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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 8:16:54 GMT -6
He gave a disclaimer of not knowing the date of the rapture in the beginning of the video. Then he links the day that Noah and his family and animals enter the ark and wait 7 days with the likely event of the rapture. I disagree with him stating God shut the door on the 7th day that Noah was inside the ark, God actually shut the door on the first day, then Noah, his family and animals waited for the rains to start for 6-7 days. Genesis 7:13-17 is one long point being made and it all occurred in a single day, the first of the 7 days. Genesis 7:13 In the selfsame day entered Noah...........17...the Lord shut him in. <<---- that's the first day. It all happened in one single day. ------------- Other than that, I didn't see anything wrong with what he stated. He wasn't making a claim of any date being the actual rapture date. He even mentioned the year 2028 AD. That would be 2000 years after Christ began his ministry, or maybe 2000 years after his death/resurrection. I still think the 2nd advent will be closer to 2034 AD due to Stephen being stoned, which would be the full rejection of the Holy Spirit. He entered in the selfsame day the waters were upon the earth. Verse 10-12 makes it clear. Not 7 days before; which was the command to prepare the ark for receiving the unclean and clean. With the logic we enter 7 days before, that would mean you rapture 7 years before a 7 year tribulation. That’s 14 year total! Since you must enter 7 before it starts. Bad logic and it doesn’t follow through with most commentaries Btw, for others, anguish and sorrow were already on the earth before the rain. Those wars, murders etc were not God’s wrath. When do we see a flood or rain waters increasing in Revelation? Look: Genesis 7:1-4 -- Stop reading. End of point. (Note the point, board the ark, in 7 days the rains will begin) Begin new Point Genesis 7:5-6 --- STOP reading... End of point. Begin new point Genesis 7:7-10 --- STOP reading... End of point. (Note the point made was they were in the boat, then "after 7 days" the rain began) Begin new point Genesis 7:11-12 ---- STOP READING... End of point. Begin new point Genesis 7:13-16 -----STOP READING... End of point. (Note the point made was they were in the boat on the first day and the door was shut on the first day) Begin new point etc..... more points .... etc... ------------- Noah and his family and animals boarded the ark, God Shut the door, then they waited in the ark for 7 days for the rain to begin. That was either 8 total days or 7 total days. I lean more towards 8 total days, but I would agree with 7 total days. So in the case of Rapture, if the Day of the Lord is 2033 AD, then subtract 8 or 7 years and we're probably pretty close to Rapture date. If the Day of the Lord is 2028 AD, then it's more likely 7 years. |
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2021 8:33:55 GMT -6
I’m sorry, but you are not seeing it for some reason. I urge you to pray about and think about the context. I’m sure you search for truth, my hope is everyone does. And this point doesn’t validate or invalidate a particular eschatology. This is why the example was also given of Lot who was told to flee (he knew) and escaped the same day into Zoar. Not 7 days earlier.
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 8:39:08 GMT -6
venge , I am seeing it. Noah represents a pre-trib rescue with no loss of family and Lot represents pre-wrath (remnant) rescue with loss of wife due to a condition like the Mark of the Beast. Jeremiah 3:14 is a reference to Noah and Lot and how they were rescued. 2 by a family = Noah with his wife (family) + children + animal pairs/Gentiles (Acts 10) 1 by a city = Lot minus his wife (remnant) + children - wife (due to condition of MoB) ----------- There are 2 rescue events in the 7 (or 8) year period of time. ------------- Don't you guys/gals just love Luke 21:36? "all these things" starting at Luke 21:6. Basically missing the entire show.
