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Post by Gary on Aug 30, 2017 14:07:34 GMT -6
Here is the one I was thinking of... this is a very awake sister in The Netherlands: boinnk.nl/ |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 30, 2017 14:13:43 GMT -6
How interesting ... check this out .... 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
Heaven in verse one and verse three are 100% the same
οὐρανῷ ouranō by heaven (in heaven)
===========================================================
however, heaven in verse 4 is slightly different
οὐρανοῦ ouranou of the air, (also heaven)
The first two heavens are Dative or CASE Dative (need an Greek expert here)
from what I can tell they mean "especially impersonal location" or "Instrumental Locative"
(in other words the MEAN a Location)
Whereas in verse 4 Genitive or Case Genitive and means origin kind, possession
seems to imply the "STARS" where in ownership or possession of the area being defined as heaven.
=================================================================
What that means (if anything) is beyond me right now.... but thought to pass on this difference.....
Thanks for that. Language arts was never my strong suit. I note that in the first case, it is 'in heaven' and in the second it is 'of heaven'; so it makes sense that the first is location, and the second indicates possession ( 'heaven's stars'). Noting that the root word is the same for both, I would point out that it would be helpful if you could address 'another' since it now would make even more sense (triple confirmation) that the word 'heaven' is of the same type as verses 1-2. |
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Post by kjs on Aug 30, 2017 14:41:32 GMT -6
How interesting ... check this out .... 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
Noting that the root word is the same for both, I would point out that it would be helpful if you could address 'another' since it now would make even more sense (triple confirmation) that the word 'heaven' is of the same type as verses 1-2. As you already pointed out -- "another" -- simply means similar in type -- or in other words -- the "other" is a sign -- it is just not a great sign..... Have to be very carefully here -- several translations insert the word "THEN" -- when it (the word) is not in the original language The word is a conjunction word -- and basically means "ALSO" or possibly "AND" There does not appear to be a time factor here ... meaning first sign one and then sign two (other than how they are given in order) It appears they can happen together (at same time) or one after the other ..... but by the time verse 5 rolls around .... the dragon has to be in front of the woman -- to devour the child..... =========
Thought just occurred to me .... IF the first SIGN is Great (and we are told it is) could it simply mean the SIGN will be very noticeable -- whereas the second sign (not being great) .... will be hidden in some way ... and only becomes visible to those who are really searching for it? |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Aug 30, 2017 14:46:43 GMT -6
I'm so sorry! All that wasn't meant for you. Mainly only the part about the questions you listed, that those sounded like spiritual attack to me. After that I just kept on typing what my mind was thinking (I always do that). Not towards you but just my thoughts in general. God gives us all different gifts and if your church doesn't like it... oh well... who cares what they think! Absolutely though, you should only ever share what you are comfortable in sharing. And some things are meant to be between you and Jesus only. For me it's like that too, and for everyone who believes in Him.  I can't wait to meet everyone too! It's going to be so wonderful! Oh I understood it wasn't all for me! That's why I had wanted to copy and paste just the parts that I thought were. Maybe be the reason you thought my questions were spiritual attack was because I didn't provide my answers to them. They weren't accusatory, like a demon questioning my beliefs. There are no "glaring holes" in my belief in salvation through grace by faith. God does work logically, consistently, and with authority. The questions were from the Holy Spirit as a means to streamline my thinking back to completely trusting God that these signs are His, whether I know the exact meaning of them or not. |
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Post by yardstick on Aug 30, 2017 14:49:46 GMT -6
Noting that the root word is the same for both, I would point out that it would be helpful if you could address 'another' since it now would make even more sense (triple confirmation) that the word 'heaven' is of the same type as verses 1-2. As you already pointed out -- "another" -- simply means similar in type -- or in other words -- the "other" is a sign -- it is just not a great sign..... Have to be very carefully here -- several translations insert the word "THEN" -- when it (the word) is not in the original language The word is a conjunction word -- and basically means "ALSO" or possibly "AND" There does not appear to be a time factor here ... meaning first sign one and then sign two (other than how they are given in order) It appears they can happen together (at same time) or one after the other ..... but by the time verse 5 rolls around .... the dragon has to be in front of the woman -- to devour the child..... =========
