|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 29, 2017 8:21:53 GMT -6
Hi guys I have been researching revelations for years and I don't know if I am right, but this is what I understand about the seals and the timing of the rapture.
Lets start at the beginning, in Revelation 1 we get the introduction, but we also get the framework of the entire book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:19 it tells you exactly the order that John was writing in.
19 “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.
As we see here Jesus commands John to write what he has seen, which refers to past tense, then what is now, which is present tense, and what will take later, which is future. This to me dictates the entire flow of the book of Revelation.
Now we know that the seven churches were letters to those specific churches but were also there to show us the columniation of the church with the ages to come. However another way to look at this would be that Jesus is showing each different types of Christians and showing us what needs to be done to get back on the right path. The letters to the churches were not part of the vision as we need to remember they were simply letters that Christ directed John to write, so John did not see any future or meaning behind the letters, so it could possibly just simply be the fact that Jesus was directing us what needs to be done to keep the faith. This is just how I see it, I could be wrong.
If we go to Revelation 4 then we start the actual vision of John. We are transported to the throne room of God and it introduces the Father, the 24 elders, and the 4 beasts. I do not believe that these elders are the church from the rapture that some people believe. I have heard of some people claiming that the door that John goes in is the rapture, but there really is nothing in scripture that I can find that supports that, as it was simply a call to John to see the vision.
Revelation 5 is where we start getting answers and it shows us the timeframe for Revelation. I firmly believe that John is witnessing the events that immediately came after the resurrection of Christ. In revelation 5:5 we are told that Jesus has triumphed.
Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
Then immediately after this Jesus who was slain shows up and takes the scroll and starts opening it.
|
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 29, 2017 8:42:46 GMT -6
If you read revelation 5 it is all sent in past tense, which makes me believe that that scene was in the past.
Regardless we continue on as we see the seals opening. These same seals were mirrored in the olivet propchecy in Mathew 24:
Matthew 24New International Version (NIV)
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
First seal: antichrists false prophets sent out on the world: mahtew 24:4, 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many
Second seal: wars, rumors of wars:You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom
Third Seal: famine :There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
4th Seal: death. This one is in my opinion taken out of context. Most scholars believe this means that 1/4 of the world will be killed but that's not what this is saying.
When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
All it simply says is that it give power to a fourth of the earth, this doesn't mean a fourth of the earth was killed but that God gave death permission over a piece of land basically to kill, have famine and plagues, etc. I personally believe this is the middle east, but I could be wrong.
5th seal: martyrs. “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.
This tells us that the seal was opened immediately upon Jesus resurrection just look at how when the first martyr died, Stephen, and it has just continued ever since.
The birth pangs are the seals that opened around 2,000 years ago and as we see in this world today how fast the contractions have become. The sixth seal is right around the corner.
|
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 29, 2017 8:59:48 GMT -6
Another reason I believe that the 5 seals deal with the past is because of how it was written. If you look at Revelation 6 you see that the first 5 seals all start with when he opened. which refers to the past. But as we look at the six seal his writing changes, he says I watched as he opened the sixth seal. Something had changed with the vision. I believe this was going from past to future.
Now lets examine the 6th seal
I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Again the sixth seal follows perfectly along with the olivet prophecy in Mathew 24.
“Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
As we see the day of the lord is the rapture as the sixth seal is opened the son of man will come in the clouds with a loud trumpet call.
also see Joel 2:31
Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
Acts 2:20
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
Joel 3:15-16
The sun and moon will be darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
16
The Lord will roar from Zion
and thunder from Jerusalem;
the earth and the heavens will tremble.
But the Lord will be a refuge for his people,
a stronghold for the people of Israel.
Amos 8:9
In that day,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
“I will make the sun go down at noon
and darken the earth in broad daylight.
Jeremiah 9:10
I will weep and wail for the mountains
and take up a lament concerning the wilderness grasslands.
They are desolate and untraveled,
and the lowing of cattle is not heard.
The birds have all fled
and the animals are gone
All of these verse point back to the sixth seal.