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2021 12:39:57 GMT -6
venge , I am seeing it. Noah represents a pre-trib rescue with no loss of family and Lot represents pre-wrath (remnant) rescue with loss of wife due to a condition like the Mark of the Beast. Jeremiah 3:14 is a reference to Noah and Lot and how they were rescued. 2 by a family = Noah with his wife (family) + children + animal pairs/Gentiles (Acts 10) 1 by a city = Lot minus his wife (remnant) + children - wife (due to condition of MoB) ----------- There are 2 rescue events in the 7 (or 8) year period of time. ------------- Don't you guys/gals just love Luke 21:36? "all these things" starting at Luke 21:6. Basically missing the entire show. First look at what you suggest: 1. Noah enters the ark 7 days BEFORE the wrath of God-- therefore; 2. Believers enter Heaven 7 years BEFORE the wrath of God. 3. Since Pre-TB teaches the wrath of God encompasses the seals to the bowls to make 7 years (Daniel's entire 70th week), they believe they enter heaven 7 years before the wrath which also lasts 7 years = 14 years total!!! To suggest we are hid for only 7 years isnt correct. Because that doesnt follow the same thinking as Pre-TB puts forth in Noah. If Pre-TB suggests we are saved before the first seal and the tribulation last 7 years, we are saved for 7 years at the last day. But then they cannot say Noah is saved 7 days BEFORE the wrath. He would have to be saved on the same day too and be saved for 7 days...which were over 150 days actually. Some think 190 days till the waters abated. The logic is extremely faulty. Belief that you enter safety for 14 years is unscriptural. Now, let's look at Genesis 7. 1. Noah is given instruction: Genesis 7:1-4 Specifically, God commanded Noah that he had 7 days to finish the work (he was to prepare it). In Ch. 7, he first says: come into the ark. Not as motive to secure it. For verse 2 says the command that he should "take unto thee" of the clean and the unclean for in 7 days from gathering them to the ark, the flood would come. Noah entered the ark in his 600th year. The flood waters were on the earth and he went in - because of the flood waters. This is the same day. The story looks back now at the preparation. After the 7 days God commanded him to finish the preparation, the flood came. Now look at the next verse. It tells us the same day the flood waters were on the earth, the fountains of the great deep were broken up and the rain would last 40 days and nights. It had begin on that day and the next verse tells us that selfsame day, in the year Noah was 600, the day that: 1. the rain was on the earth 2. the same day the great deep was broken up 3. at the end of the 7 day preparation 4. When the flood was ON the earth, Noah went in (Gen 7:7) Now for the commentaries. And plenty more all agree, which I have not posted, that Noah enters on the last day and selfsame day as the wrath. The same as Lot and the same as our resurrection, on the last day. Your argument is not with me, but many others. I implore you to pray about it and study it further. We have been all taught things that sometimes, are not always the right way - but sound good to put into our inclinations. |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 13:36:32 GMT -6
venge , If you look at page one of this tread, my last post on page one, I said: "Wrath comes at the very end of 7 years per 6th Seal of Rev 6." Revelation 6:11-17 as the 6th seal is VERY clear that's the beginning of God's wrath. So, I'm not saying 14 years at all. I understand that you're claiming "Pre-Trib" call the whole 7 years is "God's Wrath". I'm not including Seals 1-5 in God's wrath. I say God's wrath occurs at the very end of the 7 years... Christ's fully visible to the whole world 2nd advent. This is how Genesis 7 reads: Day 0 or 1: Noah ordered to board ark, ark is fully boarded, God shuts the door to the ark. Day 2: waiting Day 3: waiting Day 4: waiting Day 5: waiting Day 6: waiting Day 7: rains begin (God's Wrath) SO... Day 0 or 1: Rapture, then Tribulation [Seals 1-5] (Jeremiah 6:1-2 Gathering together just before attack, Paul's: taken out of the midst) Day 2: Tribulation [Seals 1-5] Day 3: Tribulation [Seals 1-5] Day 4: Tribulation [Seals 1-5] Begin Great Tribulation Day 5: Tribulation [Seals 1-5] Day 6: Tribulation [Seals 1-5] Day 7: Tribulation, Lot's pre-wrath (Remnant Rapture with conditions), ending with God's Wrath which starts at the 6th Seal [Seals 6-7]. ----------------- If Cambridge, Poole, Pulpit, Barnes all say that Noah boarded the ark on the last day, then I respectfully disagree with all of them. Genesis 1-4 says board the ark because in 7 days rain is coming Genesis 7:7-10 says they boarded the ark, then 7 days later water was upon the earth. Genesis 7:13-16 says on the same day they boarded the ark, God shut the door. Genesis 7:11-12 is a isolated point being made all by itself, outside of Genesis 7:13-16. I disagree with Cambridge, Poole, Pulpit, Barnes and the rest of them if they mixed the two together.
