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Post by bruce on Aug 9, 2017 9:37:53 GMT -6
Hi all. Many of us watchers who have focused in on the sign of Revelation 12 that appears to occur on September 23, 2017 have come across the work of Michael Svigel of Dallas Theological Seminary who argues persuasively that the pre-tribulation rapture is depicted in Revelation chapter 12. It looks like two days ago he strongly rebuked those who have used his work in connection with that date. Many of his arguments are similar to others we have heard from people trying to "debunk" the sign, but his are notable since they come from a man who has been so frequently cited by the watcher community. I have yet to see anyone at Unsealed or the other Revelation 12 watcher blogs comment on this rebuke, but I would love to hear what others have to say: www.retrochristianity.org/2017/08/07/once-again-i-reject-and-repudiate-all-date-setting-and-astrallegory/ |
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Post by Jeff on Aug 9, 2017 10:13:26 GMT -6
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Bruce. Wow, I could really sense the anger in his words, and I'm baffled that he would say we cannot even know the generation. That's just silly and indicates to me that he's really bothered by all the emails, Facebook posts, etc. But the truth is, this is not going away, and it's not just a few crack-pots out there promoting what many believe is a literal fulfillment rather than an allegory.
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Post by Gary on Aug 9, 2017 10:37:50 GMT -6
The funny thing is, his arguments still stand and he's not the only one espousing them. Darby, Ironside, and Missler all shared similar Scriptural arguments. That should tell us something. It could be Svigel is concerned with the limelight and the implications for his reputation if nothing were to happen, but I really can't guess at his heart.
Jeff is right about this - it's not going away. Svigel may have had great arguments for why the male child is the Church, but his dismissal of the astronomical alignment on 9/23 is not persuasive or well-argued.
One thing I will say, Svigel's response is certainly discouraging. Not because of the persuasiveness of his articles, but because of his ungodly, angry, and dismissive tone. Not telltale signs of being yielded to the Spirit while writing that article.
It would be interesting to further explore his claim that Rev. 12:1-2 is merely a reference back to Joseph's dream.
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Post by Natalie on Aug 9, 2017 10:43:13 GMT -6
Wow, he uses some harsh words. We should be banned and shunned for this? That it is blasphemous? I'm sad for him. So much anger over something that is absolutely amazing. He must also be blind to all the other signs for the season that we are in.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 10:59:11 GMT -6
Would be interesting to know his opinion on the Star of Bethlehem and other "astrallegory" events of the past...
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Post by yardstick on Aug 9, 2017 11:32:47 GMT -6
It would be interesting to further explore his claim that Rev. 12:1-2 is merely a reference back to Joseph's dream. If you are referring to Joseph's dream prophecy in Gen 37:9 - versus the Rev 12:1-2 prophecy - I am going to suggest that there isn't any tie-in, imho (unless you want to count the sun, moon and stars being in both). Joseph wasn't a woman; he wasn't clothed with a celestial body or crowned by one (symbolically or otherwise); the woman in Rev 12 wasn't being bowed down to; and there are 11 stars in Joseph's dream, not 12. Joseph's dream was symbolic in content, the Rev 12:1-2 sign is literal in content. They are two completely different prophecies, regarding two completely different topics/individuals/scenarios. Joseph's dream prophecy has already been fulfilled. The Rev 12:1-2 prophecy will be fulfilled on 9/23/17. Sorry if that sounds dogmatic, but I would like to think that I am not the only person to whom it is patently obvious that apples are being compared to oranges here. BTW, FWIW, (and any other acronyms that are applicable) the first sentence of his article kinda hints at his problem: he is annoyed that he is being pestered about the topic. |
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Post by kjs on Aug 9, 2017 11:36:20 GMT -6
Actually, I love this portion of his rant .....
There is absolutely nothing in the text that suggests that these symbols are to be linked to the literal sun, moon, and stars in some kind of alignment…or that the woman and other figures are astronomical patterns.
Rev 12:1
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
Yep, there is absolutely nothing in the TEXT that even suggests these are supposed to be literal items....
except maybe "in heaven"
or except "clothed with the sun"
or except "the moon under her feet"
or except "stars on her head"
NOPE -- NOTHING TO SEE HERE .... Just move along now..........
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 11:42:43 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong on this. I have great respect for M.Svigel and his work.
But I think we all have to take the WHOLE package in considering the times and seasons and implications.
This includes (without guarantee of completeness...)
1. Israel (the most important part of gods endtime clock)
2. The signs, Jesus and the apostels mentioned (wars, famines, apostasy, ...)
3. Heavenly signs, mentioned in the Scripture
4. The convergence of ALL
Currently it's hard for me to imagine, that all the converging proofs of sept 2017 have NOTHING to mean....
One last thought....
What, if this sign is used (or better captured) by the enemy to introduce "his" pseudo-christ?
Is this a possibility?
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Post by bruce on Aug 9, 2017 12:05:40 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses everyone.