Thought just occurred to me .... IF the first SIGN is Great (and we are told it is) could it simply mean the SIGN will be very noticeable -- whereas the second sign (not being great) .... will be hidden in some way ... and only becomes visible to those who are really searching for it? I agree. Hence my speculation that it could be a 'routine' celestial event like the Draconids, or an asteroid that passes by on 10/12 (since the 'birth' doesn't occur til 10/15)... Why would the first sign be 'great'? Because it involves the Sun, the Moon and four planets! But the Rev 12:3-4 sign is just a plain old sign. No Sun, no Moon, no(t likely any) planets... Another thought just occurred to me: What if the harpazo occurred before the dragon stood before the woman? The passage indicates the dragon stands before the woman as she is about to give birth; and we hypothesize that the harpazo occurs prior to the birth. But we do not know if the harpazo occurs prior to the dragon taking up his position? |
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 30, 2017 19:48:18 GMT -6
How interesting ... check this out .... 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
Heaven in verse one and verse three are 100% the same
οὐρανῷ ouranō by heaven (in heaven)
===========================================================
however, heaven in verse 4 is slightly different
οὐρανοῦ ouranou of the air, (also heaven)
The first two heavens are Dative or CASE Dative (need an Greek expert here)
from what I can tell they mean "especially impersonal location" or "Instrumental Locative"
(in other words the MEAN a Location)
Whereas in verse 4 Genitive or Case Genitive and means origin kind, possession
seems to imply the "STARS" where in ownership or possession of the area being defined as heaven.
=================================================================
What that means (if anything) is beyond me right now.... but thought to pass on this difference.....
I think that is a significant find, KJS, but I don't know quite enough about it to say intelligently what it means, though I do have an idea. |
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doc
New Member
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Post by doc on Aug 31, 2017 14:08:58 GMT -6
Thank you silentnight. Thanks for starting the worship service going on in my heart right now!
"Blessed be his name in all the earth. Blessed be the voice of the one that was and is and always shall be. My soul sings in words I cannot express and my heart cries out to the heavens, come Lord Jesus. Come! In all the days, since the beginning of man until now, you Lord have seen them and have made them dance according to the course of your will. You have brought forth the righteous in their time and have gathered together the weak and humble in their time of need. You alone are God and you alone have saved us. Let us walk in the testimony of your name and in the truth that you have shined down upon us. Amen!".......
......O Lord my God,
When I in awesome wonder
Consider all
The world Thy Hand hath made,
I see the stars,
I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy pow'r throughout
The universe displayed;
Then sings my soul,
My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art!
How great Thou art!
Then sings my soul,
My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art!
How great Thou art!
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Post by Natalie on Aug 31, 2017 15:47:10 GMT -6
I love that hymn!
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 31, 2017 22:28:36 GMT -6
It was always one of my favorite hymns, growing up-- #9 in our hymnal. When I was about 6 years old, I requested that hymn when a visiting preacher was speaking at our church. He said he didn't know that hymn, so he needed me to come up and help him lead it. I was happy to oblige. |
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Post by socalexile on Sept 1, 2017 3:32:25 GMT -6
Thank you silentnight. Thanks for starting the worship service going on in my heart right now! "Blessed be his name in all the earth. Blessed be the voice of the one that was and is and always shall be. My soul sings in words I cannot express and my heart cries out to the heavens, come Lord Jesus. Come! In all the days, since the beginning of man until now, you Lord have seen them and have made them dance according to the course of your will. You have brought forth the righteous in their time and have gathered together the weak and humble in their time of need. You alone are God and you alone have saved us. Let us walk in the testimony of your name and in the truth that you have shined down upon us. Amen!"....... ......O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder Consider all The world Thy Hand hath made, I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, Thy pow'r throughout The universe displayed; Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee, How great Thou art! How great Thou art! Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee, How great Thou art! How great Thou art! A bit of it sung at St. Anne's in Israel: |
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Post by tiffanybw on Sept 3, 2017 0:22:55 GMT -6
How interesting ... check this out .... 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it.