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 14:16:52 GMT -6
Cambridge, Poole, Pulpit, Barnes mixed vs 12 into 13. That was a mistake.
The point of verse 13-17 was to show the boarding occurred in a single day, not the day the rains began.
"In the selfsame day entered Noah ....... the Lord shut him in." <---- That was the point.
Yea, I disagree with others that mixed vs 11-12 into 13-17. Those were 2 distinctly separate points being made.
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Post by venge on Nov 21, 2021 15:01:53 GMT -6
Sorry, I do not agree with you. Scripture is clear the day the rain came, he went in. It’s the general consensus.
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 15:39:27 GMT -6
I disagree with the consensus.
I agree with Matthew 24:39 "and knew not until".
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Post by boraddict on Nov 21, 2021 15:41:46 GMT -6
One thing to consider about the sixth seal is that God allows the beast to destroy Babylon. So it seems that this seal (6) is not the true wrath of God upon the world that is the trumpets, but that the wrath of God in the seals is in which He is allowing the beast to destroy the economic system. Thus, we have God destroying Babylon via the beast in the seals and then we have God destroying the world in the trumpets. That is, Babylon is destroyed first and then the wicked of the world. Two destructions the first of which is done by man and the second is done by God himself.
Thus, the destruction in the 6th seal is the final blow against Babylon that began in the first seal. Then as the seals progress from the first to the second and on to the sixth there are attacks against Babylon that end in her destruction. Likewise, the trumpets are attacks against the world that end in the worlds destruction at the 7th trumpet.
One point of interest is that the saints are called out after Babylon has fallen as stated in Rev. 18:2, 4. Likewise as we look at the 6th seal the saints are called out at Rev. 7. Therefore, Babylon falls in the seals of Chapter six. Again, this means that God's wrath in Rev. 6:12-17 is his wrath upon Babylon that is done by the beast as described in Rev. 17:16.
So it seems that we are currently in the seals with regard to our time reference. Then at some point the beast will take control and it is then that we are in the 4th seal. Then as the saints are forced to take the economic mark of the beast we are in the 5th seal. Lastly, as the economic system is changed to a new system we are in the 6th seal and the saints are called out. After we are called out then the wrath of God in the trumpets begins and this appears to last 3.5 years.
It may be the case that seals one, two, and three are not in the first 3.5 years but that the 3.5 years begins at the fourth seal (Rev. 6:8) as referenced in Rev. 13:5. Because, it is here at Verse 13:5 that the 42 months are mentioned; after the beast (Rev. 13:1) that is called death in Rev. 6:8, and the mouth that is the second beast (Rev. 13:11) that is called hell in Rev. 6:8.
Evidence that the beast and false prophet are called death and hell comes from linking verses beginning at Rev. 1:18 that links to Rev. 9:1, 20:1, as well as Rev. 19:20, 20:10 where the dragon himself is cast to be with both of these devils and then they are again referenced in the ending of that chapter at Rev. 20:14 as it relates to the second resurrection in that Chapter. Wherein they are resurrected but die the second physical death to loose their resurrected bodies. Showing that some of those resurrected are not able to keep their resurrected condition.
All of the first resurrection have the promise of keeping their resurrected state (Rev. 20:6).
