed all scriptures that have been used in support of Tribulation saints. However, they are not explicitly identified in scripture and others have used those exact verses to support other ideas of who those groups are. The "144,000 sealed from the 12 tribes" are not explicitly called evangelists or shown spreading the gospel. This is an assumption based on other texts. A good case has been put forth that the "Great Multitude" could actually be raptured and resurrected saints. The 24 elders has been put forth as being Old-Testament saints or the "heavenly council," which are not necessarily human. I'm not saying these interpretations are wrong. However, they are interpretations and could be argued as to meaning what you say they mean. They're not quite so open and shut. When I first started out this thread, I was looking for explicit text that there would be evangelization during the Tribulation. I was looking for text that could not be interpreted in any other way, so that it could not be argued or explained away. For example, the angel in Revelation flying through heaven having an everlasting gospel and crying it out. That definitely is occurring during the Tribulation, and it is definitely evangelizing. Otherwise, what would the point of it be? I'm interested in knowing more about the 144,000. I briefly looked into it one time and couldn't find substantive scriptural support for it, and yet it seems that is a commonly accepted view of them. I'll look through the forum and see if there is already a thread about it. I see your point MissusMack08 . I too have tried finding hard scriptural evidence referring to the 144,000 as evangelists, for me out of all arguments this makes the most sense to me. The 144,000 are definitely a remnant of the Israelite people because God did the same during Elijah's time by reserving 7,000 of those who did not bow to the idols of Baal (1 Kings 19:17-19). From my studies in scripture, God tends to follow patterns he creates. Our God is unchanging (Psalm 102:27; Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17), and whether or not the 144,000 are evangelist, I know God's grace does not change even unto the very end of this age. Edit: I'm definitely reiterating what GPS said, but here's the scripture backing it. lol. |
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Post by gkp on Oct 18, 2017 10:52:33 GMT -6
Thank you all for contributing to such an important thread. I think we all have people in our lives who are not saved and yet we just can't help but see the potential they have. There are certainly a few people in my life that I lift up to God daily and yet have not had clear guidance on what else to do. So finding more evidence that shows us the great compassion of God is a treasure.
I found an interesting thing a few years ago and it comes to mind from time to time. I've thought about offering it up for your consideration but so far have felt it might just be a bit too much. But in this thread I feel it might be useful. Please, I am not claiming this to be a better way of seeing. I am just asking for you to bear with me for a couple minutes. Here are some verses from Rev.16:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs,which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
16 And they gathered them together to a place called in Hebrew, Armaeddon.
I am very familiar with the standard take on these verses. Battle lines being drawn, forces massing, Bloodshed , death, etc. But there is a little hint that another picture is being presented too. In verse 16 I think there is a translation error. Rather than "THEY gathered them together" I think it should read "HE gathered them together." If this is right, then is it God who gathers all the rebellious ones together? Or is another group being gathered together? Someone in a recent thread pointed out that a pronoun like "them" used here refers back to the last noun used.
So perhaps in verse 15 the "he" refers to each member of the group we see as the tribulation saints. I know the "he" is singular but I can see a group being addressed - not just one tribulation saint. Looking at it this way makes verse 15 fit into this context better than being an anomaly in the context. And here is a bit more to chew on:
Armageddon may have a better meaning than simply the mother of all battles. One meaning I picked up from Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary is "hill of fruits." In other words a safe place for God to gather His new saints during the terrible times ahead. I seem to remember from earlier research (but I have misplaced my source) that Megiddo might refer to a fortress near a pass that guarded a trade route through the mountains. Sorry if I am wrong here but the idea of Megiddo associated with a mountain or hill is different than seeing Megiddo the plain where several big battles were fought.
Thank you for listening to these ideas. I am not promoting them as the right way to see the verses - just seeing another picture of a faithful God watching out for His people.
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