I think everyone has been getting pretrib and prewrath so mixed up, honestly I believe they are one in the same. Nothing in the bible ever says that the seals are the judgment and if I am right about the seals being opened after the resurrection then the rapture and the sixth seal would happen simultaneously. It kind of makes sense if you think about it what else would cause a worldwide earthquake except for God showing up in the clouds and throwing the devil and his angels or "stars" down on earth? Just food for though.
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jun 29, 2017 9:39:01 GMT -6
Welcome, delo63! Great post. Amazingly--you seem to have arrived at almost exactly the same conclusions that member rt has brought before us. Have you read her thread yet? Here's her thread, which includes all the debate we have had about this timing all along the way. unsealed.boards.net/thread/133/revised-view-pretrib-rapture |
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 29, 2017 10:50:55 GMT -6
I didn't read it before but yes I agree on most of what she said. The only thing that I think is that the 5th seal had to already be opened back when Stephen died because that was the first soul collected under the throne and from there the rest of the matrys increased in frequency just like the birth pains. good post though
|
|
|
|
Post by watchmanjim on Jun 29, 2017 11:49:34 GMT -6
Well the two of you have put forth a paradigm that is far different from what I was always taught-- that the first seal was immediately after the Rapture and either after the covenant with many, or it included the covenant with many. And that the seals progressed onward from there, all within the first 3.5 years of the Trib. You and rt have consistently, independently, provided us with a well-thought out alternative, and I began to believe it with rt, and I think your assessment makes me even more inclined to say this is probably the scenario that is right. Thank you very much for sharing it.  |
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 29, 2017 13:30:31 GMT -6
no problem, wouldn't it be interesting to see a worldwide earthquake this fall at the same time we are being lifted up? I also wonder if the rest of the world will see Christ in the clouds as what is described in Mathew 24.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jun 29, 2017 13:51:59 GMT -6
You have a right to your opinion. If you hope to persuade people you are correct in your interpretation; you need to lay out your case in an orderly fashion and to attempt to logically present how such and such past event represents each scroll event.
I personally think you are wrong. Therefore, I will present my case – and why I came to that conclusion.
Even if one were to take the earliest writings of Revelation as being done in 68AD (and I do think that is closer to the truth – since the Jewish Temple still existed then). To contend that Stephen was the first Fifth Seal Martyr – would mean each of the other seals would have had to be open before 37 AD (which is the guesstimate of when his death occurred – usually between 34 and 37), There is nothing recorded during those (at most five) years – to even begin to compare with the horrors depicted during the seal judgments.
Even maintaining these “scroll events” are cumulative over the past 2K – reduces the overall impact of the opening of each seal ….. these are to be horrific events – each separate from the last one.
Horseman three – A day’s wage would only feed one person a standard meal; and a sub-standard meal could feed three people. NOWHERE has these conditions ever been done for the world at large.
Let us take a look at the bubonic plague (also known as Black Death) it reduced the European population by 75 to 100 million. While that is a staggering number, it nowhere comes to eliminating ¼ of the world’s population.
WWI had over 17 million deaths – again very large number but not even close to ¼ of the population.
WW2 Over 60 million people were killed, which was about 3% of the 1940 world population (est. 2.3 billion).
Reading the passage again “And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.”
Look it specifically says they (the two horseman – Death and Hades) given authority over a fourth, to KILL – (not dominate) to KILL….. the killing would be by Sword (most likely means war), Famine (this would be at the WORLD Level – not a region level), viruses and wild beast.
Even combining these numbers over time – it does not reach the ¼ mark.
That is just two of the scroll events and there is simply nothing in history that even comes close to matching either of them.
Even combining these scrolls together over 2K plus years -- does not even come close to the HORROR that these seals are suppose to represent.
Which I believe is the KEY to understanding each of these events -- each event from Seal One all the way to the trumpets -- GETS worse than the previous one.
If that were not the case (each one being worse) -- then why is an order given for each set of Seven? The Scroll is represents by God's Judgement and His Judgement is carried out by the Lamb of God; which was the only one worth to open it.
|
|
|
|
Post by kjs on Jun 29, 2017 14:34:51 GMT -6
Looking at the first Seal only – check out the primary words describing this person….