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 21, 2021 16:10:32 GMT -6
boraddict , 1) I don't want to argue against Revelation 6:17 as it not being God's wrath. 2) I actually think Revelation 18 occurs at the 1st seal. Revelation 18:1-3 is an announcement that I believe (this is my opinion) comes along with the 1st seal. Like a accusation. The destruction hasn't quite happened just yet. They announce what's about to happen here. Why? Revelation 18:4 "come out of her my people" and "that ye receive not of her plagues." This is Jeremiah 4 and Jeremiah 6: "out of the midst" and "gathering together" that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 and 2 Thessalonians 2. The church doesn't share in the plagues with Babylon. Another reason: Look what it says in Revelation 18:8... Those are the first 5 seals basically. It all occurs in one hour, or in 1 day as Isaiah puts it, or Jeremiah I think I'd have to look it up, judgement on her in a single day. I think it's a Nuclear First Strike attack, or something like it. Multiple cities, world wide. When the nukes go up, so does the believing church, along with their entire households. ------------------- The remnant go through the rest of the Tribulation and Great Tribulation and Babylon receives Double Destruction at the mid point or the end.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 22, 2021 0:24:23 GMT -6
boraddict , 1) I don't want to argue against Revelation 6:17 as it not being God's wrath. 2) I actually think Revelation 18 occurs at the 1st seal. Revelation 18:1-3 is an announcement that I believe (this is my opinion) comes along with the 1st seal. Like a accusation. The destruction hasn't quite happened just yet. They announce what's about to happen here. Why? Revelation 18:4 "come out of her my people" and "that ye receive not of her plagues." This is Jeremiah 4 and Jeremiah 6: "out of the midst" and "gathering together" that Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 4 & 5 and 2 Thessalonians 2. The church doesn't share in the plagues with Babylon. Another reason: Look what it says in Revelation 18:8... Those are the first 5 seals basically. It all occurs in one hour, or in 1 day as Isaiah puts it, or Jeremiah I think I'd have to look it up, judgement on her in a single day. I think it's a Nuclear First Strike attack, or something like it. Multiple cities, world wide. When the nukes go up, so does the believing church, along with their entire households. ------------------- The remnant go through the rest of the Tribulation and Great Tribulation and Babylon receives Double Destruction at the mid point or the end. Hello brother USCGVET, I think your analysis on the Ark/the floods, is spot on, it might be 7 or 8 days, as 8 means New Beginnings. In Borradicts Foundation of Revelation thread I explain all of Revelation in one post. It is petty thorough. I agree Rev. ch. 18 starts with God's Judgments, it is a Parenthetical Chapter. But I think the Judgments start with the Trumpets, not the Seals. Here is why, a letter sent by a King had three signet seals on it to keep anyone from reading the message, thus no one could read the letter/message until all three seals had been broken. So, God used a form of communication men use to explain things to the 7 Churches. Jesus is in Heaven, in the midst of the Pre Trib Raptured Church (we agree)in Rev. ch. 5 and is found Worthy to open the Seals among the Church (Rev. 5:9) and thus in Rev. ch. 6 he starts opening the Seals, but what is it that is sealed up? Well, we have to go back to Rev. ch. 5 to see that, to remind us what Jesus is opening, to give us the big picture. Rev. 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof ?So, Jesus is Worthy to open the book/scroll because he paid the debt, but just like a Letter/Message sent by a king, all of the seals have to be taken off or loosed before the message can be read. Thus the book also can not be read from until all 7 seals are loosed/taken off. This is why the 7th Seal is over in Rev. ch. 8 with the Trumpet Judgments. So, imagine Jesus taking 6 Seals off and Prophesying of future, soon to come events, Judgments that will only start when all 7 seals are off the scroll/book of Judgments. He prophesies about the coming Anti-Christs 42 month reign via the first 5 Seals as in The White Horse is the Anti-Christs 42 months of Conquering, The Red Horse his 42 months of Wars, the Black Horse his Famine, and the Pale Green Horse his Death/Sickness/The Grave of 42 months. Then Seal #5 is Jesus foretelling about this thugs Murders of the Saints over 42 months. Now we shift to God's SOON TO COME Wrath which also lasts the exact same 42 months Jesus opens the 6th Seal and Prophesies about the coming Wrath of God, just like Joel 2:31 does, but both come to pass at the exact same time, via the Asteroid Impact we see in Rev. ch. 8 that brings about the first four Trumpet Judgments. Then with the 7th Seal, which is in Rev. ch. 8 for a reason, when Jesus opens that he says nothing, because there is nothing left to prophesy about, Judgment