If I can rant for a minute: I know that the details of his response can themselves be addressed and in many ways already have on various articles at Unsealed.org, but the whole phenomenon of people who study prophecy or prophetic texts reacting with hostility towards the September 23 alignment is one that I am still trying to understand. This is the first I have seen of Dr. Svigel addressing the September 23 alignment. Ever since I have seen his work cited and read it for myself, I have wondered what he thought of the alignment. I was hoping that maybe his silence was his way of remaining open minded to it and that maybe the fact that he had studied that chapter so much himself would have made him particularly intrigued by what we see in the skies. That made his comments when he broke his silence all the more disappointing, even if not totally surprising.
What does it take to get some of these experts excited? Why study Revelation and/or prophecy if you're not looking for Jesus' return? When I browse through the articles here at Unsealed.org and elsewhere, I can't help but think that this alignment is a genuine sign and herald of our Lord worth getting excited about. I'd like to think that I've tested out the theories and been a good Berean, and I have found the alignment to indeed hold promise as a fulfillment of Revelation 12, so what do I see that these men and women don't?
The fact that they reject it so quickly and categorically is discouraging, but examining their weak rebuttals is encouraging because it make the sign seem all the more legitimate. As a result I have very mixed reactions to these outbursts by the critics of the September 23 alignment.
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Post by yardstick on Aug 9, 2017 12:45:21 GMT -6
I feel the need to throw something else out there that I have been ruminating on:
What is the 'interpretation' of Rev 12:1?
What does it mean?
It appears to me that proponents of the Sept 23, 2017 alignment of planets and stars and moon who keep strictly to the "it only fulfills Rev 12:1' position, aren't interpreting anything (I am in this camp, for the record - explanation at the bottom.) They are not suggesting that the rapture date is set just because the 'great sign' appears in the heavens - Rev 12:1 does not say anything about the harpazo!
Keeping strictly to the text given in Rev 12:1, prevents all the squabbling going on!
Only a one simple question needs to be asked and answered/debated:
Is the celestial alignment with the 3 planets, constellations leo and virgo, the sun and the moon on Sept 23, 2017, an accurate representation of what is described in the Rev 12:1 passage - Yes, or No?
Any other question pushes us to debate on entirely different topic(s).
Explanation for why Rev 12:1 needs to be limited for drawing conclusions about the harpazo:
1. The harpazo is not mentioned in Rev 12:1
2. There is an undisclosed gap in time between Rev 12:2 and Rev 12:3. The Rev 12:3 sign will not able to be pinpointed chronologically with the great sign of rev 12:1 until it occurs! We only know the prophet's perspective makes it patently clear that a chronological link between them exists by the use of the first word in verse 3: Then - indicating chronologically after, and the first clause in verse 3 indicating the same thing: Then another sign appeared in heaven...
3. There is a vision perspective change between Rev 12:2 and Rev 12:3
4. There is a vision subject matter change between Rev 12:2 and Rev 12:3
5. The use of the greek word οὐρανῷ (ouranō) in both Rev 12-1 and 12:3 indicates they will both appear in the same type of 'heaven'. Therefore, if the rev 12:1 sign is in the '2nd heaven' (outer space), so also will be the Rev 12:3 sign.
6. There is a undisclosed gap in time between Rev 12:4 and Rev 12:5.
7. Though there are contextual links between all of the verses of Rev 12:1-5, we lack enough information to clearly show how the signs and actions occurring in the passage are linked, other than contextually.
I am sure there are other explanations that also fit with what I have listed here , and maybe someone else could explain it better than I.
-edited to focus the discussion from both verse 1 and 2 to just verse 1. Same for some of the references to verse 3 and 4. Verses 2 and 4 are descriptive of verses 1 and 3 respectively. No time is elapsed, imho.
