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Post by whatif on Jun 30, 2017 23:38:19 GMT -6
Amen to that, watchmanjim!
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paul
Layman
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son...
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Post by paul on Jul 1, 2017 4:12:13 GMT -6
There are plenty of clues in Rev 4:1-2 about the Rapture.
1) John saw the open door in Heaven. The open door means Jesus (I am the door) standing in Heaven during His coming/Rapture. That's why Stephen saw Jesus standing for the Lord was about to comeback, but Israel rejected Him.
2) John heard the voice that was like a trumpet. There are no insignificant details in the Bible. Why this voice is like a trumpet? John could just write: I heard the voice 'Come up here.' That would be enough. We can find the voice and the trumpet in 1 Thes 4:16 that speaks about the Rapture.
3) The verse starts and ends with the words: "After these things" (ATT). You can find many ATTs in the book of Revelation and in the Gospel of John, because they are prophetic books of Jesus' 2nd coming. The ATTs are the separations of different prophecies or prophetic periods. What were the things that Jesus revealed to John from the 1st chapter until the 4th? He talked about the 7 churches. So ATT in this case means the end of the church age and the beginning of new prophetic period.
4) In the 2nd verse it said that John immediately or in the twinkling of an eye got to the throne of God. In Rev 12 we find that the male-child was caught up to the throne of God.
5) The John here is the type of end-time believers. Jesus said about John that he will remain till He comes. (John 21:22) That is the prophetic utterance because the gospel of John is the prophetic one (creature like a flying eagle). Apostle Paul said that those who are "alive and remain" will be raptured.
"Blessed are the eyes that see..."
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Post by rt on Jul 1, 2017 6:34:43 GMT -6
Brethren. Sisteren. Let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Let us not become bitter and contentious over a matter that will almost certainly be settled In just three months' time.
let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Hi watchmanjim, just so you know I agree! Sometimes debate can appear to be unloving, especially when it is done online, you cannot know from words on a screen ones demeanor. But disagreement is not necessarily unloving, and debate can be a real path for learning. I hope that Kjs doesn't think that I have any animosity toward him because we don't see eye to eye. As a brother in Christ I know that we share in His love and are both members of His body. As believers we should never allow disagreement over the interpretation of prophecy to bring us to anger. The nature of prophecy makes interpretation somewhat difficult. None of us can be dogmatic about it. Like I say, I know a few things, but there is so much I am unsure of. Yes I am confident about some of the things I have come to understand, and in some things it takes a fair amount of convincing for me to see things in a different light. I am not opposed to people working hard to convince me. In fact I welcome it. |
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Post by rt on Jul 5, 2017 11:40:01 GMT -6
I believe this is were you are misinterpreting the scripture. Let's look at the Greek autos: (to them) exousia: (power to act, authority) epi: (on, upon) fourth; tétartos ((figuratively) a part of the whole (totality, all four quarters) ) gé: (the earth, land, inhabitants of a region.) apokteinó or apoktennó: to kill ,put to death, kill; fig: abolish. It appears -- you want to stop the text at the gé --- which primarily does mean land or earth -- but can mean inhabitants of a region based off the context..... Then you STOP --- the very next word is the ACTION word -- the very word they were " given power to act upon" That Action word is TO KILL (also put to death, also abolish) The authority (or the power to act) goes to the action being called out --- it does not go to the thing that limits the authority (ie 1/4 of the inhabitants) Or to put another way, the "1/4 of the inhabitants" is a limiting conditional upon the ACTION --- the Action again is TO KILL -- but the limit says only 1/4 ..... The rest of the sentence refers back to the ACTION VERB --- or how that action verb will be done --- through SWORD / Famine / Viruses / Wild Animals ..... Unsure why you do not want to include the ACTION VERB --- since it connects both the authority to act -- with the how to act =========================Going back to Horsemen number three (and by the way I do not have a problem seeing these as a system rather than an individual) NOWHERE in History has a standard meal cost a daily wage (and a sub-Standard Meal can feed three for a daily wage) Horseman #1 -- Conqueror Horseman #2 --- WAR --- are so generically identified (in other words not enough specific information) -- then I grant -- it is possible to see these being fulfilled by many various scenarios ...... However, #3 and #4 -- have some specific conditions to be met -- and they have not happen yet. By your own admission it can mean geography. The action verb can apply to the region and its population. I am not the only one to hold this view, many commentaries see it this way. I am no Greek scholar, but I know people who are who also see it this way. I maintain that this is a proper interpretation. Concerning your claim that nowhere in history is there a record of a meal costing a days wage, I don't think you know your history very well. Take a look at this page, you will see that for a quart of barley in 301 BC the cost was about 6 denarius and 10 for a quart of wheat. The author writes : also look here for more on famine and hyperinflation: www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-venezuela-inflation-0531-snap-htmlstory.htmlwww.cnn.com/2016/08/02/americas/venezuela-food-prices/index.htmlarticles.chicagotribune.com/1991-11-13/news/9104110945_1_bread-low-prices-price-increaseourworldindata.org/famines/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/the-worlds-hunger-problems-in-four-charts-a6690706.htmlwww.physics.ohio-state.edu/~palmer/Geradstetten/Report%20of%20the%20Famine%20and%20Hhe%20Hyper-Inflation%20of%201816%20and%201817.pdfYou go on to say I do no such thing as "adding words" to scripture. It is a matter of interpretation, not adding or taking anything away. The word "people" or "inhabitants" doesn't appear there either. The geographical word used is "the earth" which can mean inhabitants or the land itself. In this case it would mean that the authority granted concerns 1/4 of the land geographically. The action would pertain to the people that live there, people who live in the land that these entities have authority over. So I respectfully disagree with you. Well I finally heard from my friend who understands Greek well, this is what he wrote to me: My friend thinks I am correct in my understanding, just thought I would get back to this thread and provide his insight. |
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Post by rt on Jul 9, 2017 13:56:26 GMT -6
Just wanted to add a couple other things that my friend added:
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Post by rt on Jul 9, 2017 14:01:38 GMT -6
This also from another friend, which I found very interesting.
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 9, 2017 23:08:40 GMT -6
Whoa---he says the four horsemen have been riding since the beginning of mankind? Or, I assume he means, since the beginning of sin?
Wow wow wow. And ya know, I admit it does seem like that is the case, especially when you include Zechariah's contribution.
BUT: How does that jive with Jesus opening the 4 seals after going up to Heaven after being sacrificed? How would this be anything new?
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Post by rt on Jul 10, 2017 16:26:14 GMT -6
Whoa---he says the four horsemen have been riding since the beginning of mankind? Or, I assume he means, since the beginning of sin? Wow wow wow. And ya know, I admit it does seem like that is the case, especially when you include Zechariah's contribution. BUT: How does that jive with Jesus opening the 4 seals after going up to Heaven after being sacrificed? How would this be anything new? If you notice in the 4th and 5th chapters of the Revelation, there is a change in the description of the seven spirits of God, first they are described as seven flames of fire around the throne, then after Jesus enters as the Lamb that was Slain, they are described as seven horns with seven eyes on His head, the seven spirits are now sent out into all the world by the Lamb. I think it is the same with the seal horse riders. Jesus initiated the New Covenant when He entered the heavenly tabernacle as the Lamb that was Slain (for the sins of the world), there was a change in the working of the Holy Spirit, so too I believe that under the New Covenant, these horses and riders are now subjected to Jesus and He now sends them forth under His authority as He removes the seals from the scroll. The Holy Spirit worked throughout the Old Covenant era, as did the colored horses and their riders. But when Jesus took His place at the right hand of the Father, all powers and authorities became subjected to Him, that is what makes it new. These seal horses and riders now have a more specific task, not only do they appease God's wrath as was the case in the OT, but in my opinion they also perform their work to fulfill prophecy and have been doing so since Christ took His throne. Just as the work of the Holy Spirit in the body of Christ is working to that end as well. The New Covenant makes the fulfillment of prophetic end times possible. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 17:00:53 GMT -6
Hey, rt, I have a question: (NOTE: I actually agree with your theory; I think it is a vaild alternative to the classical theory. I'm just trying to work out kinks.) So, Jesus enters as the Lamb who was slain. Because the Lamb who was slain opens all the Seals, wouldn't that mean Jesus had to open all the Seals at once?