is now at hand. Notice the Fourth Trump brings the Darkness predicted via Seal #6 AND Joel 2:31 ? Notice chapter 10 says after the 7 Thunders (7 Trumps) time will be no more [as we know it, Jesus takes over]. Jesus merely prophesies the 42 months of the Anti-Christs coming actions followed by his 6th Seal prophesy of God's coming 42 months of Wrath, which both parallel each other exactly. But why do they parallel exactly? Satan whispers unto the A.C. (Dan. 8:23 he hears Dark Sentences or Satan's Whispers) to WAIT for the asteroid impact that will cause chaos and destroy 1/3 of the world's powers for him. Satan didn't win the birthright unto this earth and seduce mankind without being a great manipulator and strategist. He sends the AC forth conquering on the very day God's Wrath falls. As per the ONE DAY and the ONE HOUR, remember, the Day of the Lord is 42 months AND in Rev. 17:12 the kings rule ONE HOUR with the Beast, so both represent 42 months of God's Judgment against Babylon which Rev. 16:19, imho, clearly points out as being the WHOLE WORLD because in the 6th Vial, those who God calls Babylon the Great at the 7th Vial Victory (Rev. 16:19) God says are the Kings of the WHOLE EARTH who gather t fight against God Almighty, so the Babylon that gets judged is the whole earth. I see Babylon as this whole world under Satan's Dark Rule. Babel means confusion, and getting the whole world to fight against their loving Creator is pretty much as confused as you can get. Just food for thought. God Bless. |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 22, 2021 9:21:00 GMT -6
rondonmonson , Yes brother in Christ, I'm researching the thread boraddict started on that topic, and I see your post on page 9. I've seen others argue that the Trumpets are first as well, or go along with the seals, or are the cause of the seals being fulfilled in one fashion or another due to what the Trumpet judgements cause on earth. I'm not against this theory. Quite a strong case in fact. I'll marinate on the other points you and boraddict have made. Lots of good material to chew on. -------------- Edit, I tend to agree with your points that "Babylon" is a world wide entity, not just the Roman Catholic Church or something smaller in scope.
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rondonmonson
Truth Seeker
I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me....
Posts: 186
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Post by rondonmonson on Nov 22, 2021 14:04:24 GMT -6
rondonmonson , Yes brother in Christ, I'm researching the thread boraddict started on that topic, and I see your post on page 9. I've seen others argue that the Trumpets are first as well, or go along with the seals, or are the cause of the seals being fulfilled in one fashion or another due to what the Trumpet judgements cause on earth. I'm not against this theory. Quite a strong case in fact. I'll marinate on the other points you and boraddict have made. Lots of good material to chew on. -------------- Edit, I tend to agree with your points that "Babylon" is a world wide entity, not just the Roman Catholic Church or something smaller in scope. Yea, for 20-25 years I maintained ("vehemently" I might add....LOL) that there were 21 Judgments and that those who saw the Seals, Trumps and Vials as all ONE EVENT could not even be close to being right. Well, they aren't right in essence, because they still see the Seals as Judgments that happen at the same time as the Trumps and Vials, but they were/are correct in that the Seals match the Trumpet Judgments, but they do so because they are Prophesies not Judgments, and of course the Vials are totally different, the Vials are actually different events, but they do come from the 7th Trumpet Judgment. They get that wrong because Chapter 11's timing confuses them, they don't understand the chapters Parenthetical Citation directive tbh. I learned 5 or 6 years ago to question things I had "been taught" When God answered a Prayer as per why the Church is basically so confused, and the Holy Spirit was like "Ron, you guys already know everything". So, I knew He wanted me to question all things especially those things that seemed to contradict each other. A perfect example of that is how I came to understand Babylon better. I had written a blog showing how Babylon was Rome, but after the answered prayer, I was like, let me recheck, and the Holy Spirit (because I obeyed) was like Ron, what did John See? (this gives me shivers to this day) and I looked in verse 18 where it stated John SAWEST, and looked at what John actually saw, the Vision, and it was only verses 3-6, and John saw not Rome, but he saw a Harlot which could only cover ALL TIME id analyzed right, so I understood he saw ALL FALSE RELIGION of All Time. And I went on from there to understand Babylon (World Governments under Satan) and the Harlot are two different entities. The 10 Kings (E.U. Government) kills off the Harlot and the Harlot RODE the Beasts back. So, I split them up, and from that point on I understood that if I would obey God and inquire and seek answers, He would always give them unto me because His desire in these End Times is to REVEAL all these things, because He told Daniel He would reveal these things in the end times.(That was my original prayer, why are You (God) not revealing all of these things unto us in these End Times, and why is the Church so confused?) By the way, any questions or pushbacks I welcome, it is how I learn. I can never understand those who are intransigent in all of their thinking. God Bless. |