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Post by Jeff on Aug 9, 2017 12:47:43 GMT -6
Don't get me wrong on this. I have great respect for M.Svigel and his work. But I think we all have to take the WHOLE package in considering the times and seasons and implications. This includes (without guarantee of completeness...) 1. Israel (the most important part of gods endtime clock) 2. The signs, Jesus and the apostels mentioned (wars, famines, apostasy, ...) 3. Heavenly signs, mentioned in the Scripture 4. The convergence of ALL Currently it's hard for me to imagine, that all the converging proofs of sept 2017 have NOTHING to mean.... One last thought.... What, if this sign is used (or better captured) by the enemy to introduce "his" pseudo-christ? Is this a possibility? Yeah, Stephan. I really do believe that the enemy is going to hijack the Revelation 12 alignment to suit his purposes. He will most likely spin the birth of Jupiter as the emergence of the world's savior, his son, a.k.a. the Antichrist. You've already got Emmanuel Macron claiming he's going to "rule like Jupiter," and Gary has posted about Beyonce's performance at the Grammy's mocking the sign as well. No need for us to be concerned, though. The truth, as we know, is that the LORD, our God, created the stars and put them in their places. He calls the shots and is showing the great sign beforehand as a blessing for us...a warning for Israel and the rest of the world. Peace, brother. |
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Post by tiffanybw on Aug 9, 2017 16:50:04 GMT -6
Thanks for the responses everyone. If I can rant for a minute: I know that the details of his response can themselves be addressed and in many ways already have on various articles at Unsealed.org, but the whole phenomenon of people who study prophecy or prophetic texts reacting with hostility towards the September 23 alignment is one that I am still trying to understand. This is the first I have seen of Dr. Svigel addressing the September 23 alignment. Ever since I have seen his work cited and read it for myself, I have wondered what he thought of the alignment. I was hoping that maybe his silence was his way of remaining open minded to it and that maybe the fact that he had studied that chapter so much himself would have made him particularly intrigued by what we see in the skies. That made his comments when he broke his silence all the more disappointing, even if not totally surprising. What does it take to get some of these experts excited? Why study Revelation and/or prophecy if you're not looking for Jesus' return? When I browse through the articles here at Unsealed.org and elsewhere, I can't help but think that this alignment is a genuine sign and herald of our Lord worth getting excited about. I'd like to think that I've tested out the theories and been a good Berean, and I have found the alignment to indeed hold promise as a fulfillment of Revelation 12, so what do I see that these men and women don't? The fact that they reject it so quickly and categorically is discouraging, but examining their weak rebuttals is encouraging because it make the sign seem all the more legitimate. As a result I have very mixed reactions to these outbursts by the critics of the September 23 alignment. I honestly think there is a parallel to draw between the pharisees and the nation of Israel, how they reacted when Jesus was born upon this earth, how they not only completely dismissed Him, but VEHEMENTLY and with much anger. They HATED Him. Why? Because although these holy men had started out with good hearts, good intentions, and wanted to serve God faithfully, at some point, the things of the world, their power, their control over the people, their material wealth and riches, the way people looked up to them almost as they themselves were God... all of that and probably more... and they fell for the deception that is this world, this early life being what it is all about, and they completely forgot about God. They completely missed that Jesus was their Messiah. It's very sad. But it is the same now. Those "big people" that Christians look up to in this world and whom to many, not that they are Christ, but they represent Him. These leaders in our community, these people, have somewhere along the line completely lost touch with God. They are more worried about their followers, about being right, about their power over the people, about their wealth and riches they have accumulated by becoming famous pastors, or author's of books... just people with a certain "standing", people whom have been and still are "revered" by many Christians. It's because they have become more worried about all of that. And they are too busy enjoying all of that. Because of it, perhaps they are blind to the signs of Christ's Return? Perhaps even... they do not want Christ to return? I don't say any of that lightly, and certainly I do not claim to know this for sure. But it is the only thing that makes sense to me. Because it's not like they are simply rejecting, simply disagreeing. They are angry and they are vehement in action, in word, and in deed. Many of them do anything and everything but state that all who are watching, all who are researching this, all who see the possibility that now could be the time of the return of Christ; they do everything but declare us apostate and hell bound. Who knows, maybe some of them even do? It's very sad (oops, already said that, sorry). And at times I get angry too and I have to stay in constant prayer that I would not wish condemnation and judgement upon them like they are upon me and those who believe as I do. I want for them eternal life in Heaven. I want for them Jesus. |
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Post by bruce on Aug 10, 2017 6:52:16 GMT -6
Tiffany, I think you're right and I appreciate your post. I have been resistant to the idea that these folks are acting like Pharisees because I always feel like as Christians it is a very serious charge to accuse someone of being like those who received so much scorn in the Bible, and I fear that making that connection could be seen as condemning them. The fact that many of them have said or written so much that I have personally found very valuable in my journey of faith makes it that much harder. That said, there are very good parallels (as you pointed out) to how they reacted to Jesus and how Christian leaders today are reacting to this sign today. I suppose we can point out those similarities while still allowing God to be the ultimate judge of their hearts.
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Post by watchmanjim on Aug 10, 2017 9:58:44 GMT -6
I was thinking about the Pharisees myself. . . .
I have tried to not put too much stock in any one guy. I'm pretty sure the Bible warns us about that. One of my favorite guys, Ken Ham, doesn't seem to believe in the significance or validity of the Rev. 12 sign. At least he isn't out there being angry and indignant about it.
My favorite guys are the humble ones, more and more.
And let's never stop having Jesus be our favorite guy.
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Post by evenso on Aug 10, 2017 11:12:34 GMT -6
What bothers me about the other-than-the-9/23-sign prophecy teachers is that for years/decades, they have taught the doctrine of imminency and it's like they've now completely forgotten that doctrine.
Where's the excitement that 9/23 *could* mean something? Where's the joyful anticipation of Christ's return? They don't have to embrace the belief that it could be true but why do most of them come across as sarcastic, insulting or down right angry about the subject?
I am cautiously excited but if nothing has changed on 9/24, I'll still be excited and anticipating His return. Why don't our teachers share the same feelings?
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