Heaven in verse one and verse three are 100% the same
οὐρανῷ ouranō by heaven (in heaven)
===========================================================
however, heaven in verse 4 is slightly different
οὐρανοῦ ouranou of the air, (also heaven)
The first two heavens are Dative or CASE Dative (need an Greek expert here)
from what I can tell they mean "especially impersonal location" or "Instrumental Locative"
(in other words the MEAN a Location)
Whereas in verse 4 Genitive or Case Genitive and means origin kind, possession
seems to imply the "STARS" where in ownership or possession of the area being defined as heaven.
=================================================================
What that means (if anything) is beyond me right now.... but thought to pass on this difference.....
Just thinking, and no idea if these thoughts are accurate or not. The first 2 verses though, they use the same word for "heaven", and they also both say "in" heaven. The third use though, a different word is used for "heaven". Also, it says "of" heaven instead of "in" heaven. So maybe, the first two times it is used, it indicates that these, both the woman... and then whatever the wonder is (because in verse 3 it first says "and there appeared another wonder in heaven;". Then it says: "and behold a great red dragon"). Because of the way it is worded in verse 3, we don't know for sure if there first is another wonder, that is not mentioned exactly what it is. And then after that, then "behold a great red dragon". OR: The wonder that is being talked about in verse 3 actually IS the dragon. One of those two things is the case. But verse 4 says "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:"Different word used for "heaven", and also the word "of" instead of the word "in". Assuming that the third part of the stars of heaven are the same as the 1/3 of the angels whom have followed Satan... Just that originally they were "in" heaven. But not so anymore. They are not "in" i.e. "not included with that which is IN heaven". They are still there though, and so for right now they are not "in" heaven but they are still "of" heaven. Temporarily. Because they have already fallen spiritually, they have already made their choice to follow Satan (the dragon). They just haven't fallen physically yet and so for right now they are still "of" heaven. Once Satan draws them with his tail though, they will be cast down with him and they will no longer be "of heaven" anymore. That which is "in" heaven though, is a permanent part and IN heaven, which is more than/is different than OF heaven. If interpreting it that way, it would also lead me to the belief that the first part of verse 3 that states there appeared another wonder in heaven... just that that "wonder" is just like the woman, is IN heaven. Whereas the dragon (Satan) would not be "in heaven" but would be just like the 1/3 of the fallen stars/angels... OF heaven. Not IN it though. So... maybe before we will see the red dragon, we will see some other wonder "in" heaven, something unknown that for whatever reason is not mentioned exactly what this wonder is; and that comes before the part of the verse that says: "and behold a great red dragon"?Edit: Maybe, the wonder that appears that is not mentioned exactly what it is is us, the man child? Not saying for sure, but it makes sense, given that the woman is travailing in labor and paining to be delivered, that then she will have the baby, the man child! I hope this is what it means!!! Edit Again: Or maybe it is our Head, Jesus who appears to be there for when the "Body" is delivered. Jesus coming to get us! And no one will see Him except those of us who are watching!!! Edit Again Again: Also, just saying, Satan is the prince "of the air". Ephesians 2:2!!! "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"
Read ALL of Ephesians 2. Verse 1. And I'm still reading it now... The first verse, when a baby first starts moving around in the womb and the mom can feel it, that is called quickening. Ephesians 2:1 says: "And you He hath quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"Ephesians 2:5-6 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" |
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Post by MissusMack08 on Sept 3, 2017 6:36:35 GMT -6
Fascinating, Tiffany!
The Rev 12:3-4 verses are tricky. If we compare all three "wonders in heaven" in the book of Rev we see:
12:1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.
12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads.
15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
All three verses follow a common formula: Sign in heaven + quality of sign + description of sign
The "quality" of 12:1 is "great;" 12:3, "behold!" — maybe the sudden and unexpectedness of the appearing; and 15:1, "great and marvelous."
I think because all three verses follow that formula, that we have 3 and only 3 signs.