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Post by rt on Jul 10, 2017 21:59:41 GMT -6
Hey, rt, I have a question: (NOTE: I actually agree with your theory; I think it is a vaild alternative to the classical theory. I'm just trying to work out kinks.) So, Jesus enters as the Lamb who was slain. Because the Lamb who was slain opens all the Seals, wouldn't that mean Jesus had to open all the Seals at once? I don't think so. The first four seals are all of the same kind: colored horses and their riders, I believe these seals go together, the riders work together to influence geopolitical events on earth. The fifth seal however is very different, its effect happens in heaven, not on the earth. There is nothing that tells us exactly when the seals were/are opened. I speculate that the first four have already been removed because we see the effects happening on the earth today, and have seen their effects throughout the church age and before (Zechariah). We have also seen martyrdom throughout the church age, which would fulfill at least part of the fifth seal, however, John sees them receive white robes, which in my opinion shows their resurrection, I believe that what John witnesses is the Resurrection of the dead in Christ which we know has not yet happened, and we also know that the events of the removal of the sixth seal have not happened yet either. There is no reason to assume that all the seals have to be opened at the same time. John is shown events that lead up to the 70th week, he is not given a time frame, only an order. He is shown events from his past, as in Christ's resurrection into the heavenly throne room, and he is shown events of the future, the only reference to time he mentions is the "about a half hour" that passes in heaven when the 7th seal is removed. Like I said I merely speculate, because to me it seems logical and makes sense to see it that way. I often wonder how much of the revelation John himself understood, did he know what it was he was seeing, he really doesn't spell it all out for us does he? He doesn't say, "hey these 24 elders are such and such" and "those multitudes, well they are so and so", and "this whole lamb that was slain, that is the inauguration of the New Covenant". No we are only given clues. We also have the rest of scripture to help us make sense of some of it and lend understanding. John followed his instructions, he wrote down what he saw and heard, he didn't add his interpretation to it. I believe there is a reason why it isn't spelled out for us precisely, and I think that the reason is that the confusion about it and its interpretation will be used by the enemy to deceive the people on earth when the 70th week begins. |
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Post by watchmanjim on Jul 11, 2017 0:36:17 GMT -6
Maybe the confusion of the entire Bible's prophecy is in part to keep the enemy forces guessing until the time of the end, so they could not get as much of a foot-hold on the church-age by knowing what was coming next. If that's the case, it is uncanny to think that the Spirit is now revealing these meanings to us bit by bit! But it seems that the enemy is learning about these things too, and quite possibly gearing up for his assault on our position....thankfully we will be whooshed up and out of harm's way!
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Post by whatif on Jul 11, 2017 1:13:28 GMT -6
I agree, watchmanjim! 1 Corinthians 2:7-8 seems to indicate that God's plan at Jesus' 1st coming was kept a mystery from the Enemy (...we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.)
I suspect that just as His plan at Jesus' 1st coming was laid out in Old Testament prophecies in such a way as to remain mysterious until fulfillment, so too His plan for Jesus' 2nd coming has also been laid out for us in mystery. |
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Post by EmilyJean on Jul 27, 2017 12:41:20 GMT -6
Hi delo63, Wow, I really like how you put this all in perfect order according to Bible prophecy. I have always believed that the rapture would happen at the 6th seal only because that is when John states, "For the great day of His wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?" Meaning Gods' wrath which is the great tribulation. Plain and simple. I also beleive that it is the rapture that triggers that big earthquake in Revelation, verse 12. I just posted a video that goes along with what you have posted, it gives the timeline and explains it from the scriptures. Here it is:
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Post by delo63 on Jul 27, 2017 13:25:17 GMT -6
Hey Emily,
Thanks for your nice reply. You should check out RT's discussion post as hers is more detailed then mine, I think you would enjoy them
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Post by yardstick on Jul 28, 2017 11:31:14 GMT -6
If its okay, I would like to muddy the water a little with respect to the third seal/horseman. Specifically, a day's wages - a Denarius. I was curious what purchasing power a Denarius might have currently (not considering its numismatic value), so I did a little digging: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DenariusA denarius weight was originally 6.81 grams of silver in 267 BC. It subsequently went through a fair amount of devaluation/debasement: 211 BC - 4.5g of silver 63 BC - 14 AD (Augustus Caesar) - 3.9 grams 37 AD - 68 AD (the time of John's Revelation, the Currency was debased by Nero) - 3.4 gramsBy the 300s the silver content was 3 grams Using John's time period and going with 3.4 grams of silver. Modern currency value using the current spot price for silver ( www.ajpm.com/silver-bullion ) where 1 oz = 28.35 grams; gives is a current value for purchasing power of a 3.4g Denarius as: 3.4 g divided by 28.35 g/oz times current spot price 17.83 = $2.14 Assuming the two pounds of wheat for a day's wages in Rev 6:6 is what it takes to feed one person for one day, When was the last time you spent $2.14 on all of the food you eat in a single day? For me, its usually somewhere between $10 and $20 per day. While mathematically, the analysis above is probably 'too specific' to be very relevant, we all know how hyperinflation works, right? Remember when gas in the U.S was $4/gallon? How was that for you? Remember during the same time, when silver was $50/oz? We all know how debasement of currency works, right? And its economic effects? Everyone here is familiar with what generally happens to prices for commodities during and immediately after wars are fought right? For reference, check out the Weimar Republic's Deutschemark after WWI... Hope you found this analysis and commentary insightful... |
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