Leukos: especially bright or brilliant from whiteness, (dazzling) white
nikaó: to conquer, prevail
stéphanos – properly, a wreath (garland), awarded to a victor in the ancient athletic games
nikēsē: victorious, overcome, prevail, subdue.
Whomever this person is – it appears they are “Unstoppable”; it also appears as a part of the conquering; they will be subduing their foes. Looked another way they will be dominating, placing their will upon the earth’s population.
Has this event ever occurred since the time when Jesus walked this earth?
Yes, you have Napoleon and Hitler – but each of them were “STOPPED” in their tracks.
Most likely this person on the white horse will be the Anti-Christ – and will come onto the World Stage as the Man to beat.
It appears Seal Two – will be the result of all the conquering done by the first horseman; A great rebellion will format against the Great Conquer…. Most likely this is the Global Conflict that will tear the world so apart – that they will not even be able to plant crops for Food.
As a result; Horseman three will come along ensuring that the common folk will work a whole day – simply to have food for themselves.
As far as I can see -- each of the seals -- builds upon the last one...... becoming a much worse situation to those on the earth.
|
|
|
|
Post by whatif on Jun 29, 2017 14:43:06 GMT -6
Welcome to the forum, delo63! I'm so pleased to meet you!
|
|
|
|
Post by delo63 on Jun 30, 2017 7:19:48 GMT -6
Thank you for replying to my post kjs. I understand what you are saying, that was what I was always taught about revelation from my parents and from church and even if you read the left behind series. However there are a few reasons that I think I can't totally agree with the mainstream interpretation.
In order to explain I will work backwards. The 5th seal says this in the king James version: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
If we examine just this seal from the beginning we start to understand some things. The first is that John saw all of those who WERE slain for the word of God. This meaning past tense. Since we cannot add or remove things from scripture we need to take it at face value. So these were all the saints that were killed or martyred for Christ. Well we all know that ever since Christ's resurrection there have been martyrs and they have just been increasing in number and frequency ever since.
If we continue with this it also says " that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
This is telling us that the 5th seal was and is a long processes to gather all of the martyrs that have been and that will be and that this seal will not be complete until this is done. Therefore we need to understand that the martys occurred when the church was formed so the martyrs would continue until the church is removed. So the 5th seal cannot end until the church is completely removed, which is the rapture.
Now what most people think of this seal is that there will be a time of persecution so severe in the future. But it does not say that. We cannot assume we just take what scripture says and go with it.
The next line "when will you avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth" this line is telling us that Christ has not judged those yet, which in reference is telling us that Christ has not started the judgment's or in other words the tribulation.
Another thing to note with this seal is if we believe in the pre-trib view of the rapture then these souls would have already been resurrected and would not be waiting for a judgment to come on the earth, they would be with Jesus and not waiting under the altar. This leads us to say that this is before the rapture of the church.
|
|
|
|
Post by rt on Jun 30, 2017 8:07:52 GMT -6
no problem, wouldn't it be interesting to see a worldwide earthquake this fall at the same time we are being lifted up? I also wonder if the rest of the world will see Christ in the clouds as what is described in Mathew 24. I wonder the same thing. |
|
|
|
Post by Gary on Jun 30, 2017 8:09:47 GMT -6
Interesting thoughts. Welcome to the board!
I'm studying this theory out. As Jim mentioned, RT has also made the case for it and I think it has some merit. I might still lean a bit more towards the traditional view of Rev. 6-7 and the Olivet Discourse, but I could be wrong and the sixth/seventh seal rapture theory does fit with other Scriptures in some intriguing ways.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 8:16:26 GMT -6
Hey, kjs, I've pointed out before: the Greek means land, not population. The fourth horseman was given authority over 1/4 of the land, not population. I can't look up the Greek currently, but I will get back to you in 2 and 1/2 hours or so with the word and definition. I have some questions about this theory too, I will be asking rt.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 8:23:58 GMT -6
Okay, I found it, so I can answer now. The word is Strong's 1093, gés. Look it up.
|
|