Now, I'm not convinced that we know what the Sign of 15:1 is. There has been some speculation involving planets and Pleiades, but I don't see how that lineup would be considered "great and marvelous" and the Rev 12:1 sign only being "great," when we see the specificity of all the bodies involved in the Rev 12:1 sign. The other possibility is that the 15:1 sign is also unexpected and maybe supernatural (like Sign 12:3, there are no sun, moon, stars listed), but it doesn't get the sudden, possibly terrifying "behold" added to it, like in 12:3.
I can see the Ephesians verses as supporting the idea that we are gestating right now and will be "born again" at the rapture, but I don't know if it's prophetic to the actual moment that it occurs. I'd need to study it out a bit longer.
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Post by barbiosheepgirl on Sept 3, 2017 8:09:16 GMT -6
And, also, to get to your thought that John is seeing another sign and then gets distracted and sees this dragon thing. I think that is what you are trying to say here. Like, you are watching a football game, QB hikes the ball and a formation develops by the players in the field to complete the play, but, ALAS, LOOK, BEHOLD, here comes a streaker across the field totally disrupting the game...
I can keep up with your writing by the way because you remind me of me in your thinking! Clearly these vs 3,4 are some of the most difficult to correctly interpret merely because we are limited by English language (tho, yes, we can dig into the greek), and we have many translations of the Bible in English, so it is important to look at those translations that are as close to the original manuscripts on these 2 verses particularly...
Hope you got some sleep!
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Post by tiffanybw on Sept 3, 2017 13:24:17 GMT -6
Fascinating, Tiffany! The Rev 12:3-4 verses are tricky. If we compare all three "wonders in heaven" in the book of Rev we see: 12:1. Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. All three verses follow a common formula: Sign in heaven + quality of sign + description of sign The "quality" of 12:1 is "great;" 12:3, "behold!" — maybe the sudden and unexpectedness of the appearing; and 15:1, "great and marvelous." I think because all three verses follow that formula, that we have 3 and only 3 signs. Now, I'm not convinced that we know what the Sign of 15:1 is. There has been some speculation involving planets and Pleiades, but I don't see how that lineup would be considered "great and marvelous" and the Rev 12:1 sign only being "great," when we see the specificity of all the bodies involved in the Rev 12:1 sign. The other possibility is that the 15:1 sign is also unexpected and maybe supernatural (like Sign 12:3, there are no sun, moon, stars listed), but it doesn't get the sudden, possibly terrifying "behold" added to it, like in 12:3. I can see the Ephesians verses as supporting the idea that we are gestating right now and will be "born again" at the rapture, but I don't know if it's prophetic to the actual moment that it occurs. I'd need to study it out a bit longer. You are right. There are 3 wonders. The dragon isn't one of them though. The dragon isn't a wonder at all, but an abomination. All though, is just my opinion, and what I think the Holy Spirit revealed last night! And not just to me, but to all of us! Because if it weren't for every post in this thread, and in others... it never would have been known/revealed/unsealed. It may be a little while, I'd say I should have it up in a few hours or so. I need to go get coffee so I can wake up, then I need to pray, and then going to go to my pages word document maker thing on my computer and type something up, start a new thread in which hopefully I'll be able to explain everything better. |
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Post by tiffanybw on Sept 3, 2017 13:27:25 GMT -6
And, also, to get to your thought that John is seeing another sign and then gets distracted and sees this dragon thing. I think that is what you are trying to say here. Like, you are watching a football game, QB hikes the ball and a formation develops by the players in the field to complete the play, but, ALAS, LOOK, BEHOLD, here comes a streaker across the field totally disrupting the game... I can keep up with your writing by the way because you remind me of me in your thinking! Clearly these vs 3,4 are some of the most difficult to correctly interpret merely because we are limited by English language (tho, yes, we can dig into the greek), and we have many translations of the Bible in English, so it is important to look at those translations that are as close to the original manuscripts on these 2 verses particularly... Hope you got some sleep! Yes! You are exactly right and exactly like this and like what you posted in the thread you linked! I did eventually get sleep. Now to start a new thread and hopefully explain better. I'm going to pray before I write it and would love if everyone could pray for me too that The Holy Spirit would work through me so that I'm able to explain properly. He is coming so, so soon!!!! Ok... off to go get ready and write this. |
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