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Post by boraddict on Nov 22, 2021 19:39:11 GMT -6
Thank you uscgvet. You said: The descriptions in Rev. 6:12-17 show that it is God's wrath but I believe that this 6th seal wrath is upon Babylon and not the world in general. Please notice that the saints gather together in this 6th seal at Rev. 7. The saints also gather together in the first half of Rev. 19 that indicates these verses are also in the 6th seal. Otherwise there are two separate gatherings of which conclusion I am not opposed to; but this 6th seal gathering results in the marriage and there are not two marriages. So I tend to conclude that the 6th seal gathering leads to the marriage that exists in Chapters 7 and 19. Since the marriage takes place in the seals after Babylon has fallen then it is reasonable that Chapters 17 and 18 are in the seals as well as the first half of Chapter 19. I think the BofR is showing two different wraths of God the first being the wrath that destroys Babylon and the second being the wrath that destroys the wicked of the world. These two wraths are the seals and the trumpets IMO. The seals being actions of man to dominate the world economically and it is there that the economic system is destroyed and this is discussed in Rev. 13, 18. The second wrath is where the world is cleansed ending in the appearance of Jesus to personally usher in his 1,000 year reign. It is impossible to get all the story line correct but some points of interest can be established of which we know there is a tribulation and we are in that tribulation now. The tribulation is going to get worse and the only solution to it's ending is the Savior coming to the earth. Things like that.... |
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Post by uscgvet on Nov 22, 2021 21:05:22 GMT -6
Thank you uscgvet . You said: The descriptions in Rev. 6:12-17 show that it is God's wrath but I believe that this 6th seal wrath is upon Babylon and not the world in general. Please notice that the saints gather together in this 6th seal at Rev. 7. The saints also gather together in the first half of Rev. 19 that indicates these verses are also in the 6th seal. Otherwise there are two separate gatherings of which conclusion I am not opposed to; but this 6th seal gathering results in the marriage and there are not two marriages. So I tend to conclude that the 6th seal gathering leads to the marriage that exists in Chapters 7 and 19. Since the marriage takes place in the seals after Babylon has fallen then it is reasonable that Chapters 17 and 18 are in the seals as well as the first half of Chapter 19. I think the BofR is showing two different wraths of God the first being the wrath that destroys Babylon and the second being the wrath that destroys the wicked of the world. These two wraths are the seals and the trumpets IMO. The seals being actions of man to dominate the world economically and it is there that the economic system is destroyed and this is discussed in Rev. 13, 18. The second wrath is where the world is cleansed ending in the appearance of Jesus to personally usher in his 1,000 year reign. It is impossible to get all the story line correct but some points of interest can be established of which we know there is a tribulation and we are in that tribulation now. The tribulation is going to get worse and the only solution to it's ending is the Savior coming to the earth. Things like that.... I'm actually not very far from this line of thinking in my study of Isaiah and Jeremiah. There seems to be 2 distinct attacks. 1) "Jerusalem" attacked first, I think this is world wide, but smaller of the two attacks. 2) a remnant runs to the hills 3) "Babylon" who attacked "Jerusalem" is leveled in a 2nd attack, like retribution for attacking "Jerusalem", this one I think is larger in scope, more world wide. 4) remnant returns and is forgiven ----- My thinking is this "Jerusalem" is the Harlot and "Babylon" is the Beast when overlaying it with BofR.... But, I also argue with myself on "Babylon" being the beast. I have a 2nd opinion that Jerusalem is just Harlot 1.0 and Babylon is Harlot 2.0. Someone, I can't exactly remember who, mentioned that the "double destruction" could mean 2 attacks. I thought that was quite a strong argument. If the double destruction of the Harlot is 2 separate attacks, then I think Jerusalem is attacked right off the bat, day 1. Then Babylon is fully destroyed at the mid point by the 10 kings with the anti-christ. But yea. |
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